The "Whats up with progression and raids" thread... (non flame)
- Thread starter BluBarry
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I completely agree with this
Avesther
New Member
I don't mean to be a stickler but here is the problem redeemed has:
T4 content: Kara, Mag and Gruul and HKM
Kara : People still move during flamewreath, cleanser can not cleanse burning ash and heal during Nightbane, people goof up the portals on netherspite, interupts not happening when they should be.
Mag : Clickers not clicking, clicking too early, healers freaking out when raid takes unexpected damage, people not bandaging.
Gruul : During shatter, people people getting to close to each other and not spreading out, tanks getting to many people close to them, people not moving out from Cave in, HOTs not up during silence
HKM : Healers not keeping their tank targets alive, people getting to close to the mage add, fel hounds on healers, interupts not happening on heals. Mellee not getting out from HKM during whirlwind, fear wards not on the tank
T5: TKK and SCC
SCC : People not in the water for the full duration of spout, adds not being picked up properly, healers not healing the right targets, Tanks getting knocked back. People not dealing with inner demons, warlock tanks not picking up the agro properly, healing rotations getting screwed up. Not dealing with the water graves properly.
TKK : People not moving out of the arcane orbs blast radius, people not moving to the back of the room, rather moving to the side into other peoples paths. Tanks not jumping down from platforms, people not getting out of the phoenix's bomb path.
T6 MH and BT
MH : People not getting out of Death and Decay. Tanks picking the wrong agro fights. People not using their PvP trinket. People who are the target of the demon spawn not going to the proper tank.
BT : People taking down the sheild before the raid is healed, healers not healing the raid fast enough, people not taking the spikes out of their neighbours.
None of these issues are solved by gear, not a single one. Yet if we can get these issues solved (which is done through practice of strats), we'd have no problems at all.
I should mention that we used to have mistakes in MC but it seems to me, that once MC was on farm, the mistake of one or two people was easily forgiven in the encounter. Mistakes in todays 10 man and 25 man encounters are alot less forgiving. Seriously now, we have gone into Mag's lair twice now and haven't taken him down in 8 or 10 attempts. Mag is considered farmed, T4 content. This is where we should be or a step backwards given the overall gear and experience level in the guild.
T4 content: Kara, Mag and Gruul and HKM
Kara : People still move during flamewreath, cleanser can not cleanse burning ash and heal during Nightbane, people goof up the portals on netherspite, interupts not happening when they should be.
Mag : Clickers not clicking, clicking too early, healers freaking out when raid takes unexpected damage, people not bandaging.
Gruul : During shatter, people people getting to close to each other and not spreading out, tanks getting to many people close to them, people not moving out from Cave in, HOTs not up during silence
HKM : Healers not keeping their tank targets alive, people getting to close to the mage add, fel hounds on healers, interupts not happening on heals. Mellee not getting out from HKM during whirlwind, fear wards not on the tank
T5: TKK and SCC
SCC : People not in the water for the full duration of spout, adds not being picked up properly, healers not healing the right targets, Tanks getting knocked back. People not dealing with inner demons, warlock tanks not picking up the agro properly, healing rotations getting screwed up. Not dealing with the water graves properly.
TKK : People not moving out of the arcane orbs blast radius, people not moving to the back of the room, rather moving to the side into other peoples paths. Tanks not jumping down from platforms, people not getting out of the phoenix's bomb path.
T6 MH and BT
MH : People not getting out of Death and Decay. Tanks picking the wrong agro fights. People not using their PvP trinket. People who are the target of the demon spawn not going to the proper tank.
BT : People taking down the sheild before the raid is healed, healers not healing the raid fast enough, people not taking the spikes out of their neighbours.
None of these issues are solved by gear, not a single one. Yet if we can get these issues solved (which is done through practice of strats), we'd have no problems at all.
I should mention that we used to have mistakes in MC but it seems to me, that once MC was on farm, the mistake of one or two people was easily forgiven in the encounter. Mistakes in todays 10 man and 25 man encounters are alot less forgiving. Seriously now, we have gone into Mag's lair twice now and haven't taken him down in 8 or 10 attempts. Mag is considered farmed, T4 content. This is where we should be or a step backwards given the overall gear and experience level in the guild.
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Mordos
New Member
I love you Aves... I get so frustrated with this stuff...
Aves hit it on the head... I'll try and explain why were are where we are tonight...
FYI: you ask the question be ready for the reply, even if it's not the one you want to hear. I'm not going to pull punches... so if you don't want to hear it... don't ask it.
Aves hit it on the head... I'll try and explain why were are where we are tonight...
FYI: you ask the question be ready for the reply, even if it's not the one you want to hear. I'm not going to pull punches... so if you don't want to hear it... don't ask it.
*WALL*
New Member
Great points Avesther
Where
New Member
I will pose the question again that the original poster brought up, how do you practice strats for SSC, the Eye, etc if all you do is trash runs in hyjal and BT? Back when I lost interest in raiding it was the same issue, every week we tried something new. I know hitting your head against a wall isn't fun but once you break on through(Domo in MC anyone?) it seems so much more worthwhile and easier once you clear that hurdle. What would of happened if instead of trying Domo every week we gave up and went to ZG or cleared trash in AQ or something? We would of never gotten past Domo, that might of been a small percentage of gear but we needed the strat down and everyone to do their job, we went from not getting him down to annihilating him with only 1 person dying within one week, we didnt get that much gear we just got everyone to focus and do what they needed to do.
Agreed with Where--we need, in my view, to be able to have success and a target, just as our MC runs had bosses we were downing and then a fight to learn. For instance, smash VR, then head back and practice on Al'ar for a while. (Or even take some practice attempts, head to VR for a break, then come back and try some more.)
ewoksrule
Active Member
There was a Vent meeting after the raid on Monday. Most all the questions in this thread were brought up and answered.
From what I took away from the meeting we are at a place in raiding where we just don't have 25 regular attenders to make it worth while spending weeks and weeks on the same boss. According to the raid trackers run every night, we have like 7-10 regular attenders and then barely enough sporadic attenders to fill the raid. The sporadic attenders are often in minimal req gear and sometimes are just learning how to play their class in a raid environment.
Luckily we have a head raid leader who takes all this into account and picks the raids that are best suited for us and our specific situation. Mordos selects bosses and zones that are the least common denominator in regards to preforming a strat, getting loots, and the stress level of the raid leader/organizers.
Running the first boss in Hyjal may seem just a trash run, but there is much learning that takes place there as well as a large amount of fantastic loot drops. This improves the raid group in many ways.
It is not that the leaders don't want to run these other raid instances, it is they are making assessments on our situation and determining the places we should go accordingly.
After attending the meeting I went away feeling satisfied with what I heard, and looking forward to Monday night progression runs from here on out. There is no use in trying to be something we are not. We are Redeemed, a casual guild doing end game raiding. We have leaders that are committed to giving us the best raid experience they feel they can, while donating much of their time and effort to that goal.
From what I took away from the meeting we are at a place in raiding where we just don't have 25 regular attenders to make it worth while spending weeks and weeks on the same boss. According to the raid trackers run every night, we have like 7-10 regular attenders and then barely enough sporadic attenders to fill the raid. The sporadic attenders are often in minimal req gear and sometimes are just learning how to play their class in a raid environment.
Luckily we have a head raid leader who takes all this into account and picks the raids that are best suited for us and our specific situation. Mordos selects bosses and zones that are the least common denominator in regards to preforming a strat, getting loots, and the stress level of the raid leader/organizers.
Running the first boss in Hyjal may seem just a trash run, but there is much learning that takes place there as well as a large amount of fantastic loot drops. This improves the raid group in many ways.
It is not that the leaders don't want to run these other raid instances, it is they are making assessments on our situation and determining the places we should go accordingly.
After attending the meeting I went away feeling satisfied with what I heard, and looking forward to Monday night progression runs from here on out. There is no use in trying to be something we are not. We are Redeemed, a casual guild doing end game raiding. We have leaders that are committed to giving us the best raid experience they feel they can, while donating much of their time and effort to that goal.
Proudfoot
New Member
Great stuff. /CLAP Aves... I don't think I could have said it but thank you for that.
Sorry I haven't been around in about 2 weeks, been really busy. Just got back from a great camping trip with my family and I'm bushed. zzzZZZ
Sorry I haven't been around in about 2 weeks, been really busy. Just got back from a great camping trip with my family and I'm bushed. zzzZZZ
Avesther
New Member
Ewoksrule summed up the meeting pretty much dead on. It would be nice to revisit and maybe finish TKK ans SSC but with less then 15 people providing regular raid attendance, you just can't do it. It's hard enough to learn the strat with 25 but every week having to go through the same learning curve with 15 new people (over 50% of the raid) is insane.
When we hit the wall with Domo, we had 30 to 35 of 40 people being the same people week in and week out. So everybody got better and got practice and the learning curve for new people was nearly insignificant.
When we hit the wall with Domo, we had 30 to 35 of 40 people being the same people week in and week out. So everybody got better and got practice and the learning curve for new people was nearly insignificant.
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Mordos
New Member
I would love nothing more then to go back and drop all the bosses in SSC and TK.
You give me 25 raiders that show up twice a week and I'll take you there.
You give me 25 raiders that show up twice a week and I'll take you there.
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
a visio diagram would be helpful too. needs more flowcharts imho.
Where
New Member
Thanks for the summary Ewoks and that definately makes sense now knowing that there is so much new raiders each time
Avesther
New Member
Gilga has gone Amish, no spreadsheets or pie charts or cake diagrams for us anymore
/cry
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
I <3 Omnigraffle so hardcore. Nothing compares to it.
I almost bought a Mac solely for using OmniGraffle.
In the spirit of encouraging everyone to come better prepared for raids I give you http://www.bosskillers.com/
Most raiders are already aware of this site, but for the up-and-comers (including me) this is a highly useful repository of information and tactics for downing just about every boss in the game. Diagrams and videos are usually available and are both entertaining and useful.
Most raiders are already aware of this site, but for the up-and-comers (including me) this is a highly useful repository of information and tactics for downing just about every boss in the game. Diagrams and videos are usually available and are both entertaining and useful.
Ralvardar
New Member
I usually work monday to friday until 6pm, so I don't get him home until 7, and by the time I can get on, its already 8. I just got my schedule changed to 730 to 4, so hopefully, I can be on more to raid. I can't get on raider status, my schedule is to erratic for that. I have been on many Kara runs, and I have almost everything from there for healing. I have been many times after I got most of the gear, just due to the fact that the first times I went, we got lucky and the plate healing gear dropped. I have no problem going anywhere that the guild wants to raid. I went to ZA the other day and spent 50g on repairs, but we ended up clearing the whole place. I love that. It does get very frustrating watching people make the same mistakes over and over. It also gets frustrating when we get on and get almost enough for a 25 raid, but not quite. A month or two ago, we had enough people on tuesday and thursday to run 2 kara groups. Lately it has been hard to get one going. I am up for whatever we do, it is fun just hanging out with everyone. I appreciate all the time and effort our raid leaders put into learning the strats needed to beat bosses. Thank you all.
I just got my schedule changed to 730 to 4, so hopefully, I can be on more to raid. I can't get on raider status, my schedule is to erratic for that. I have been on many Kara runs, and I have almost everything from there for healing. I have been many times after I got most of the gear, just due to the fact that the first times I went, we got lucky and the plate healing gear dropped. I have no problem going anywhere that the guild wants to raid. I went to ZA the other day and spent 50g on repairs, but we ended up clearing the whole place. I love that. It does get very frustrating watching people make the same mistakes over and over. It also gets frustrating when we get on and get almost enough for a 25 raid, but not quite. A month or two ago, we had enough people on tuesday and thursday to run 2 kara groups. Lately it has been hard to get one going. I am up for whatever we do, it is fun just hanging out with everyone. I appreciate all the time and effort our raid leaders put into learning the strats needed to beat bosses. Thank you all.
Grimbeorn
Tribe of Judah Star Wars: The Old Republic Sith Em
That's a strong point, Mordos. Without a group of consistent people who show up for raids, we can never learn the bosses because we have to teach half of the people what to do every time. Now that we have identified the problem, the next question is how to fix it. I know that the officers/raid leaders are working on this to an extent, but I would like to offer a suggestion, if I may.
I would say that one thing we need to do is make more incentive for people to come to raids. It seems like we now have just as many people (if not more) showing up for the Tuesday Karazhan raids as we have showing up for the 25-man progression raids. While there are several possible reasons for this, I would suggest that one reason for this is because everyone has a shot at the gear that drops in those raids, and nearly everyone who decides to WL add has a good chance at getting in to the raid. The next question is this: how do we add incentive for people to come to the 25 man raids?
I would suggest that we make some serious changes to the raider position. I know that the raid leaders have already been discussing the addition of an attendance requirement for a raider to keep that position, and that is an important step in the right direction. In addition to that, however, I propose we make it easier for newer 70s to become raiders as well. I know from experience that the current raider requirements can seem very daunting when one first looks at them. You see the requirements and begin to wonder how you can possible reach them, especially when it seems like the only way to get better gear is to become a raider. Now, you could solve this by simply making it easier to attain the raider position and harder to keep it (in other words, make the raider position more focused on attendance and less focused on things like enchants and becoming exalted with the Violet Eye), but there is also another way.
I would suggest that we make a rank for those who have reached the official Kara requirements, but have not yet reached the 25-man requirements. This rank would be called "raider-in-training," and it would be something of a probationary raider rank. The purpose of this rank would be to prepare 70s who are in the process of gearing up for the position of raider. These people would get some priority on invites and on gear (even in Kara, to some degree), and would maintain their rank with the understanding that they need to maintain good 25-man raid attendence and will be promoted to raider when they have met the raider requirements. The only real requirement for this rank would be a sufficient knowledge and understanding of the person's class and role in a raid.
Again, there are other ways to solve that problem, but I think that suggestion could help the situation. If you have any questions about my suggestion or just want to say that you don't think it will work (don't worry, I can take it), feel free to speak up.
P.S. Sorry about the length of this post : )