The "Whats up with progression and raids" thread... (non flame)

B

BluBarry

New Member
In another post a question was posed that stated basically why arent we doing SSC, TK, and ZA more. One of the responses was that if wwe took just 10 of our best geared raiders to get ZA strats down and on farm it would cripple our Kara gear/badge runs. and that made me sad to realize.


BY taking just 10... 10 mind you, of our best geared people out of the picture, kara becomes increasingly harder. We have how many 70's that raid? How many people at raider status? How long has kara been on farm and we have people without there gearz?

Do we have raiders that have gear that are no longer willing/wanting/able to run kara? I am curious. I am getting in now to a lot of the runs and i am loving it so dont get me wrong. I just want to have a chance to see things like SSC, TK, BT, and Sunwell before WotLK comes out.

I am willing to do whatever it takes. I am willing to spec however i need to spec to get this done for everyone.

We have a great guild full of great people. We have the skill and ability to progress further and faster that we have before. Let so it... Lets grab this game by the source code and make it our summoned worg pet!!


I guess what I am looking for is someone who is in charge of raids to just fill me in on why things are the way they are.

I red the posts about loot vs time, but we need that experience in those time consuming raids if we are going to progress beyond a few bosses in MH.

anyone remember how bad Molten Core was? but that XP was needed to go into BWL/AQ and even NAXX. Need more than a 10 main to really show some of us how to raid!


Thanks in advance for helping me understand better!

God Bless!
 
BluBarry said:
BY taking just 10... 10 mind you, of our best geared people out of the picture, kara becomes increasingly harder. We have how many 70's that raid? How many people at raider status? How long has kara been on farm and we have people without there gearz?

Do we have raiders that have gear that are no longer willing/wanting/able to run kara? I am curious. I am getting in now to a lot of the runs and i am loving it so dont get me wrong. I just want to have a chance to see things like SSC, TK, BT, and Sunwell before WotLK comes out.
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Maybe we need the 70's who need kara to actually do kara without the Crutch of 70's who have gear far beyond Kara carrying the load. There should be no expectation of handouts... dont get me wrong but if we no longer need stuff from Kara why should we not start working on stuff that we havent done yet.

Many of those 70's had to fight, learn and sacrafise a lot to get where they are. the new 70's need and should have to work the same.. not just because we had to... but because that is how they learn how to perform as a team and as an individual raider in the upper level instances.

Many of us 70's do still do kara even when we could do it in our sleep, and even though we dont need anything.. we do it to help out new peeps get used to instances and to take some of the struggle that we had when this guild first started to clear Kara.

Badges only get you so far.
 
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As far as I am concerned I do not expect a handout. I will go and go again until I get the gear designed for my class and my spec. I have no issues with that.

I would agree with More of your statement if there were more 70's, who fought and sacrificed, continuing to fight and sacrifice on the 25man level. I understand we have had some very very important personal matters to attend to regarding some of our raid leaders who handle 25mans. That is not the issue. And with them being back now, maybe that should take care of the problem... I will gladly drop that topic and wait till a later date to bring it up again while we see what happens. :)

No one should expect a handout, No one should expect a raid to be easy.

I say if you are done with Kara, great! but dont forget the people who have been 70 and unable to get into runs until recently. Move on, work on MH, work oh SSC and TK. awesome! Just make sure that we dont have 10-15 "core elite" that progress while the rest of the guild is left behind. I have seen that happen 6 times now in my 4 years of WoW. I love this guild, and the people in it. I dont want to see that here.

it is a problem when our 25 man groups have to bring in people that are not even close to Kara gear just to fill out spots in the raid.

Maybe the answer is that we just need more people dedicated to really raiding and progressing that are able to be on more often?
 
-Jad- said:
Maybe we need the 70's who need kara to actually do kara without the Crutch of 70's who have gear far beyond Kara carrying the load.
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and I agree 100% with this... My only concern is that sometimes there are not enough of us 70's who WANT to raid and progress online to do the run and we need and would greatly benefit from the experience that You and all of the other hard working people in this guild have!

Just dont forget us little people, help us become big people.
 
Its not a topic that will go away Blu, you bringing it up is just your time to bring it up. It was brought up a year ago as the guild was just starting Kara by people with the same types of questions and concerns.

The question at the core really is : How do we progress as a guild and be sure that nobody is left behind?

Its not easily answered.
 
I was going to write this big ol post... but I am not a good writer... but I can talk with the best of them. So,

Next Monday after the raid I will have a "Raiding and me" meeting... we can talk all about this raiding stuff where we are where we are going and at that time I'll take any questions.
 
Hey Mordos, and everyone else. Please understand I a not upset and am not trying to come across as rude, impatient or anything of the sort.

I am just wanting to understand how this guild raids better, and what our plan is as Avesther stated, to not leave people behind.

I am not criticizing anyone or any of the policies this guild already has in place.

I am just seeking more knowledge.

that sounds awesome Mordos. I would like that for sure...
 
make sure someone posts "minutes" from the meeting because we need this stuff written out at some point.
 
i'll post it on youtube and mask everyones voice to sound like robots.












who am i kidding. i'm too lazy to do that
 
I will for sure record it.

I can then transcribe notes and post em as well since this meeting is due to my asking the questions, i can take the responsibility for it.
 
BluBarry said:
As far as I am concerned I do not expect a handout. I will go and go again until I get the gear designed for my class and my spec. I have no issues with that.

it is a problem when our 25 man groups have to bring in people that are not even close to Kara gear just to fill out spots in the raid.

Maybe the answer is that we just need more people dedicated to really raiding and progressing that are able to be on more often?
Click to expand...

BluBarry said:
Just dont forget us little people, help us become big people.
Click to expand...

I am not saying you are expecting a hand out... That was a general statement... but when you say that taking 10 core raiders to do progression (to learn strat and get things to the point where we can start farming it) away would make kara runs harder... that in a way would be true because you wouldn't have people in all tier 4 and 5 gear taking down bosses that drops tier 4 stuff. As far as those 70's helping out when kara groups are short...we do I Personally have 3 70's (healer/DPS/and Tank) that i bring in when ever the group is short one, and the others do as well; So... no one is leaveing anyone behind. but.... Scheduling can and will play into that.
Kara is run Tuesdays and Thursdays (regularly) and sometimes Saturdays and Sundays... Many of these 70's (the Core Raiders as you call them) also raid Monday's and Fridays. and Try to get a ZA run in on Thursdays..

That is almost (if all the runs go) 7 days of raiding.. Many of us are dedicated... Especially to helping Newere 70's get geared... but that is just too much for some.

If you really want to make this a point then get with all of the newere 70's or 70's that need stuff from Kara and make it on Tuesday and Thursday nights.. I know there is more than 10 people that need kara gear so there should never be a shortage... If those days are bad talk to the Raid leaders to see about a different day... That my friend is where you need to focus your attention to

As far as bringing in people that are not equiped for hte raid... I am totally with you on that one... that is why we have the raider rank.. For those who have attendance.. I assure you that The raid leaders are working this issue
 
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Oh and I want to make sure that you dont think I am Mad or Evil... This is just a sore subject for me.

Example: We ran Kara last night and All but 2 pieces that dropped got DE'd which tells me that all of those 70's who need gear didnt show up and missed out on gear..

Oh and we had two kara groups running last night
 
-Jad- said:
Oh and I want to make sure that you dont think I am Mad or Evil... This is just a sore subject for me.

Example: We ran Kara last night and All but 2 pieces that dropped got DE'd which tells me that all of those 70's who need gear didnt show up and missed out on gear..

Oh and we had two kara groups running last night
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It is possible, they were there to get badges to buy the T5 equivalent gear if that makes you feel any better.
 
Just a question for the officers to ponder here...we have two primary kara raid leaders that i know of right now...Goblit and Angry. In order to help the guild to progress further as a whole, would it be doable to have other raiders take the responsibility of leading runs. Would it not force those of us who are newer to get that bigger picture of how a raid works (i.e noticing which mobs are ccable and by whom versus only dpsing [skull] [X] [diamond] [square] etc)?

I know that as a healer, I know absolutely nothing about cc (which i don't need to know) but still it would make my group better as a whole if I did. I have also been getting a greater big picture understanding of kara boss fights, but I still don't know it all by a long shot. I'm guessing a lot of other newer raiders are in the same boat.

Perhaps it would give us more of an appreciation of the work you veteran raiders put into getting kara farmable, while giving you t5 and higher players a chance to focus more on ZA.

I know schedules are tight for all of us, but maybe this is something Goblit could talk to some of the raiders who have been running kara repeatedly about stepping it up a notch.

Just my two cents.
 
i know about kara last night as I was in the other group, the one where we took 3 hours to get 4 bosses because of a lack of a tank that was well geared.

I am proud to say that Dezmond did a great job though on a very short notice comming to the raid and helping us out.

His lack of Hp and that of Gorloens was not in anyway a result of poor play, just not good enough gear. But thats what raids are for.. to get the gear. I think by the end of the night Dez had gotten 2-3 new epics, which is awesome and Gorloen got 1 more. Which means next time they will be just that much better.


I can understand why you would be sore on this topic, as I am sure other leaders are as well.

I do not in any way wish to come across as anything but inquisitive. Trying to understand, as I said, where the guild is going.


I am working on doing everything I can to help everyone and myself at the same time. I spent 4 and a half hours on the wait list the other week just to come in for 1 boss in kara.

Maybe I should figure out where people stand, find out who is honestly looking to progress as a main goal and those that are not too concerned with all of that.

I know there is a raider rank for those that have proven that already, i am just referring to those of us not there yet that are trying and want that.

in the last month I have been on or available for 100% of the raids. Raiding is fun... even learning a new fight and a new raid... all fun stuff.
 
BluBarry said:
i know about kara last night as I was in the other group, the one where we took 3 hours to get 4 bosses because of a lack of a tank that was well geared.

His lack of Hp and that of Gorloens was not in anyway a result of poor play, just not good enough gear. But thats what raids are for.. to get the gear. I think by the end of the night Dez had gotten 2-3 new epics, which is awesome and Gorloen got 1 more. Which means next time they will be just that much better.

I am working on doing everything I can to help everyone and myself at the same time. I spent 4 and a half hours on the wait list the other week just to come in for 1 boss in kara.

Maybe I should figure out where people stand, find out who is honestly looking to progress as a main goal and those that are not too concerned with all of that.

in the last month I have been on or available for 100% of the raids. Raiding is fun... even learning a new fight and a new raid... all fun stuff.
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As far as well geared what do you mean... because anything T4 and above is after kara... That is what Kara Requirements are for and.... they are very doable without epics

And as far as the 3 hours for 4 bosses... try that for 1 or two learning them..

Honestly many people want to progress I think the question that needs to be asked is are they willing to do what it takes. The guild has raid requirements for a reason... they are what you need to contribute to the raid being successful.

Again I understand that you want to progress and man I'm with ya its just that everyone needs to contribute towards that i.e. getting geared up and not always have high geared 70's comming in and running people through kara... (Again that is a general statement).
 
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