It's that time of year again...

Im not partaking in pagan rituals because I know nothing of them... so if i use a tiolet to worship my God oofajugga then everyone who uses a toilet is then partaking in a pagan ritual? I dont htink so, you cannot perform a ritual unless you intend to.

I dont care what santa clause is heavily based on.... He is a fictional character and so is this Odin -whatsihface.
My little brothers know Santa clause is fictional, and we dont say otherwise... doesnt stop us from giving them stuff with Santa Clsues name on it...

I dont lie to them...
 
Byblos, the more you say in these forums the more and more I believe that you have probably never even read your Bible or understand what the teachings within it are.

Pagan rituals are littered throughout Catholicism and many protestant practices. These practices were condemned by God when the Israelites did them. Your opinions are not going to save your soul. Playing ignorance in a society where information is readily availibe is just trying to keep yourself from being responsible for you own actions.

As for lying, every time you tell a kid that Santa Clause comes down a chimney and brings them gifts, your lying to them.

The first step is admitting you have a problem...

Cory
 
Soo sad... well. blather all you want.. I really dont care..

I know im not performing a ritual, and the fact that you are tying to convince my that I am is proof enough that I am not....

so just keep your blah blah blah, to yourselves.

@Thadius, Giving people presents isnt going to effect the condition of my soul either, and neither is you and your buddy's accusations against me. I dont think you understand what God is all about.
 
Yeah, why is dressing up and asking for candy a pagan ritual? You tell me. Maybe we should just change the name. Will you guys be happy then?
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Oct. 26 2004,11:33)]Soo sad... well. blather all you want.. I really dont care..

I know im not performing a ritual, and the fact that you are tying to convince my that I am is proof enough that I am not....

so just keep your blah blah blah, to yourselves.
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Can we count on you to do the same?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rithkil @ Oct. 26 2004,11:34)]Yeah, why is dressing up and asking for candy a pagan ritual? You tell me. Maybe we should just change the name. Will you guys be happy then?
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The names have already been changed by the Church to meld pagans and believers together.

Samhein -> Halloween

Ishtar -> Easter

Winter Solstice -> Christmas


Why are these things pagan? Because they are rituals and traditions of PAGANS. Slap a bow on it, change the name, they are still pagan rituals. Slap a bow on a pig and call it Charlie. Is it still a pig? What if the church adopts it and lets it sit in a pew during services? It's STILL a pig.
 
That is a HORRIBLE analogy. You don't even know the HISTORY of the pagan ritual! The pagan ritual was called the time between times when the celtic people would battle the evil spirits that came through from the other realm into ours. That is nothing like what we do today. Slap a bow on a pig and call it charlie, it's stilll a pig. Slap a bow on a horse and call it charlie, it's still a pig? LOL.
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I don't think so.
 
Striving to be a bible scholar myself, Yes the Catholics church pushed Catholicism on the “Pagan” (Meaning anything that did not glorify GOD) Ritual. One of the 1st moves you make when establishing a new regime to the common masses is anchor it to something familiar. Establishing Churches on old ritual sites was a way to “Defeat” the old way and pave the new way of belief.

Why is the church so divided on holidays because we as Christians are command to Glorify god in everything we do. To dress as a ghost or goblin or devil demon or vampire is not glorifying to God.

Plus for this reason I must contest many holidays. But there are family events and ways to bring our family and friends together. I no longer practice Halloween. But my children do but that is my calling, maybe your not there at that level its fine, God deals with us differently.

But I divinely adored the pig analogy, I thought it was presented nicely
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yeah, why is dressing up and asking for candy a pagan ritual?
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I don't know about the pagan ritual behind this aspect...but, I am not for going out into the world and begging for candy from it. To me, it seems very wrong for a Christian to do. It doesn't sit right with me. I would rather spend the time with the family at a nice restaurant and going to see a movie afterwards. There are a lot of things I would rather do.
 
Here is one opinion on it. Byblos, until you decide to use your Bible, your discussions will hold no merit with me.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] All of G-d's people, as well as the secular earth, are guilty of giving in to Babylon's pageantry and paganism. Most Christians and Jews either don't know or care to know the truth of these pagan ties. Christians rationalize that they are worshipping Jesus, while Jews see no harm in Hellenizing their Channukah to spice it up. These people have become drunk from drinking from this ancient mystery cup. They don't even recognize the sign of their drunkenness, which is complacency and indifference. Refusing to heed G-d's call to be sanctified and to come out of Babylon, they express their hypocrisy by refusing to honor G-d's ordained feasts and holidays.

A recent news article from the Scripps Howard News Service states in their article, "Christmas Celebration Crosses All Faiths."

"Christmas remains America's favorite holiday-a religious celebration that transcends the nation's increasingly multicultural society. Eighty-three percent of the adult residents of the United States-including Jews, Muslims and atheists-say they put a decorated tree in their homes. Fifty-nine percent say there is no holiday they love more than Christmas."

What is Christmas and from where did it originate? Yule is the Chaldean name for 'infant' or 'little child.' In ancient Babylon, the 25th of December was known as Yule day or the birth of the promised child day. This was the day of the birth of the incarnate sun, who appeared as a baby child to redeem a world bound in darkness. It was an essential belief of the Babylonian religious system, that the sun god, also known as Baal, was the chief god in a polytheistic system. Tammuz was also worshipped as the god incarnate, or promised baby son of Baal, who was to be the Savior of the world.

It is interesting that a review of the New Covenant Scriptures reveals that no early believers reverenced Yeshua's birth. Instead, as is the Jewish custom of faith, they were told to commemorate his death. [I Corinthians 11:26]

We find in the Catholic encyclopedia that Christmas was not even among the earliest church festivals. It was not until the latter part of the fourth century that the Roman Church began observing December 25th as Jesus' birthday. By the fifth century A.D., the Roman Church ordered the birth of Messiah to be forever observed on December 25th. At the time of this decree, the Roman Church knew full well that the pagan religious cults throughout the Roman and Greek worlds celebrated the pagan sun god, Mithra, on this self same day. This winter festival was known as the Nativity of the Sun. It was also known in the Roman Empire as Saturnalia [another name for sun worship].


Note: In 46 BC, when the Roman "Julian Calendar" was adopted, December 24th was the shortest day of the year. Therefore, December 25th was the first annual day that daylight began to increase. Thus, the origin of the REBIRTH or Annual Birthday of the Invincible SUN.

In accordance with the Roman "Julian calendar," the "Saturnalia" festival appears to have taken place on December 17th; it was preceded by the "Consualia" near December 15th, and followed by the "Opalia" on December 19th. These pagan celebrations typically lasted for a week, ending just before the late Roman Imperial Festival for "Sol Invictus" (Invincible Sun) on December 25th.

In 1582 AD. Roman Catholic Pope Gregory the XIII caused the current "Gregorian Calendar" to be adopted, in order to eliminate the solar time shift error introduced by the "Julian Calendar."

By December 1582 AD the shortest day of the year had shifted 12 days on the Roman "Julian Calendar" to Wednesday, December 12, 1582.

However, the Original December 25th 'Birth Date' was retained for all pagan Sun gods by the Roman "Saturnalia" and "Sol Invictus" traditions; which were now called the "Twelve Days of Christ Mass."

On the new Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar the shortest annual day was numerically shifted back 10 days to the 22nd of December, where it remains to this day; while the original order of the days of the week remained unchanged.

Therefore, Wednesday, December 12th, 1582 AD, became Wednesday, December 22nd, 1582 AD, and the True Sabbath Day remained unchanged.

Yahweh, the Only True Yahweh, would never have allowed The True Messiah to be born on or near the December 25th birthday period of the pagan Sun gods; during the time in which virgins were sacrificed, murder was commonplace, and orgies the norm. This would be an entirely unacceptable association.


The winter festival was very popular in ancient times, and marked a time of rejoicing and festivity. Much of our present day customs involved in the Christmas season are a direct inheritance of the Roman winter festival of Saturnalia. These days involved gift giving, colored lights to ward off evil spirits, festive meals, and of course, decorated trees.

The present day Christmas tree also goes back to the worship of sacred trees in the ancient Babylonian system. The green evergreen symbolized the incarnate Baal coming to life through the incarnate baby Tammuz. The custom of decorating and worshipping trees spread throughout the known world, with the variety of tree used selected according to the natural growth of each area of the world. The Druids worshipped the oak tree, the Egyptians worshipped the palm tree, while in Rome it was the fir tree.

There are at least ten references in the Bible warning that these green trees were associated with idolatry and pagan worship. Jeremiah 10:1-4 details the Israelites following the very pagan customs practiced today.

Jeremiah 10:1-4

"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O House of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain; for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."


The reason G-d warns against the worship of the signs of heaven in association with this custom is that it was associated with the worship of the sun.

The very term, Christmas, comes from the sacred Christ-mass, where the Pope in the role of the High Priest of the mystery Babylon religion introduces the people to the concept of trans-substantiation. Using the wine and round wafers to reflect the life of Baal, the sun god, the name of Jesus replaces the ancient pagan custom. The wine and wafers are now said to be the transformation of the actual blood and body of Messiah within the person who ingests them. People, thereby, relive again and again the death and resurrection of the incarnate god.

Israelites performed this same ritual in their worship to the Queen of heaven and the incarnate god Tammuz.


Jeremiah 44:18, 19, 23
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the Queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her without our men. 23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in His law, nor in His statutes, nor in His testimonies, therefore, this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.


It would surprise most Christians to learn that the history of the church is filled with historic battles over these very doctrinal issues. Many of the reformation movements in the church made drastic attempts to get away from these pagan holidays.

Calvin, in 1550, instigated an edict concerning church holidays. A ban was passed against observing various church festivals, which included Christmas. In a tract on the necessity of reforming the church, Calvin exclaimed: "I know how difficult it is to persuade the world that Yahweh disapproves of all modes of worship not expressly sanctioned by His Word."

John Knox, in the Scottish reformation, repeatedly confronted the Catholic Church, contending that true worship must be instituted by G-d, not derived from the traditions of men. At the heart of his argument was an appeal to Torah, especially, references to Deuteronomy 4 and 12, which states that one must not add to nor subtract from G-d's word.

John Knox, History of the Reformation in Scotland, 1950, Vol. 1, page 91 states the following: "That Yahweh's word damns your ceremonies it is evident; for the plain and straight commandment of Yahweh is, 'Not that thing which appears good in thy eyes, shalt thou do to the LORD thy Yahweh, but what the LORD thy Yahweh has commanded thee, that do thou; add nothing to it; diminish nothing from it.' Now unless that ye are able to prove that Yahweh has commanded your ceremonies, this His former commandment will damn both you and them."

The holidays of Christmas and Easter were banned from the Church of Scotland.

David Calderwood [1511-1651], representing the Scottish ministries, asserted in reference to Christmas and Easter: "The Judaical days had once that honor, as to be appointed by Yahweh Himself; but the anniversary days appointed by men have not like honor. This opinion of Christ's nativity on the 25th day of December was bred at Rome."

David Calderwood then exposed the Roman claims made for the 25th of December as the day of Messiah's birth. He argues that the Apostles never ordained it. He said the following: "Nay, let us utter the truth, December-Christmas is a just imitation of the December-Saturnalia of the ethnic [heathen] Romans, and so used as if Bacchus [another name for the sun god], and not Messiah, were the Yahweh of Christians."

George Gillespie [1613-1649], a premier Scottish theologian, wrote in a book published in 1637 called A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies Obtruded Upon the Church of Scotland. "The holidays [reference to Christmas and Easter] take a severe beating on a number of accounts. Sacred significant ceremonies devised by man are to be reckoned among images forbidden in the second commandment in regards to worshipping idols."

The English Puritans fought to ban the worship of Christmas and Easter. They resorted to Galatians 4:8-11, which many Christians have used to say that it is referring to G-d not wanting believers to worship Jewish holidays. However, this is wrong on several accounts:

1. These scriptures are specifically referring to a people brought near to G-d through Messiah, who were former pagans.
2. Apostle Paul himself, as detailed throughout the book of Acts, worshipped the LORD ordained feasts.
3. If we were taking these scriptures as an argument for Messiah doing away with Torah, then this would put it in direct conflict with Yeshua's statement in Matthew 5:17, where he stated he did not come to do away with Torah, nor the prophets.


Galatians 4:8-11
8 How best then, when ye knew not G-d, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods [obviously referring to pagan heathen practices]. 9 But now, after that ye have known G-d, or rather are known of G-d, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, where unto ye deserve again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years [reference to pagan holidays]. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.


History records that when the Puritans came to power in England, Parliament, in June,1647, passed legislation abolishing Christmas and other holidays. In this legislation, they wrote the following: "For as much as the feast of the nativity of Christ, Easter, and other festivals, commonly called holy days, have been here-to-fore superstitiously used and observed; be it ordained that the said feasts, and all other festivals, commonly called holy days, be no longer observed as festivals."

The American Puritan movement took an even stronger stand against these pagan holidays. Samuel Miller, a Puritan and professor of history and church government at Princeton Seminary, stated in 1896 in his book, why Presbyterians reject the holy days of Christmas and Easter. He stated that "the Scriptures were the only infallible rule of faith and practice, and that no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of Yahweh, which is not warranted in Scripture. Not only does the celebration of non-biblical holidays lack a scriptural foundation, but the scriptures positively discount it." [Miller, pgs. 65,74]

Presbyterians were not the only ones who maintained a strong stand against Christmas, as there were many other Christians who held to similar convictions. As a matter of fact, the famous preacher, Charles Spurgeon, stated in a sermon given on Christmas Eve, December 24th, 1871, the following:

"We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas: first, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be said or sung in Latin or English; and secondly, because we find no scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Savior; and, consequently, it's observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority." [C. H. Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1971, pg. 697]

Opposition to these church holidays remained in American Presbyterianism through the latter half of the 19th century. Speaking following the Civil War, historian Ernest Trice Thompson wrote the following:

"There was no recognition of either Christmas or Easter in any of the Protestant churches, except the Episcopal and Lutheran. For a full generation after the Civil War, the religious journals of the South mentioned Christmas only to observe that there was no reason to believe that Jesus was actually born on December 25th; it was not recognized as a day of any religious significance in the Presbyterian Church" [Ernest Trice Thompson, Presbyterians In the South, 1973, Vol. 2, pg. 434.]

FSCG Note: Alabama was the USA State to recognize Christmas, and did not do so until 1836. ["Tidbits," Cheyenne, Wy. 82007, Burchett Publishing, Issue #271 ]

It was not until the turn of the 19th century that various Christmas customs began appearing in Presbyterian churches. There began to be reports of: 1) Frivolities like Saint Nicholas in children's Sunday schools. 2) Use of Christmas trees and other festivities.

The appearance of Easter and Christmas in the official calendar of the Southern Presbyterian church did not actually occur until the late 1940s and 1950s, as a work of growing apostasy in the church. Even so, as late as 1962, the Synod of the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland stated that they rejected the celebrations of Christmas and Easter [History of the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, 1893-1970, pg. 383].

Christmas has clearly brought an infusion of paganism into the church that was initially prohibited among all of G-d's people.


II Corinthians 6:14-18 states
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Messiah with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of G-d with idols? For ye are the temple of the living G-d; as G-d hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the LORD Almighty.
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Cory
 
well I dont care for merit with you...

@ Peon... I guess you have a point... and Haloween sure isnt what it was when I was that little... its pretty dangerous now.
 
I was captivated by the facts in your quote, Cory, so much so that I found the author: Dr. Joel Ehrlich. I am not saying that I disagree with him, I felt a thrill to find someone well versed in history AND willing to take a stand. *alas* While his stance on the holidays seem to come from someone well studied, his views on salvation and the Trinity is where I part company with him. I thank you for exposing these celebrations, I must admit it leaves me feeling like a "pig on a pew!" There are Godly and women that I do admire that I have mirrored thinking, it is the heart attitude in these celebrations...not certain what to think at this point, it does not appear to be so innocent. And I already feel, as I think many Christians must, at times, like a minority by just believing so strongly in salvation and having a heart's desire that all be saved, to name only one reason for such feelings.

And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them. Leviticus 26:39 Stop the world, I want to get off! It all makes me homesick for Heaven! Is there not a church that will stand on every jot and tittle? Why do Godly mean continue to practice as the pagans? Just questioning and trying to grow. I stand with Paul in feeling I am the chief of all sinners.
 
I'm not saying I agree with a lot of people 100% and I don't expect that of others. That being said, I think that we can learn from each other, and people like Dr. Ehrlich. I was using this as an example because it best put into words the Christmas holiday. Christmas has always been the hardest for me to swallow, hence why I posted it.

And DV did point it out, I was just putting what he said into a way that I felt.
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Cory
 
I could not have said it better, D.V., but that goes out to all of you. I appreciate it!  The Holy Ghost at work:)  I think D.V. has missed his calling.  A pig on a pew!  lol That will preach!  

Okay, so what do I do with such information?  Simply don't partake seems most logical.  Christmas?  Talking about feeling like a minority, my family just might disown me for that one!
 
Now this I can speak from experience.

When I was Christian my immediate family and I didn't celebrate Christmas, but EVERYONE in my extended family did.

Trust me, you'll get a cock-eyed look. Then I'm sure they'll think you're trying to be better than them by not participating in this "Pagan" ritual. But you have to ask yourself, what is more important, the respect of your family or the respect of your God? This, I believe, is what Christ had in mind when he said to hate your parents and love him.

Pardon my speech, but don't be a half-assed Christian. If you're going to do it, then stick to your morals and abstain from these pagan rituals. I truly admire Thaddius for doing this. He KNOWS what is right and he is doing something about it. It isn't easy, not at all, but if you truly believe in it, follow your heart.

It's not EASY being a Freethinker/Atheist, but I believe it to be right with every fiber of my being. I will not sell myself short, and neither should you.

Someone just pointed out recently the verse that said, "live IN the world, but do not be a part of it". Don't be a hypocrite. You can't be a man/woman of God and dabble in pagan rituals. 1 Thess 5:21, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good"! (great, now I'm quoting verses like marcy
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