Stephen F. Roberts quote

[Marcylene]

I think you know precisely what I meant, but since you want to be piddly, I'll spell it out clearly.

Why doesn't God show himself today, as he did in the Old Testament, with pillars of smoke and fire, burning bushes, loud booming voice, manna from heaven, plagues, etc. Why doesn't he converse in a physical voice so men can hear him? To get down to brass tacks, why does he not prove himself to humanity? And when I say PROVE, I mean with real, solid, incontrovertible proof? And don't give me the tired answer of free will yadda yadda yadda, because God obviously doesn't give a flip about free will, just look at the hardening of hearts, etc in the OT.

I am sorry, MP. I hope you will forgive me answering along with you on this.
This has been answered! In the OT they did not have the Bible in its entirety. Not to mention the fact that if you will look around, ohh, He speaks all right. There are miracles all around! Open your eyes!
Do you realize that while the accounts in the Old Testament are true, they also have picturesque meaning. The ark was a sign of Jesus and His redemption. Egypt was the very picture of sin and you can read that in many, many, many, ohhhh so many ways. For the last time, God did not just harden their hearts. It was there choice and that is Him saying He is going to continue to be who He is, but if they so choose to harden their hearts, He will allow it! You seem to always take up for Pharaoh, blood relation? Really and truly, he could have decided to obey at any point, but no, he refused, nothing doing him. Think what he went through. Would it have taken you that many trials to...nevermind.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Considering that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, I suppose that would vary by how much I am in the Word of God.

Hmm, sounds like you're just shifting blame to yourself. So what Christian has/had that much, or should I say little, faith? Christ said something SPECIFIC here and you are doing everything in your power to explain it away.

OUCH! Please, go easy! I don't think it is fair of you to assume that I would deliberately mislead you, nor lie to you. I would be in hopes that you know me better than that!
Yes sir, that was His intentions. But think about this:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. II Peter 3:9

Well hopefully you know me well enough to know I wasn't trying to be rude, but rather, trying to get you to address the topic headon, which, unfortunately, you have not done. What you have said regarding the Ark story is just plain WRONG. 2Pet 3:9 does nothing to correct your statement either. I'm sorry Marcy, but your statement was INCORRECT, God had absolutely NO intention of saving anyone other than Noah's family or looking for repentance.

When God pulls out His vials of wrath, it is not spur of the moment. He weeps for us. He yearns for us. He loves us.
Genesis 6:9 Noah walked with God and Noah was a preacher:
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; II Peter 2:5

Consider the times. There were sacrifices, preaching, building, gathering the animals, ect. There are things that we can read between the lines, and no, DV, I do not mean in an attempt to misconstrue anything, I mean simply...well, reading between the lines!

But you're reading into something that isn't there. God gave Noah SPECIFIC instructions and NOWHERE did he say to preach to others to have them repent. GOD DID NOT WARN MAN, NOR DID HE HAVE ANY INTENTION THEREOF.

I will go with that. But I also know a bit about the One I love, and He gave them all a chance. I would stake my life on it, DV.

Pretty please sir, if you will, pass the band-aids!

What chance did he give them Marcy? HE GAVE THEM NONE! Stop trying to fool yourself, or more importantly, ME, to believe otherwise.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I am sorry, MP. I hope you will forgive me answering along with you on this.
This has been answered! In the OT they did not have the Bible in its entirety. Not to mention the fact that if you will look around, ohh, He speaks all right. There are miracles all around! Open your eyes!
Do you realize that while the accounts in the Old Testament are true, they also have picturesque meaning. The ark was a sign of Jesus and His redemption. Egypt was the very picture of sin and you can read that in many, many, many, ohhhh so many ways. For the last time, God did not just harden their hearts. It was there choice and that is Him saying He is going to continue to be who He is, but if they so choose to harden their hearts, He will allow it! You seem to always take up for Pharaoh, blood relation? Really and truly, he could have decided to obey at any point, but no, he refused, nothing doing him. Think what he went through. Would it have taken you that many trials to...nevermind.

I take up for Pharaoh because of the lies spread about him. God had NO intention of letting Pharaoh off easy. How can you say that God didn't harden his heart when the Bible specifically says so??? This is another product of your subjective reading. You say he could have decided to obey at any point, but that is an outright LIE. How could he when God was hardening his heart???

 

[Priceless3110]

But you're reading into something that isn't there. God gave Noah SPECIFIC instructions and NOWHERE did he say to preach to others to have them repent. GOD DID NOT WARN MAN, NOR DID HE HAVE ANY INTENTION THEREOF.

You are right not once in the whole chapter did he tell them to preach repentance. This is why

"Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

Only one man found grace in the eyes of God: Noah (Gen 6:8).

God needed to start over. He needed to get the wickedness out of the Earth so that he could renew His covenant with His people, His creation. He had a plan and that plan was to redeem His creation through His son Jesus Christ. God knows mans heart. He knew that those people were wicked and had evil intentions.

 

[Master~Plan]

You use logic in every aspect of your life EXCEPT when it comes to believing/relying on something that can't be proven by logic.

sure, if seeing something happen, doesn't constitue "logical" deductions...
like I said, your not specific, and I don't know what your talking about.

Sorry bub

heh, you crack me up

So is it literal or not? Not SOUNDS literal, is it or not?

I clearly said it was figurative, if your not reading my posts, theres no point in saying more

Sorry bub, but you can't logically conclude ANYTHING in the bible.

thats quite a blanket statement you threw there...

This isn't about what Christ did, it's about what Christ said believers could do with a miniscule amount of faith.

looks like you went from asking to telling.

If it's literal, then believers should either be able to do the miraculous or faith is INCREDIBLY difficult to come by, so much so that the majority of Christians fail to acheive even a mustard seed's worth. If it's figurative, well, then who cares since you can make it say whatever you want.

I care about Christs analogies, and I"m quite safe in saying I'm not the only one.

EH? The verse is about eternal life? Now that's some creative thinking.

like I said, if your not reading my posts, theres no point in saying more. The verse is about doing things that seem impossible. I made one relation to eternal life because eternal life seems impossible. Creative thinking? for some I'm sure it qualifies.

Why doesn't God show himself today, as he did in the Old Testament, with pillars of smoke and fire, burning bushes, loud booming voice, manna from heaven, plagues, etc. Why doesn't he converse in a physical voice so men can hear him? To get down to brass tacks, why does he not prove himself to humanity? And when I say PROVE, I mean with real, solid, incontrovertible proof? And don't give me the tired answer of free will yadda yadda yadda, because God obviously doesn't give a flip about free will, just look at the hardening of hearts, etc in the OT.

Looks like you have had your question answered before and you don't like the answeres. Heres what the Bible has to say: Luke 16:19-end of chapter(the key verse being the last)

 

[Dark Virtue]

You are right not once in the whole chapter did he tell them to preach repentance. This is why

"Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

Only one man found grace in the eyes of God: Noah (Gen 6:8).

God needed to start over. He needed to get the wickedness out of the Earth so that he could renew His covenant with His people, His creation. He had a plan and that plan was to redeem His creation through His son Jesus Christ. God knows mans heart. He knew that those people were wicked and had evil intentions.

See Marcy?

 

[Dark Virtue]

sure, if seeing something happen, doesn't constitue "logical" deductions...
like I said, your not specific, and I don't know what your talking about.

I love it when you play coy.

heh, you crack me up
I clearly said it was figurative, if your not reading my posts, theres no point in saying more

Promises, promises. Need I post the definition of CLEARLY?

I also asked how to distinguish between literal and figurative, I guess you didn't read that part of my post.

thats quite a blanket statement you threw there...

I guess I'm not allowed to use literary agents.

looks like you went from asking to telling.

Looks clear to me.

I care about Christs analogies, and I"m quite safe in saying I'm not the only one.

Ok...are you saying this was an analogy? Please don't make me define analogy.

like I said, if your not reading my posts, theres no point in saying more. The verse is about doing things that seem impossible. I made one relation to eternal life because eternal life seems impossible. Creative thinking? for some I'm sure it qualifies.

If you believe this is a figurative story, tell me why you don't believe it's literal. I ask because I could find a gaggle of Christians that disagree with you.

Looks like you have had your question answered before and you don't like the answeres. Heres what the Bible has to say: Luke 16:19-end of chapter(the key verse being the last)

I don't like answers that don't make sense.

I'll see your verse and raise you one:

I Thessalonians 5:21

 

[Marcylene]

See Marcy?

No sir, I do not see it that way. No offence! He was a preacher and he walked with God, I promise you, he was a preacher that preached it on!!!

 

[Master~Plan]

I love it when you play coy.

call me what you will, when your ready to tell me where I"m bieng illogical, by all means...

Promises, promises. Need I post the definition of CLEARLY?

I also asked how to distinguish between literal and figurative, I guess you didn't read that part of my post.

Jesus did not act literally on it. Jesus never moved a mountain while in human form, or throw any trees into the ocean. So we can logically conclude that since he finished casting out a demon when he told the analogy, that it pertains to saving the lost.

The verse is not talking about diverting natural disaster

I guess I'm not allowed to use literary agents.

its more along the lines that your statements don't hold much wieght if you include words such as "anything" "always" "never" etc etc...

Ok...are you saying this was an analogy? Please don't make me define analogy.

too quick to point the finger and call others piddly?
analogy:

n 1: an inference that if things agree in some respects they probably agree in others
(right from dictionary.com)

yes, DV, I would also call it figurative... can we move on?

If you believe this is a figurative story, tell me why you don't believe it's literal. I ask because I could find a gaggle of Christians that disagree with you.

Jesus did not act literally on it.

If you could find a gaggle of Christians that disagree with me, then argue with them. I said I do not take it literally because Jesus did not act literally on it.

as far as I Thessalonians 5:21 I don't have time to post on that now. You must take the Bible in context if your going to cite it. Taking a small fragment, it not substantial citation. I used the majority of a chapter so you would understand the whole context of the one key verse. If I take fragments from the Bible I could derive all sorts of things. I"ll post further on that verse later.

 

[Dark Virtue]

No sir, I do not see it that way. No offence! He was a preacher and he walked with God, I promise you, he was a preacher that preached it on!!!

Ok, so you say he was a preacher.

When did he preach if he spent all day, every day building the ark?

How far did he travel to preach? How many people could he have possibly reached?

I have already shown you verses to show that God had no intention of warning anyone other than Noah, let alone the entire planet. Why do you continue to believe contrary to what the bible says?

 

[Dark Virtue]

call me what you will, when your ready to tell me where I"m bieng illogical, by all means...

I already have. Several times.

its more along the lines that your statements don't hold much wieght if you include words such as "anything" "always" "never" etc etc...

How would you like me to phrase my statements?

too quick to point the finger and call others piddly?
analogy:

yes, DV, I would also call it figurative... can we move on?

Far be it from me to upset you. As you wish.

If you could find a gaggle of Christians that disagree with me, then argue with them. I said I do not take it literally because Jesus did not act literally on it.

I'm simply trying to figure out your requirements for labeling portions of the bible as literal or figurative. Some Christians believe the Garden of Eden story wasn't a literal story, some do. I'll be the first to admit I don't undestand the confusion between literal and figurative interpretation, especially when Christians themselves don't agree.

For the record, YOU are arguing with ME, not the other way around. If you don't wish to continue the conversation, don't.

as far as I Thessalonians 5:21 I don't have time to post on that now. You must take the Bible in context if your going to cite it. Taking a small fragment, it not substantial citation. I used the majority of a chapter so you would understand the whole context of the one key verse. If I take fragments from the Bible I could derive all sorts of things. I"ll post further on that verse later.

Did you hear that Marcy? Better stop posting those bible verses out of context!

Or was that only meant for us nonbelievers?

 

[Marcylene]

Ok, so you say he was a preacher.

When did he preach if he spent all day, every day building the ark?

How far did he travel to preach? How many people could he have possibly reached?

I have already shown you verses to show that God had no intention of warning anyone other than Noah, let alone the entire planet. Why do you continue to believe contrary to what the bible says?

Hmmm, lets see, He is Faithful, True, a Refuge, a Fortress, He is Love, He is Good, He is no respector of persons, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is a Rock, He is our Salvation. His ways are judgement. Anyone could have been saved up until the end came per the flood. I am not going contrary to Scripture, I am taking Who God is, looking at His Character and telling you. He is not willing that any should perish, never has been, never will be!

Perhaps Noah's sons were out preaching. Noah was 600 years old, time to reach a few.

The Bible does not tell us one way or the other. Plain. Simple. I am taking the Word as a whole and tell you God is not in the business of bringing cruel punishment for naught.

 

[Marcylene]

Did you hear that Marcy? Better stop posting those bible verses out of context!

I do not appreciate that. I do my best to be honest and true and bring Scripture as it is stated.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hmmm, lets see, He is Faithful, True, a Refuge, a Fortress, He is Love, He is Good, He is no respector of persons, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is a Rock, He is our Salvation. His ways are judgement. Anyone could have been saved up until the end came per the flood. I am not going contrary to Scripture, I am taking Who God is, looking at His Character and telling you. He is not willing that any should perish, never has been, never will be!

Perhaps Noah's sons were out preaching. Noah was 600 years old, time to reach a few.

The Bible does not tell us one way or the other. Plain. Simple. I am taking the Word as a whole and tell you God is not in the business of bringing cruel punishment for naught.

I think I could find quite a few examples of Godly cruelties, but that is besides the point.

The point is that you were incorrect, you ARE incorrect, when you claim that God planned to warn the world of impending doom. He did not. If this were the case, don't you think the Bible would say so? You are also incorrect when you claim, time after time, that Pharaoh's decision making skills weren't overridden by God.

Spin it anyway you like, but the truth is the truth.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I do not appreciate that. I do my best to be honest and true and bring Scripture as it is stated.

I agree, I know your intentions are good. I am merely pointing that out to Master Plan who does not seem to agree.

 

[Marcylene]

I think I could find quite a few examples of Godly cruelties, but that is besides the point.

The point is that you were incorrect, you ARE incorrect, when you claim that God planned to warn the world of impending doom. He did not. If this were the case, don't you think the Bible would say so? You are also incorrect when you claim, time after time, that Pharaoh's decision making skills weren't overridden by God.

Spin it anyway you like, but the truth is the truth.

We will agree to disagree. Knowing Gods character and that the people were warned in many instances, circumstances, and accounts in God's Word over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...Knowing that when we accept Christ we obtain a fruit in our lives that consists of God's Character which includes love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Knowing these things, then taking the logic and reasoning that you beg us to use, did the people in any instance have the opportunity to be Saved? Yes sirrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Lastly, and for the very last time, (I am in great hopes), Pharaoh hardened his own heart to begin with. When God hardened his heart, it was as if to say, "Have it your way. I am God and I will show my strength in spite of your stubborn sin and rebellion!" Pharaoh's choice! In all actuality, I believe he wanted a hard heart! He wanted what he wanted, not the blessings of God. He had no intentions of change, God knew this.
We disagree. It is not that I am trying to mislead you, I am sharing my heart with you and this is what I firmly believe. Truth is the truth and it is in the book. Read who God is, believe who God is, the Truth is in THE Book, the Holy Word of God. Does He use extreme measures? Yes. Is that His habit. Look around, DV, no He is longsuffering and patient towards us. The Bible says we are written in His hand, He thinks about us more than the sand of the sea, more than we can count...He is Love.

 

[Dark Virtue]

We will agree to disagree. Knowing Gods character and that the people were warned in many instances, circumstances, and accounts in God's Word over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...Knowing that when we accept Christ we obtain a fruit in our lives that consists of God's Character which includes love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Knowing these things, then taking the logic and reasoning that you beg us to use, did the people in any instance have the opportunity to be Saved? Yes sirrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

No Marcy, that is incorrect. Would you mind explaining to me the instances, circumstances and accounts of the entire world knowing God's word up to Gen 5? Do we even know what the population of the world was up to this point? Stop trying to see things that you WANT to see and instead see things as they actually are.

Lastly, and for the very last time, (I am in great hopes), Pharaoh hardened his own heart to begin with. When God hardened his heart, it was as if to say, "Have it your way. I am God and I will show my strength in spite of your stubborn sin and rebellion!" Pharaoh's choice! In all actuality, I believe he wanted a hard heart! He wanted what he wanted, not the blessings of God. He had no intentions of change, God knew this.

Ex. 4:21. Once again Marcy, you are WRONG. The facts are there, but you refuse to see them. Did Pharaoh harden his own heart? YES, but only AFTER God hardened it several times. The proof is laid out before you, you simply reject it to see what you want to see.

We disagree. It is not that I am trying to mislead you, I am sharing my heart with you and this is what I firmly believe. Truth is the truth and it is in the book. Read who God is, believe who God is, the Truth is in THE Book, the Holy Word of God. Does He use extreme measures? Yes. Is that His habit. Look around, DV, no He is longsuffering and patient towards us. The Bible says we are written in His hand, He thinks about us more than the sand of the sea, more than we can count...He is Love.

I HAVE read the Book and have come to a different conclusion than you. Objective vs subjective reasoning.

 

[Master~Plan]

I agree, I know your intentions are good. I am merely pointing that out to Master Plan who does not seem to agree.

heh, hey now, lets not put words in my mouth. If I see marcy post a verse out of context I will call her on it, and I truly hope she will do the same for me.

I"ll post further on that verse later.

So, I was going to post on 1thes 5:21, and after reading it over, I just wanted to apologize to you DV for not really bieng that nice to you. I know people throw around the word "nice" or "kind" like theres no tomorrow, but for what its worth I mean it. Your going to read the Bible how you will, and I guess knowing some of it is better than none.

 

[Marcylene]

heh, hey now, lets not put words in my mouth...

LOL (((MP))) I was hoping you would say that!!

If I see marcy post a verse out of context I will call her on it, and I truly hope she will do the same for me..

I think your posts are wonderful!

 

[Dark Virtue]

heh, hey now, lets not put words in my mouth. If I see marcy post a verse out of context I will call her on it, and I truly hope she will do the same for me.


So, I was going to post on 1thes 5:21, and after reading it over, I just wanted to apologize to you DV for not really bieng that nice to you. I know people throw around the word "nice" or "kind" like theres no tomorrow, but for what its worth I mean it. Your going to read the Bible how you will, and I guess knowing some of it is better than none.

Thank you.

Does that also mean that you were incorrect in accusing me of taking the verse out of context?