The "Whats up with progression and raids" thread... (non flame)

[Avesther]

Actually, when it comes to learing, try wiping for 4 hours on the first boss, 3 days a week for 3 weeks or who remembers domo!!! 7 weeks of wiping 4 times an attempt , twice a week or something like that.

 

[Lufia]

Yeah, I am kind of also feeling how Blu is. Although I'm fairly new to being back on alliance side I have run Kara several times on my horde priest with ease, not so much that everyone has such awesome gears that they're far beyond Kara. Several of the members still needed the loot but just that the tank and main healer for instance had the experience to teach and help everyone get the hang of it. Out of like 4 or 5 runs the longest we took was maybe 4 and a half hours to full clear. Basically I guess I am trying to say that although it is important for people to put in the hard work themselves, having a few that help the group as a whole better understand the concept of working together to progress and learn their role makes all the difference I think.

 

[Lufia]

On another note, personally I find myself struggling to keep up. I have been working pretty hard since I returned to Stonemaul and became more active again in the guild. Almost done getting Kara attuned as well as geared appropriately to the guild requirements. Unfortunately I took my break from WoW pretty much when end game stuff was going on pre-bc. I would love to get in on the raiding and progression but a lot of this is still new to me. Things like MC or 25-man raids are intriguing. I just don't want to feel like I am holding everyone back like you guys mentioned there are a core group of nicely geared elite members and I kind of feel like I'm unable to catch up so to speak. Hopefully I don't seem like I am rambling, because I want and would love to be helpful to the guild any way I can.

 

[BluBarry]

As far as well geared, I am refering to enough Health and AC that great healers such as Citgrad, arent blowing most of their mana to keep them up. Now Citgrad would be one of those great 70's that's well geared that choses to help out on kara. Which I am thankful for. and i also understand that all warriors start off geared like that. But the beauty of progressing is being able to help those who havent gone as far! Dez, in a perfect world, would have been an offtank in that run. BUt things happen and we can move on from that topic...


I agree kara is doable without epics, thats how every has to start when they instance first came out, it is how many people have to do it now.

I am thankful for any and everyone that goes on the raid regardless of their gear level. Without them I could not be there.

I guess the only issue I see is a raid failing for lack of a well geared toon being willing to help out. Which, had we not recruited dezmond just the night before. We would have not run kara for that very reason. I am not saying that all 70's not in my raid need to stand by to fill a spot if my raid is vacant.

I am just curious as to what would have happened had Dez not been around? Your run was obviously a badge run. Which is totally cool. You said all but 2 pieces got de'ed. Would priority be given to the players who need gear to be able to move beyond kara, therefor a tank would have been pulled and put into our group instead, or would the Badge run have gone on and the gear run been left behind to do nothing that night?

Once again, this isnt about me. I meet the 25 man Req's for all 3 specs on Blubarry. Just in general how would that be handled? I know it is asking a lot of the geared 70's to help us make a run successful, but that would also fal under the category of people being willing to get done what needs to get done to make the Guild successful. We need multiple people from each class ready with the experience and gear required to progress.

This feels like a circular conversation. I do not disagree with what you are saying one bit Jad, I also understand where you are comming from.

I just have some what if's that I have not seen addressed, but I am sure that will be taken care of come monday when atleased I sit down and chat with mordos.

 

[BluBarry]

I spent months and months learnign MC, and BWL and then again for ZG... i know what it takes and what it costs, both in time, patience, soda, and in game gold.

 

[jacobus20]

In order to help the guild to progress further as a whole, would it be doable to have other raiders take the responsibility of leading runs. Would it not force those of us who are newer to get that bigger picture of how a raid works (i.e noticing which mobs are ccable and by whom versus only dpsing [skull] [X] [diamond] [square] etc)?

This is a great point and I believe it was recently made in another thread as well.

When it comes to having enough people for raids, sometimes it's simply a matter of the raid start-time. 6PM PST is a little early for some of us who don't end a work day until just before that. Throw in having dinner and 7 or 7:30PM becomes a much more doable.

Of course, that messes things up for East Coasters, but this is a PST-based server...

 

[nattyg]

l2mcdonalds

 

[-Jad-]

As far as well geared, I am refering to enough Health and AC .

Are you telling me that your tank didn't meet Kara reqs? cause if he did you guys should have been able to to it

But the beauty of progressing is being able to help those who havent gone as far! Dez, in a perfect world, would have been an offtank in that run. BUt things happen and we can move on from that topic

I agree kara is doable without epics, thats how every has to start when they instance first came out, it is how many people have to do it now..

in saying this are you saying how many peopel have to work to get geared or just recive a quick run through kara by geared 70's so you can gear up quick?

I guess the only issue I see is a raid failing for lack of a well geared toon being willing to help out. I am not saying that all 70's not in my raid need to stand by to fill a spot if my raid is vacant.

I am just curious as to what would have happened had Dez not been around? Your run was obviously a badge run. Which is totally cool. You said all but 2 pieces got de'ed. Would priority be given to the players who need gear to be able to move beyond kara, therefor a tank would have been pulled and put into our group instead, or would the Badge run have gone on and the gear run been left behind to do nothing that night?

I hate to tell you this but On many..many occations alot of "well geared 70's" drop what they are doing to help a kara run go.... Because they want people to have the Opportunity to get geared up... From reading what you have posted it sounds like you expect the kara run to made up of well geared 70's gearing up a few people who need gear rather than a REAL kara run that is made up of mostly people who need gear and a "well geared 70" filling in when things are short... That to me = Weak Sauce/Handout.

Once again, this isnt about me. I meet the 25 man Req's for all 3 specs on Blubarry. Just in general how would that be handled? I know it is asking a lot of the geared 70's to help us make a run successful, but that would also fal under the category of people being willing to get done what needs to get done to make the Guild successful. We need multiple people from each class ready with the experience and gear required to progress.


I just have some what if's that I have not seen addressed, but I am sure that will be taken care of come monday when atleased I sit down and chat with mordos.

You say Its not all about you but then you are saying if we hadn't found another tank would we get priority over the other run..... and then say that you dont expect all the geared 70's to be standing by on a wait list just to make your run go.... sounds kind of contradicting...... Some people need badges...some people need gear... Dont get me wrong I would rather do runs for gear but.... lets be fair and look at it this way you have just now decided that 10 other players...well nine if we send one of ours over to your group don't get to raid because you want to... basically your wants are greater than theirs.... might as well put them all on a wait list to make sure your run goes..... Let me make this clear though I would rather see a gear run than a badge run but... everyone is treated fairly.... other people want to do runs.

And as far as your last comment "I am sure that will be taken care of come monday when at leased I sit down and chat with mordos."

Again sorry but I thought this wasnt all about you... do you not think that other people have asked these questions... do you not think that The guild leaders and Raid leaders are working on this stuff?

I don't want to get off an a bad foot with you... have had a chance to play or talk with you but... there is alot that is being worked on and there are alot of people in the guild.. things haveto be approached to make things fair for EVERYONE accross the board reguardless of how well or un geared they are... This is a Casual Raiding guild where there are people that raid.. people that PvP and people who just do regular and heroic instance to hang out with friends... that is what makes progression hard at times but, that is the way it is meant to be.. This is a Christian guild whose purpose is First and Foremost about Christ Following and Fellowship.

 

[Where]

any officers in the guild want access to Wheretoo for tanking when needed? I still have no idea when I will be able to get internet up here and if it will help the guild...

 

[Razilena]

And if you let my hunter go in with BM spec, I will help you in your Kara raids. She is more then geared for Kara. When I stopped playing her she was close to ready for ZA. Some enchants and she is ZA ready. I don't want her to turn into my main so I want to limit how often I play her but I will help if you need someone.

I will try to be on Tuesday and Thursday nights incase you need her.

 

[BluBarry]

Are you telling me that your tank didn't meet Kara reqs? cause if he did you guys should have been able to to it

His health was lower than the req required, but not by much i believe, as was Gorloens. But again... not by much. maybe 1k.

in saying this are you saying how many peopel have to work to get geared or just recive a quick run through kara by geared 70's so you can gear up quick?

What I was saying here is that many, many people in the game as a whole, that run kara and do it successfully, are in blues and not epics, it is very doable.

I hate to tell you this but On many..many occations alot of "well geared 70's" drop what they are doing to help a kara run go.... Because they want people to have the Opportunity to get geared up... From reading what you have posted it sounds like you expect the kara run to made up of well geared 70's gearing up a few people who need gear rather than a REAL kara run that is made up of mostly people who need gear and a "well geared 70" filling in when things are short... That to me = Weak Sauce/Handout.

Not at all. I should add that what is most important is having a person in the raid that knows the fight, as long as we are at gear minimums, we should be able to do it as long as someone knows the fight.

You say Its not all about you but then you are saying if we hadn't found another tank would we get priority over the other run..... and then say that you dont expect all the geared 70's to be standing by on a wait list just to make your run go.... sounds kind of contradicting...... Some people need badges...some people need gear... Dont get me wrong I would rather do runs for gear but.... lets be fair and look at it this way you have just now decided that 10 other players...well nine if we send one of ours over to your group don't get to raid because you want to... basically your wants are greater than theirs.... might as well put them all on a wait list to make sure your run goes..... Let me make this clear though I would rather see a gear run than a badge run but... everyone is treated fairly.... other people want to do runs.

Please re-read what I posted bro, i asked "IF" a gear run gets priority over a badge run, i was simply trying to understand what the guilds stance on the would be. I was not saying it needs to be one way or the other.

The second part when i talk about multiple people from each class is simply a statement about where we need to be at for POST kara Raids. I was basically saying we need people in the reserve slots for the different classes when raid time comes around. Just having the bare-minimum number of people will end up hurting us and i think to a point, has hurt a couple runs so far.

And as far as your last comment "I am sure that will be taken care of come monday when at leased I sit down and chat with mordos."

Again sorry but I thought this wasnt all about you... do you not think that other people have asked these questions... do you not think that The guild leaders and Raid leaders are working on this stuff?

It isnt all about me Jad. On monday when i or anyone else that is around, talks to mordos i will record the convo in vent, make a transcription or at the very least put down key points to answer everyones questions. I am 100% sure they are working on this. This guild strives to be fair and fun for everyone. I love the way things are done. I love the way we raid now.

I don't want to get off an a bad foot with you... have had a chance to play or talk with you but... there is alot that is being worked on and there are alot of people in the guild.. things haveto be approached to make things fair for EVERYONE accross the board reguardless of how well or un geared they are... This is a Casual Raiding guild where there are people that raid.. people that PvP and people who just do regular and heroic instance to hang out with friends... that is what makes progression hard at times but, that is the way it is meant to be..

I agree 100% Jad. I want to make sure you understand that I am not being greedy or selfish here. I am not trying to influence policy to cater to just myself. I want it fair to everyone who turns 70 and wants to raid. Thus fair, it is fair, and it has worked out great for a lot of people. This all stems from last tuesdays run.

There are a lot of people in the guild who wish to level slowly and explore all of the zones. There are a lot of people who lvl only to get caught up in BG's at any given level. There are people that only log on to chat with friends, or make money in the AH. There are those who want level 70 or are level 70 just to BG, and those that just want to Raid, and a mix of all of the above. I am aware of the dynamics involved in the guild.

This is a Christian guild whose purpose is First and Foremost about Christ Following and Fellowship.

That is why I am here, that is why I do not want to leave this guild for anything. The first time we prayed before a run i just sat there amazed. Everytime I see someone drop what they are doing and help someone else, which is probably 5 times a day i see the love of God moving in a video game. I have a screen shot of every raid I have been to of everyone kneeling for prayer. God is, was, and will always be the #1 in this Guild. I find myself praying for the strength for guild leaders and wisdom in their choices even when I am not in game. it is so common to see prayer or bible verses in guild chat, and that to me is incredible.

 

[Goodwone]

Mordos:I'm writing....

ROFL

Mordos:... but I am not a good writer... but I can talk with the best of them.

Believe him.

 

[BluBarry]

lol!

 

[-Jad-]

Not at all. I should add that what is most important is having a person in the raid that knows the fight, as long as we are at gear minimums, we should be able to do it as long as someone knows the fight..

Ok so even Bax/Mordos will agree with this and you expereinced it last night in ZA if a Raider you wish to be.. then you should know the fight before you even get in the instance... not down 100% but undeerstand what is going to go on... Realize Kara is like the testing ground for all Raiders to be.. You should know what you need to do and what special things the boss does before the raid starts.. Many of us when we hit the Raid have looked over strat and class specific notes and guides to be ready for the fight... MOst importantly the Raid leader would and Should still explain the fights and pulls to all those new to Kara so that they begin to learn.. If not say "hey I'm new" or "i forgot what to do for this fight" and the Raid Leader will be more than Happy to explain it.. After all its a learning experience. Learn to do this now because as you progress into the later Instances Bax/Mordos just growls at you and throws things at you... j/k... at least about the throwing stuff

That is why I am here, that is why I do not want to leave this guild for anything. The first time we prayed before a run i just sat there amazed. Everytime I see someone drop what they are doing and help someone else, which is probably 5 times a day i see the love of God moving in a video game. I have a screen shot of every raid I have been to of everyone kneeling for prayer. God is, was, and will always be the #1 in this Guild. I find myself praying for the strength for guild leaders and wisdom in their choices even when I am not in game. it is so common to see prayer or bible verses in guild chat, and that to me is incredible.

Amen to that!!!

 

[BluBarry]

Ok so even Bax/Mordos will agree with this and you expereinced it last night in ZA if a Raider you wish to be.. then you should know the fight before you even get in the instance... not down 100% but undeerstand what is going to go on... Realize Kara is like the testing ground for all Raiders to be.. You should know what you need to do and what special things the boss does before the raid starts.. Many of us when we hit the Raid have looked over strat and class specific notes and guides to be ready for the fight... MOst importantly the Raid leader would and Should still explain the fights and pulls to all those new to Kara so that they begin to learn.. If not say "hey I'm new" or "i forgot what to do for this fight" and the Raid Leader will be more than Happy to explain it.. After all its a learning experience. Learn to do this now because as you progress into the later Instances Bax/Mordos just growls at you and throws things at you... j/k... at least about the throwing stuff




Amen to that!!!

That is a fantastic point Jad. I would love any links to starts on raids if you know any off hand? I can use thottbot or wowwiki and read what other players put up for strats, but is there a few other sites the guild uses?

Sometimes the truly Elite Guild put their strats up on their sites as well to help everyone understand how they were able to progress so fast.

As a raider yourself, which i do aspire to become, should i just goggle for strats Brother?

 

[nattyg]

Ok so even Bax/Mordos will agree with this and you expereinced it last night in ZA if a Raider you wish to be.. then you should know the fight before you even get in the instance... not down 100% but undeerstand what is going to go on... Realize Kara is like the testing ground for all Raiders to be.. You should know what you need to do and what special things the boss does before the raid starts.. Many of us when we hit the Raid have looked over strat and class specific notes and guides to be ready for the fight... MOst importantly the Raid leader would and Should still explain the fights and pulls to all those new to Kara so that they begin to learn.. If not say "hey I'm new" or "i forgot what to do for this fight" and the Raid Leader will be more than Happy to explain it.. After all its a learning experience. Learn to do this now because as you progress into the later Instances Bax/Mordos just growls at you and throws things at you... j/k... at least about the throwing stuff




Amen to that!!!

QFT

and if you need to, print out the positioning or strat - or have a 2nd monitor up with it

www.bosskillers.com is a pretty good source for them; most of the videos on there are available on the guild's original sites so you can also view any other commentary

 

[Goblit]

Speaking to last Tuesday's run:

The tanks we had in our run were fine statswise. Gorleon has been before, and Dezmond has more than the 11/11 that Mordos said they should have before starting kara. That being said....that is what is needed to START kara...I wouldn't have expected either of them to tank nightbane or prince. I wouldn't have expected them to proceed as fast through the instance as the other group did with Angryson, a geared raider.

The groups were balanced to the best of my ability. I had a couple couples who wanted to play together, I had someone new who was going to lead trash for the first time, there were raiders and alts, groups of friends, chaos from people coming and going from the groups, people psting from alts, had to make sure there was an officer for Angry's group, remember what spec everyone is.....my mind just swirls when I make the groups. I try to make the groups to be successful, and keep friends and family together so they have fun, which is why we play this game...FUN!

To top it all off, I had joined a channel full of HKalumni the day before, so when I logged on and they saw me there, I was spammed with questions and hellos from them at the same time as taking invites......

I did not make a badge run, in fact the other group had toons in their group who need gear, but that gear didn't drop. I do NOT believe that you can do a full run of karazhan in blues....

As for taking their offtank for our group, his gear was about the same as the tanks we had last I looked and I've not had him MT all of kara yet either.

I love how the people in the guild pitch in to fill those last 2 spots when we are so close to making 2 runs, so that 8 people aren't disappointed.

REDEEMED ROCKS!

 

[-Jad-]

QFT

and if you need to, print out the positioning or strat - or have a 2nd monitor up with it

www.bosskillers.com is a pretty good source for them; most of the videos on there are available on the guild's original sites so you can also view any other commentary

I second that.. I usually have this stuff up on another monitor when I'm Raiding from Home

 

[-Jad-]

The groups were balanced to the best of my ability. I had a couple couples who wanted to play together, I had someone new who was going to lead trash for the first time, there were raiders and alts, groups of friends, chaos from people coming and going from the groups, people psting from alts, had to make sure there was an officer for Angry's group, remember what spec everyone is.....my mind just swirls when I make the groups. I try to make the groups to be successful, and keep friends and family together so they have fun, which is why we play this game...FUN!

I did not make a badge run, in fact the other group had toons in their group who need gear, but that gear didn't drop.


REDEEMED ROCKS!

Good Job on the groups Gobby.. I know how hard it is at times to get all these things organized.

As for the Gear drops... Gratz Kaiily!!!!! who got the Breast Plate of the Lightbringer off of Illhoof Last night

Love to see My Pally healers getting Geared up!! not that I don't like seeing others geared as well.... Just comming from another Pally healer

 

[ash562000]

okay , here is my 2 cents on this gear issue for raiding. as jad had said , kara is teh proving grounds for all later raids and i agree with that full heartedly but what people are not understanding is that after patch 2.3 came out and they removed the attunement for kara , alot of people who couldnt raid before started raiding which made it feel like teh higher geared were hold up teh undergeared players. at this same time however , we were involved in za , ssc and tk. we had teh geared people for these instences and got far which was nice to see . after patch 2.4 came out , which removed the attunement for bt and hjyal , we started attempting to go into these instences and see how far we could go but because we were still learning teh strats for these new places , we were limited to how far we got into it. i also saw that because we jumped right into hyjal , we left ssc and tk out of the picture which hurt us some because those instences were the gear for after kara and gruul's . if we were to just go back into these places , we would have a better chance of getting through hyjal and bt. thats all i have to say , im not going against any of our raid leaders here and i know they decide were we go but stepping back to ssc and tk would be a better idea in my opinion.