Stephen F. Roberts quote

You can have a personal experience with a false god just as easily as you can have a personal experience with the True God.

(from experience also)
 
AH...now we're getting down to brass tacks.

Did you actually have an experience with a false "god" or did you have an experience with something you THOUGHT was a god, but realized later it was nothing?

Isn't it possible that the experience you attribute to God could be explained away by the same reasoning?

OOPS, sorry, I said the "R" word.
 
Ack Reason!!! Run away run away run away. No reason here. Anything but that LOL.

False God = Nothing

We could talk this around in circles. Should we engage in that dance?
 
I think it's a valid argument.

You obviously believed in your false gods at one point. You believed them to be real, but then changed your mind for whatever reason. Now, once again, you believe your current god to be real. Why? Isn't it possible to disregard your current god based on the same reasons you disregarded your previous gods?

I think what keeps your god safe is DESIRE. Your desire for him to be real.
 
now DV, it seems like you're talking about experience and reality...

Being that's the case, allow me to dance your little dance...:)

Experiences are, in raw terms, merely sights and sounds and feelings a person perceives through his/her senses. (Sounds like the Matrix?) So going along with what you said, DV, our experiences of "god" can be just experiences we interpret to be divine due to emotion, seeing things, and hearing things.

In the same way, allow me to take this deeper. The most desired Empirical evidence that is so often requested here, then, is considered "truth"; Things that are proven. Problem is, things that are proven, can, too, be merely sights and sounds that are perceived to be information. (See where I'm going with this? This idea of thought is old and thought through before; but bear with me.)

Being that all information (including this discussion we are having right now) can just be a mind trick played on you by aliens (or a machine race). All the things heard and learned about religion, philosophy, and language and so on, then, could just be illusions that are playing with a person's mind.
For example, these words you are reading on your computer could be in fact just data programmed to LOOK like words you recongnize with the body you have, when in fact you could be a vegetated brain in a cell being tested by aliens. Your computer does not exist, these words do not exist, since they are just ILLUSIONS.

Henceforth, the so called "empirical evidence" then, does not prove anything "true," but rather "proven in this state of illusion currently experienced."

As you said, DV, you cannot trust anecdotal evidence. But being that's the case, you cannot trust your senses either, because there can be no empirical evidence that the things that are heard, seen, or touched are even bits of reality, because we are limited to working with the things that CAN be heard, seen, or touched. Logic is learned through senses; if senses cannot be trusted, then neither logic nor any form of information (and henceforth evidence of any sort) be trusted.

Henceforth, we trust upon anecdotal evidence that our senses are reliable; we see things, so what we see must be real. In other words, we have FAITH that our senses sense things that are real, because we have no other means to do so, even though by reason the possibility that the things we see are NOT real.

The only solid truth that can be held onto, then, is that YOU CANNOT DOUBT THAT YOU ARE DOUBTING. The problem with this thinking is that it's not practical in any way; it doesn't go very far. Well, for Christians, living a life that has no God doesn't seem to go very far either (you live, you have a family and a job, you die. yay.) Whether God is true or not is as ambiguous as asking whether the computer you are working on is real or not real. That's why we resort to FAITH. We CHOOSE to believe one way is the Truth, because by other physical means, there CAN BE NO TRUTH.

So what we experience to be God is more reliable to put our faith in than living without. We ALL have faith one way or another; it just depends on what we have faith IN. Christians choose God; a being that transcends all understanding.

You're asking for evidence to prove God. I'm trying to prove God by the lack of evidence to prove anything else.
 
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Say WHAT?

You cannot prove gods exist, nor can you disprove their existence.

I disagree with your reasoning as to why theists choose faith. I equate faith to hope and desire. You can't prove God exists, but you DESIRE God to exist, you HOPE he exists. That is why faith is used, because there is no reasonable evidence to believe in gods.

This is above and beyond the simple question I posed to Gen though. Gen believed that her god(s) were real. She fervently believed that, and I'm sure she prayed to them, depended on them, worshipped them, etc etc. There was a point where she changed her belief and no longer believed in them. Why then, is she so sure now that God exists? Couldn't she do away with God for the same reasons she did away with the other gods?

Have a look at the quote in the OP and keep Gen's previous religious experience in mind:

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
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WHY did she dismiss those other gods and WHY can't she do the same for God?
 
Well, I must first address an underlying belief. One that says this world is far too complex, organized, and collected to be a cosmic accident or the result of a large explosion. Logically, that does not make sense. So it must have been created by someone/thing that has a higher intellect and superior knowledge than any human that has come along (save one). So now the quest begins for the one who has performed such a marvelous work. When I first looked into various religions, many seemed okay, but I wanted a supreme being that I could identify with in my current status (being female, etc). Hence, my exploration of Wicca. It met the need that I had and fulfilled the desires. But it was based on my standards.

As I looked into Chrisitanity, I found that God actually filled the desires more, because it was based on His standards not mine. It was not me finding a religion that I felt comfortable in, but a deeper understanding that His truth was the right one. I knew of cults and false gods before but the picture became clearer after accepting Christ.

As I grew in my relationship with the Lord, I further understood what was really happening to me. Ha Satan will do what is necesary to keep God's children away from Him. That can be through false gods or even a quest for logic and reason that is over analyzed. ;) Loving the Lord and fearing Him is not that difficult to do once we put our misconceptions aside. And the reason I can put the false gods aside is because they are just that.
 
Haven't you said in the past though, that you chose Christianity because it offered you a guarantee of salvation?

I think desire and hope play a large part in the belief of a deity. Larger than they should, because you start seeing things that you want to see, instead of the way things really are.

Think very carefully about this quote:

I recall the story of the philosopher and the theologian. The two were engaged in disputation and the theologian used the old quip about a philosopher resembling a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat -- which wasn't there. "That may be," said the philosopher: "but a theologian would have found it."
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-- Julian Huxley
 
Yes, I did, and it does. But again, it filled a desire.

While desire plays a part in belief, I am not sure that hope does in the way it is defined here.

One could also say though that you begin to see things they way they really are instead of the way you thought they were.

Hmmmm, must ponder that one :)

Gen
 
You have a beautiful testimony, Gen. Thank you for sharing your heart.

DV, as I have pondered how to precisely explain God, I thought of these verses in Proverbs 30.

18There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not: 19The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.

I think truly God is similair to the concept of those verses. He is too wonderful for us to ever explain adequately. He is the Creator. He is the One we can choose to spend eternity with. Of course His Majesty is inexhaustible!

In addition, I think the manner in which He woos us and His relationship with us is almost indescribable! He draws each of us...sort of on our terms, if you will. I believe He speaks to us, in Love, with things that are close to our heart. As individuals, while we all come to God by the death of His Son, our walk with Him is as differing as we are.

The bottom line truly is that belief in Christ is built on faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and it takes faith to believe those things therein. Then, once saved, faith is part of the fruit of the Spirit! Funny, as we grow in Christ and walk with Him, it sometimes hardly seems like faith at all, for He becomes very real to us.
 
Genesis1315 said:
Yes, I did, and it does. But again, it filled a desire.

While desire plays a part in belief, I am not sure that hope does in the way it is defined here.

One could also say though that you begin to see things they way they really are instead of the way you thought they were.

Hmmmm, must ponder that one :)

Gen
Click to expand...

What about those of us that don't have a desire to believe in a god?
 
Marcylene said:
You have a beautiful testimony, Gen. Thank you for sharing your heart.

DV, as I have pondered how to precisely explain God, I thought of these verses in Proverbs 30.

18There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not: 19The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.

I think truly God is similair to the concept of those verses. He is too wonderful for us to ever explain adequately. He is the Creator. He is the One we can choose to spend eternity with. Of course His Majesty is inexhaustible!

In addition, I think the manner in which He woos us and His relationship with us is almost indescribable! He draws each of us...sort of on our terms, if you will. I believe He speaks to us, in Love, with things that are close to our heart. As individuals, while we all come to God by the death of His Son, our walk with Him is as differing as we are.

The bottom line truly is that belief in Christ is built on faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and it takes faith to believe those things therein. Then, once saved, faith is part of the fruit of the Spirit! Funny, as we grow in Christ and walk with Him, it sometimes hardly seems like faith at all, for He becomes very real to us.
Click to expand...

I have a very large problem with your last pararaph because it is a vicious cycle.

How do you gain faith without belief in God? How do you believe in God without faith?
 
It only takes a mustard seed!!!

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
 
I have not seen literal mountains...but I have seen mountains moved in a Spiritual sense. Some of those where from my own shortcomings, but mighty all the same.
 
Matt 17:20
And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Click to expand...

Was Christ referring to literal or figurative mountains?
 
I firmly believe that He meant both. Basically I think He was saying with faith, nothing is impossible. lol Don't ya' think?
 
I believe that is exactly what the verse implies, however, I don't believe it's true.

How many believers prayed fervently while a tsunami or hurricane headed right towards them only to have their prayers cut short by nature's fury?

So much for that one, single mustard seed of faith.
 
I cannot honestly tell you that I never question it. I realize that sometimes His answers are, "No!" There are times, of course only seen in hindsight, that I am VERY grateful that I did not get what I had asked for. I know that I have seen those saved from things you mentioned and attributed God's abundant mercy to miracles seen. I would not assume that everyone that perished or suffered prayed less than a mustard seed of faith. Some days I long to see Him so badly, I just cannot tell you, just as I miss my loved ones now in Heaven. Perhaps when I perish that is the prayer He is answering, it only required patience on my part. I really don't know. But I can be certain and promise you, faithful is the One that promised. He is faithful. His Word is faithful and true!
 
Then what is the point of Christ saying you can do the impossible if God won't let you?

You say God doesn't lie, but that's not exactly honest.
 
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