Paul's Warnings of False Apostles

[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 30 2003,5:25)]would lead one to ask why is Mary and Jesus' cousins hanging out together, sinse they do not believe in them and they have their own mother......
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Dear Lion,

Now it is stuff like that which makes me wonder about your acedemic ambitions.

We have established that the Ancient Middle East Culture was very 'extended family' and 'Clan' oriented. That would be the reason why they don't even have a word for 'cousin'. Forgetting all of that -- or it never sunk into your brain in the first place -- you superimpose the 20th Century Nuclear Family mentality on the Clan of Christ.

They were all one big happy family. That answers your question. That you would suggest that it be a more decent thing for each separate family nitch to divide off and despise one another -- that is just meanspirited. maybe you should look closely at yourself and discern whether or not you are a demon. You think like one.
 
Yet i am not a demon, because i do not delight in evil. all i do is challenge the way you think the provide anwsers.

With that said the Gospels says that Jesus' mother and brothers (cousins if you like) came to take him home because they where ashamed of him and what he was doing....

How does that play into the holy mary thing? just wondering. are the gosepls wrong? or did she doubt at a time also?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Nov. 01 2003,3:37)]Yet i am not a demon, because i do not delight in evil. all i do is challenge the way you think the provide anwsers.

With that said the Gospels says that Jesus' mother and brothers (cousins if you like) came to take him home because they where ashamed of him and what he was doing....

How does that play into the holy mary thing? just wondering. are the gosepls wrong? or did she doubt at a time also?
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What are you talking about? "Jesus Mother and brothers come to take him home because they are ashamed"? Where in all of the bible is there a construction nearly at all like that?

Well, there is the Return to Jerusalem when Christ was 12. Here, we find that Mary and Joseph are astonished. Now, only a Demon would change 'astonishment' to 'shame'. You do know there is a difference, don't you? For instance, to say a Performance is Astonishing, is quite different from saying an Performance is Shameful. I'm afraid to ask your opinion.

Anyway, lets look at the Return to Jerusalem. Mary was astonished, and at the end of the Chapter (Luke 2) it is said that she "treasured in Her heart" seeing Her Son kick the asses of all those Learned Doctors and Lawyers. But She was also IN CHARGE. She laid down the law and told Jesus that He was yet a Child. Which was good, because after She brought Him home, the Gospel tells us "He increased in Wisdom as He increased in years".

Then we would later have an Irony -- a Joke that took 18 years in the telling. At the Marriage of Cana, Mary would ask Jesus for His first public Miracle -- the turning of the water into wine. Jesus would look Her in the face and reply "Woman, it is not yet my time" -- which was what She told Him when He was twelve and wanted to start His Mission then. But it was just a joke, since He immediately did exactly what He was told.

So, if you survey the Gospels, you will find that Christ always gives His Opinion to His Mother, but also His Obedience -- even if the two differ. This is why Catholics may believe in Intercession via Mary -- Jesus has never disobeyed His Mother. Even if He has to say one thing and do another, He will DO what Mary tells Him. So, with Christ as Judge do not worry so much about what you say, as what you do.
 
"Summon all your mental strength and try to follow this."

Now that's not very nice. By this statement, you are implying that you are greater and smarter and wiser than me, and that I have to put in a massive effort just to barely understand. If this is what it implies, then you are making an assumption of my mental abilities without really even knowing me. Please keep your comments from 'judging a person' before 'knowing a person.'

You say that some translators are unaware of the problem. It is why I asked you which translation you go by, or what translation we can trust? It is why I presented the different translations that said 'brother' because if they're all mistranslated, then that puts doubt into all known English bibles. And if all known English bibles are untrusthworthy, then what version or language of the bible can we trust? You have identified the word as a concept for cousin, are there any biblical translators who have also done the same? Or is this something that every biblical translator has missed? Or are you saying that it is translated as brother, yet we are to interpret it as cousin because it is another definition of brother?

And I guess I do understand your convictions in reference to the Enemies of Mary. Its just that the way you had worded it can offend some people and it made it sound like you were judging them and condemning them to hell. That's why I had brought it up so that it could be reworded to sound less like an insult or a judgement and more of how you feel or believe. Thank you for your compromise, for it is appreciated. Especially here in the forums where differences in core values can cause heavy friction.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Malohaut @ Nov. 01 2003,7:20)]"Summon all your mental strength and try to follow this."

Now that's not very nice.  By this statement, you are implying that you are greater and smarter and wiser than me, and that I have to put in a massive effort just to barely understand.  If this is what it implies, then you are making an assumption of my mental abilities without really even knowing me.  Please keep your comments from 'judging a person' before 'knowing a person.'

You say that some translators are unaware of the problem.  It is why I asked you which translation you go by, or what translation we can trust?  It is why I presented the different translations that said 'brother' because if they're all mistranslated, then that puts doubt into all known English bibles.  And if all known English bibles are untrusthworthy, then what version or language of the bible can we trust?  You have identified the word as a concept for cousin, are there any biblical translators who have also done the same?  Or is this something that every biblical translator has missed?  Or are you saying that it is translated as brother, yet we are to interpret it as cousin because it is another definition of brother?

And I guess I do understand your convictions in reference to the Enemies of Mary.  Its just that the way you had worded it can offend some people and it made it sound like you were judging them and condemning them to hell.  That's why I had brought it up so that it could be reworded to sound less like an insult or a judgement and more of how you feel or believe.  Thank you for your compromise, for it is appreciated.  Especially here in the forums where differences in core values can cause heavy friction.
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Dear Malohaut,

Oh come on, stop your crying. As soon as I explained to you my point about the limitations of translation, didn't you instantly realize that I had caught you up. Everytime our slowness forces somebody to go over an explanation twice, like explaining a joke, then we have to expect just a little bit of deserved derision. Be a man!

And yes Malohaut, I am offending people and I do sincerely believe that yes they are flying toward Hell at terminal velosity. And I'm not going to cry about it. Jesus told us that there is a Wide Way and a Narrow Way. Christ has conceded that Most will be Damned. We cannot only NOT save Everybody, but we must accept the likelihood that Most won't be Saved. So good riddance to bad rubbish. They've all been warned -- not once, not twice. As they say in Baseball -- after two or three hundred strikes, "You're Out!" A Malicious Rebellion against Our Lady shows an unwillingness to have Faith, which violates even their own Faith Alone doctrines, and it shows a league with Satan. Really, if you can't say that someone who hates the Mother of God is the enemy, then who possibly could be the Enemy. We have the Prophecy from Genesis that the Woman would tread the head of the Snake with Her Heal. And then we have the Lady of Revelations 12. She is described exactly as depicted by the Supernatural Paintless Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe which science has verified to be an image without pigment or brush stroke -- like a chemical photoimage grew out of the burlap fibers, which should have rotted away after 20 years whereas the 500th Anniversary is coming up. So, even in their own Bible they should know Mary is Queen of Heaven. But it is one insult after another to Our Lady from people whose Religious Doctrine states that righteousness is a boast and good works is a debt, and that they are "Saved" by defining themselves as 'sinners'. Satanic Doctrine cannot be stated more clearly than that, can it? And you want me to find a nice way of saying it?

Anyway, I know you from other Posts. You have alot of potential, lad, but really need to decide whose side you are on. Have you ever read the Bhagavad Gita? There is about to be a huge Civil War in India and the Lord Krishna tries to make Peace, but when War is inevitable He tells the contending parties that one side may have his Army, and that the other side can have Him. Well, the Good Brothers realized that Krisha's Army would be powerless without Krishna. So it is with Paulian and Protestant Doctrine -- The Christian Religion has no power when Christ and His Teachings of Righteousness are removed from it. Also, the Forces of Protestanism seem Invincible -- The Protestant Nations against the rest of the World. So this is the very reason for you to consider siding with the Forces of Righteousness -- The Catholic Church and Islam, with the Jews changing sides and joining us in 5 or 6 years. You want to be a Spiritual Warriar -- a Knight! What Knight does not follow Chivalry and certainly fight for Our Lady. Watch your dreams, and you will see I am right.
 
sorry but you personally attack me so in your eye

Mark 3:21 and concludews in mark 3:31-35


Mark is also considered to be the first Gospel writen too.
 
Leo,

That's why we're happy that Jesus sits at the judgement seat and not you. He knows our hearts and our actions. I'm sorry but Jesus was God on earth and did not have to listen to Mary. I'm sure he did out of respect but certainly not of authority.

I'm sure this would have stung a bit for her but Jesus was making a point that if we do his will (Not Mary's) he regards us as equal.

Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Nov. 01 2003,9:25)]sorry but you personally attack me so in your eye

Mark 3:21 and concludews in mark 3:31-35


Mark is also considered to be the first Gospel writen too.
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Dear Lion,

I give up. I might as well be talking to a post. I thought you were just being lazy, and that there had to be something in you or you wouldn't have had these promises in your head about going for a doctorate degree. But you are so consistantly thick and incoherent. I give up. Jabber away all you want. I wouldn't care about a monkey chattering away in a tree, so why should I care about you.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Nov. 01 2003,9:27)]Leo,

That's why we're happy that Jesus sits at the judgement seat and not you.  He knows our hearts and our actions.  I'm sorry but Jesus was God on earth and did not have to listen to Mary. I'm sure he did out of respect but certainly not of authority.  

I'm sure this would have stung a bit for her but Jesus was making a point that if we do his will (Not Mary's) he regards us as equal.  

Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
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Hi Ceegee,

Jesus "did not have to" listen to Mary. But He did -- thats my point. Respect. Authority. Does it make a difference? Well, now that I think a moment, it does. Protestants hate Authority. Life Satan, your sin is in disobedience. It would be okay for Christ to Respect His Mother, but it would appal your Satanic Sensibilities for Christ to Obey the Commandment "Honor They Mother and Father".

You are taking a low interpretation of Mark. There was also the passage where a Lady screams from the crowd "Blessed is the Womb that bore Thee" and Christ rejoined "Blessed rather for Doing the Will of God!"

to do justice to the Verses you quote you must realize the burden they entail -- YOU MUST DO THE WILL OF GOD TO BE CONSIDERED TO BE MOTHER OF GOD. Now, I wish I knew who was in the Room at the time. It was the highest praise that any human could ever receive. It was earned with what had to be extensive Good Works and Penance.

But Prots read these verses like they are a rebuke to The Mother of God. Christ compares his most devoted followers with His Mother, and you only want to see this as bringing Her down instead of bringing them up. Your hearts are twisted.

Oh, you say "His" will, refering to Christ. But, Christ was speaking of The Father's Will. Remember the Garden of Gethsemminee. Christ prayed to be delivered, and God said No. If Christ has a personal Will, He does not assert it. Whatever His personal wishes are, He accepts the Will of God His Father. That is, until Judgment Day. After His Resurrection Christ said that He had come into His Power. His Will was finally consolidated into the Divine Will.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Nov. 01 2003,12:11)]ha you just refuse to accept the truth in the Gospels, and its not from PAUL!
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Dear Lion,

Care to let me in on your inside joke -- I don't get it. But its a good bet you are wrong about something else --it wouldn't be a big surprise. However, if you are right about something I have not noticed, I will give you a big public apology. But I feel pretty safe.
 
I have no problem with authority. I listen to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, church and my husband. I respect Mary but I don't pray to her. only God.
 
"Oh come on, stop your crying."  "Be a man!"

This is an adult forum with adult people.  I ask you questions and I ask you to be nice and considerate.  If that is considered 'whining' in your book, then I am sorry.  But for the sake of everybody here, we attempt to be fair and respect the person to whom we are speaking with.  Please do not put me or anybody in these forums in a derogitory (sp?) way.  I am asking this nicely.  Is it wrong to ask for respect and politeness, even to your enemies?  After all, that is a biblical concept.  It was Jesus Himself who said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"   However, if you still desire to put down the protestants and desire them hell, then I cannot and will not stop you.  I will respect that of you and will speak of it no more.  But I will do as Jesus commands and love everybody, whether they seem heavenbound or hellbound.

In the same way, I ask everybody to respect Leo. For in your eyes, he is lost and confused. Yet do not push him away or put him down. Love him and pray for him. For it is Christ's will that you do so.

And you seem to be very adimate about defending Mary.  Can you not also be adimate (drat.  can't find the correct spelling of that) about God or Jesus?  Or is Mary your God?  I did not ask that to insult you, or to disrespect Mary, but I'm trying to get you to understand what your words sound like.  When all you speak about is Mary Mary Mary, the Queen Mary, the revelations of Mary, you sound like you are deifying her.  Is that your intent?  Is Mary above God?  Of course it sounds offensive to many people because by your statements, you are implying Mary to be god herself, a god to be worshiped, prayed to, sought after, and glorified.  Even the angels and apostles said not to worship them, but God himself.

I do not know anything about "Our Lady of Guadalupe"  Please tell us more about this.

"but really need to decide whose side you are on."
I've always tried to side with God and with God's truth, and not with interpretation.  (I admit the bible is interpretation of the original text, and the concepts we know are interpretation of that bible, but I try to go more by what comes from the bible as a cornerstone because I see it as a book of truth.  So the interpretation I speak of as an example is this: if a person says something, and the bible says something different, then I am more inclined to go with the bible above what the person says)  I do my very best to be like Joshua when he said, "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ."  (I did not quote this scripture to imply that you are not serving the Lord.  I just quoted it to say that like Joshua, I wish to seek to serve the Lord God in a world where there are many gods being followed.)

"As soon as I explained to you my point about the limitations of translation, didn't you instantly realize that I had caught you up."
Caught up with me?  Is this a race?  Is this a battle?  Is this a contest?  It is a sharing of ideas and the seeking of truth.  From your post, I had implyed that you were claiming the translation to be untrustworthy.  Nowhere did you say that translation is 'limited' because that I would have better understood.  I simply raised the question because I wanted to understand your point of view better, not to put down what you had said or prove it wrong.  I genuinely asked you that if it was true that you were saying that the translation was untrustworthy, then by what can we trust?  Had you said something like, "translations aren't very precise because the words used to translate don't always fully correlate with the words its coming from," I would have fully agreed with that statement and left it alone.  As such, I did not understand your point of view and was simply asking for more information.

"Everytime our slowness forces somebody to go over an explanation twice"
In these forums, the trick is not slowness, but sometimes miscommunication or misinterpretation.  So yes, sometimes a second explaination is necessary in a reworded form so that the meaning intended to be conveyed can be understood.

"The Christian Religion has no power when Christ and His Teachings of Righteousness are removed from it."
I agree.  After all, the Christian Religion is based on the teachings of Christ is it not?  Yet even if we do remove Christ, do we not still have the love of God as presented in the old testament?

"Also, the Forces of Protestanism seem Invincible -- The Protestant Nations against the rest of the World.  So this is the very reason for you to consider siding with the Forces of Righteousness"
I am not siding with anybody.  I am siding with the bible and with God.  And if it is truth that God has annointed and appointed Mary as helper and guide, then I shall follow that.  And if it is truth that Jesus is the only way to the father, then I shall follow that.  I trust in God and I follow God and whatever truth there is in God, I shall follow with all my heart and teach others to do the same.  So don't think of me as a protestant, and don't think of me as an aspiring catholic.  Think of me as a truth seeker, and a man passionate for God and for the work of God.

Bhagavad Gita?  Never heard of it.  But I shall look it up.  It does sound quite interesting.

And I will keep my heart in prayer and my eyes on my dreams as you ask.

Thank you Leo, and for everybody here for your patience in me and your patience in each other.  For we are here not to fight each other, or to hate each other, or to put down each other, but to bring to the table thoughts, ideas, and beliefs about concepts that we can share and examine and better understand.  May the peace of God be with you all.
 
Dear Malomut,

Jeez, I ask you to please stop your whining and crying. So what do you do. You start out with a huge paragraph of more whining and crying. Is that how you take a hint? Beat your little fists against the floor. Someone should send you to your room without your supper. Go bring your mother to the computer so I can tell her what a bad boy your being.

About Mary. This is the Spiritual Hierarchy -- there exists at the Top The Holy Trinity of which God the Father is the Hub Center. Then, at the Pinacle of Created Things, but below the Creator, is Mary the Perfect Creature -- the Only Perfect Creature -- who is Queen of Heaven. She is above the Angels, well, except in times of Major Chastisement when Michael of instructed by God the Father Himself to ignore Mary's Pleading for Mercy until the Chastisements run their course.

Now, the Protestant insistance that they will refuse to deal with any delegated Authority placed over them and will conduct their business only with Christ the King Himself -- doesn't this strike you as a bit Proud. How can any such people live peacefully in a heavenly Community if they can't take orders? On the Day of Judgement Christ will count the number of times each Protestant said that Mary could go _. These Prots will find that Jesus probably loves His Mother more than he would love people who rejected His Law, Righteousness, Suffering, Prayer and Penance. Useless Souls who come only with insults on their lips. How would you judge?

Our Lady of Guadalupe: I'll include a separate post on that. Let me do that now...
 
Leo -- on  your most recent post, Didn't Christ say that no man can come onto the Father except through me?  Also I ask again, why do you have such a problem with Paul?  A Pope decreed that his writings were scripture and canon, and since part and parcel of Catholic Dogma is that when a pope makes a decree for the church, it is infallible.  You  can't claim purgatory, and Mary's role in salvation/intecessory and purgatory, without Papal Infallicy, to claim Paul is not doctrine is to  say that the Pope is fallible, therefore all other Catholic dogma is unfounded as well.

An  onto your theory of  authority, what scriptural backing do you give to prove Mary's existance as a perfect creature, or even the queen of Heaven.   Of  course, since these are Catholic dogma handed down by Papal Infallicy, they fall under the same problems that exist when you claim Paul's writing are  not canon.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Nov. 01 2003,9:07)]Leo -- on  your most recent post, Didn't Christ say that no man can come onto the Father except through me?  Also I ask again, why do you have such a problem with Paul?  A Pope decreed that his writings were scripture and canon, and since part and parcel of Catholic Dogma is that when a pope makes a decree for the church, it is infallible.  You  can't claim purgatory, and Mary's role in salvation/intecessory and purgatory, without Papal Infallicy, to claim Paul is not doctrine is to  say that the Pope is fallible, therefore all other Catholic dogma is unfounded as well.

An  onto your theory of  authority, what scriptural backing do you give to prove Mary's existance as a perfect creature, or even the queen of Heaven.   Of  course, since these are Catholic dogma handed down by Papal Infallicy, they fall under the same problems that exist when you claim Paul's writing are  not canon.
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Dear Kidan,

Do you really think that the Pope is the one who decides what Catholics believe? The Catholic Church is Real. It isn't some committee made set of Doctrines like the Protestant Churches. The Catholic Church has Saints and Mystics and Apparitions. The Pope could not possibly drift too far away from that Divine Revelation. No one would follow.

Take the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception -- a Pope finally made it Official in 1854 -- but the Church Doctors had been speaking of it since the 2nd Century. The Popes do not lead -- they Follow the Divine Revelations.

It is your premise that the Catholic Church is a Man made doctrine and you wanted me to join into your premise. I won't. The Church is Real. God is Real. Mary is Real. That is how I can criticize -- because I know that if we shake it loose enough, it will all come to rest, even more firmly on THE REAL TRUTH.

To really know Catholicism, don't look to the Vatican, but turn your eyes to all the convents, monasteries and Third Orders. It is out of these that the Saints arise. There has never been a Saint who was also Pope -- not really. The Holy Spirit would chafe under all that papal brocade and jewelry, but is cosy with the hair shirts and barbed chains of the monks and the nuns.
 
but you do not answer the question. Is Papal Infallicy real? If so, why is Paul's writings not real, while this concept of Dual Immaculate Conceptions is real?

Besides at no time in my post did I say that Pope's made these decisions at random intervals with no warning. Rather I said that the dogma is that when a Pope is speaking on behalf of the Catholic Church, he is infallible.


Committe made set of doctrines...hmm....wasn't that the Council of Jeursalem, Nicea, and a host of others throught the centuries really were? Committees that set doctrine, which the Pope then approved or said try again? And of course, when he speaks thusly, he's infallible...
 
Leo would not know Mary if she came up behind him and kicked him in the rear.
The TRUTHE about Mary is the Roman Catholics have unsulted her by making her to be something she does NOT desire to be, and the Protestants do not give her enough credit for being at the time Gabriel came to her, SINFREE. AMEN
Mary was what eve was unwilling to be.
Of the three, i suppose the closest to an understanding of Mary is the Orthodox, but then they have a hangup with icons.
They have an icon for eveything.
SO all in all, all with have to throw the washwater out but hold on to the baby. amen
That will require Jesus Class Miracles. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
 
adelpit if you don't like the catholic doctrine why did you tell us all to covert to catholocism?
 
But then you/Watcher who have not any understanding of the workings of the ASSEMBLY OF THE WORD OF GOd ARE  NOT in the least QUALIFIED TO TELL me WHAT IS IN CONFLICT OR NOT.
AS i have said, show me where in i have erred, EVEN ONCE.
if you can not, and i say YOU CAN NOT, they you have ONLY AN OPINION/THEORY.
my theory/opinion can KICK YOUR THEORY/OPINION ALL OVER THIS PLAYING FIELD, FOR IT HAS BEEN GIVEN me by THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THIRD HEAVEN.
AMEN
LET me THEN FOR YOUR HARD HEARING ARTICULATE FOR YOU ONE MORE TIME:JESUS IS THE LORD.
CAN YOU ARTICULATE THAT BETTER THAN i?
CAN YOU ARTICULATE/UTTER THAT THE SAME AS i?
i am nothing0 and by THE HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST GIVEN TO PUST the watcher any direction i care to.
i can drive him completely from this Spiritual playing field by EXPOSING ALL his ERRORS.
i can call him back to receive edifications by using his pride against him.
For men of pride will always once beaten, stand off in the shadows and wait the moment they have the notion i have erred,to come back to WAR with me once again. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA.
AS always, try watcher to find even ONE error.
 
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