How did you ascertain your faith?

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]I will NOT put my faith, hope and love in the God of the Bible. I will NOT put my faith in a book that contains errors, however small, that is supposed to represent an Omnimax.

Then ya might is well find another board of people to try and convince they are wrong. You'll find that very few of us here will budge in our faith.

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 03 2004,9:47)]Lets go back to the pharoh story again.  God knew that pharoh would not repent or turn to him.  God used pharoh to His cause, even though pharoh rejected God.

This is what I don't get though.

You are telling me that Pharaoh rejected God long before Moses showed up. Granted, this is most probably true.

You are also telling me that Pharaoh, in the midst of seven massive cataclysms would still refuse God, and that God knew this ahead of time. If this is true, then WHY would God need to harden his heart? If God knew ahead of time that Pharaoh would hold out until the end, which is what you have said, then why did God feel the need to interfere?

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 03 2004,9:44)]How did you ascertain your faith?  I'll tell you.

Determine  I determined that an Omnimax most probably does not exist.
Establish  I established a set of guidelines that must be met for me to believe in an Omnimax or his Bible.
Discover  I discovered that the majority of Christians have no clue why they do the things they do.
Find out  I am finding out that people would rather delude themselves that face facts.
Learn  I am learning every day.  About God, about the Bible, about Faith.
Make certain  I am certain, without a shadow of a doubt, that I am on the right path.

I will NOT put my faith, hope and love in the God of the Bible.  I will NOT put my faith in a book that contains errors, however small, that is supposed to represent an Omnimax.

Well Then DV, You have made choices. Good For you. So then what is your objective or purpose here at a Christian Site?
To convert us to your veiws

To denounce the Bible
To affrim your belief that Christ either did not live or is not who we think he is.
To make us believe in tolenace of other

What is your main objective DV

I am so very curoius

Since you have been here all you ahve done is bash are beliefs and say we are confused?

I would like to know?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 03 2004,9:49)]

Quote[/b] ]I will NOT put my faith, hope and love in the God of the Bible.  I will NOT put my faith in a book that contains errors, however small, that is supposed to represent an Omnimax.

Then ya might is well find another board of people to try and convince they are wrong.  You'll find that very few of us here will budge in our faith.

Cory

LOL, I'm not the Anti-Christ trying to deconvert God's followers.

Maybe, just maybe, I'd like someone to prove ME wrong.

And I'm sorry, but for every one like you, who is intelligent and actually understands what and why he believes, there are 10 people that are clueless and are religious because that was how they were brought up and never question their beliefs. That goes both ways, there are "athiests" that refuse to believe in anything without even doing any research. That is just as wrong.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Sep. 03 2004,9:55)]

Well Then DV, You have made choices. Good For you. So then what is your objective or purpose here at a Christian Site?
To convert us to your veiws

To denounce the Bible
To affrim your belief that Christ either did not live or is not who we think he is.
To make us believe in tolenace of other

What is your main objective DV

I am so very curoius

Since you have been here all you ahve done is bash are beliefs and say we are confused?

I would like to know?

Please note that I have never, ever bashed your beliefs.

I do not, however, have any patience for hypocrisy, which is what brought me to this site.

As I have stated before, I am not here to convert anyone, or deconvert as the case may be.

My objective, has been and always will be, to question. Too long, too many people have taken up the banner of religion (note I said RELIGION, not just Christianity) without honestly questioning why. How many people do you know have no clue that Easter and Christmas have their roots in pagan holidays? How many people do you know TRULY understand what they believe in? For those that do, there are more that do not.

Is it wrong to exercise your faith? Or is it better to never question your beliefs? Does my existence here upset you because I make you question things that you've never questioned before?

Would you rather I pack up and leave?

Are you that afraid of what you might discover?

 

[PapaToad]

MOSES COMMENT I think he harden his heart to make him charge thru the sea after them. SoI do not know, I stoped demanding answers from God a while Back. Like I said I believe and he has not failed me.

PROOF COMMENT
I am sure your tryong to prove something. But unless you have faith all the proof in the world doesn't matter. To me personally I sense your angry either at christians for believeing or yourself for being unable to. Your comments are pointed, heated and I am sorry but you come off as abasher.

Then I could be wrong, I am not God

It does not matter why i believe or how I believe

It only matters that I do

No matter how unreasonable it is to you

Faith

that somes it up,

either you got it or you don't

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]You are also telling me that Pharaoh, in the midst of seven massive cataclysms would still refuse God, and that God knew this ahead of time. If this is true, then WHY would God need to harden his heart? If God knew ahead of time that Pharaoh would hold out until the end, which is what you have said, then why did God feel the need to interfere?

I don't know that answer. Maybe to make it happen faster? Maybe pharoh was taking to long and God wanted the israelites out of egypt before they turned on moses. I can't give you that answer and I doubt many can beyond speculation.

Quote[/b] ]And I'm sorry, but for every one like you, who is intelligent and actually understands what and why he believes, there are 10 people that are clueless and are religious because that was how they were brought up and never question their beliefs. That goes both ways, there are "athiests" that refuse to believe in anything without even doing any research. That is just as wrong.

I agree. The difference between me and you is I look for answers to bolster my faith, you look for answers to prove it wrong.

I don't claim to have all the answers about God, or why things happen the way they do, but I understand a little about the nature of God. He wants us to love and worship him because we want to, not because we have to. He has given us the ability to chose to follow Him or not. If we were forced into that role, our lives would have no point, no meaning. Why are there bad things in this world? Because humans make bad choices. We are selfish as a race, greedy and full of sin. The way of the world is a much easier road to follow, thats for sure. And why is this? I think it is because God wants to make sure those who spend eternity with him are those who truely want to.

Cory

 

[PapaToad]

I stopped fearing along time ago
You have bashed
You have said, that you have no patience for hypocrisy,
How are we because we believe?
You are the one trying to poke holes in our beliefs, looking for any chance to debate comments.

I am not afraid of what you’ll uncover
Because either you have faith or you don’t
And In the end you will find out it ready doesn’t do anything beside stir the beehive

If you don’t believe too bad so sad.
We are called to be encourages of the word
Not stumbling blocks to our brothers and sisters
Who have you encouraged while you have been here?

I am sorry to spin off, I just felt it needed to be said.

Do what you will.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]How many people do you know have no clue that Easter and Christmas have their roots in pagan holidays? How many people do you know TRULY understand what they believe in? For those that do, there are more that do not.

Easter is a Babylonian fertility ritual. Christmas is celebrated on an Medeo-Persian worship holiday for an unborn child of a godess.

All of the holidays incorperated by the catholic church are of pagan origin. Just as is the worship of Mary, the queen of heaven, is of pagan origin as well.

Yea, I know

save it for another thread.

Quote[/b] ]Would you rather I pack up and leave?

Not really, you bring some good conversation. While I don't agree with you on most things, I do agree with you on some. Mainly being that most people, no matter the belief, never question or try to understand it.

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]MOSES COMMENT I think he harden his heart to make him charge thru the sea after them. SoI do not know, I stoped demanding answers from God a while Back. Like I said I believe and he has not failed me.

God hardened his heart long before going through the Red Sea. That's the problem, he hardened his heart DURING the plagues. Check Exodus 8.

Quote[/b] ]PROOF COMMENT
I am sure your tryong to prove something. But unless you have faith all the proof in the world doesn't matter. To me personally I sense your angry either at christians for believeing or yourself for being unable to. Your comments are pointed, heated and I am sorry but you come off as abasher.

Pointed and heated I agree with. Tell me why you think I'm a basher, otherwise I'll never know what to change not to upset you.

Quote[/b] ]It does not matter why i believe or how I believe

It only matters that I do

Eh? That makes no sense, especially since you question the why's and how's of unbelievers.

Quote[/b] ]Faith

that somes it up,

either you got it or you don't

I don't.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]I don't know that answer. Maybe to make it happen faster? Maybe pharoh was taking to long and God wanted the israelites out of egypt before they turned on moses. I can't give you that answer and I doubt many can beyond speculation.

I simply choose to speculate rather than swallow it all without question.

Quote[/b] ]I agree. The difference between me and you is I look for answers to bolster my faith, you look for answers to prove it wrong.

Well I can't really bolster something I don't have. And if I prove MYSELF wrong, well, that only leaves God now doesn't it?

Quote[/b] ]I don't claim to have all the answers about God, or why things happen the way they do, but I understand a little about the nature of God. He wants us to love and worship him because we want to, not because we have to.

Why does an omnimax NEED us to worship him? There are more questions about the nature of God than there are answers.

Quote[/b] ]He has given us the ability to chose to follow Him or not. If we were forced into that role, our lives would have no point, no meaning.

I disagree. Do you love your parents any less knowing you come from them? If God created me, why are there so many obstacles in believing in him? Assuming you are correct, then I am doomed to an everlasting hell because I couldn't wrap my head around the intangible.

Quote[/b] ]Why are there bad things in this world? Because humans make bad choices. We are selfish as a race, greedy and full of sin. The way of the world is a much easier road to follow, thats for sure. And why is this? I think it is because God wants to make sure those who spend eternity with him are those who truely want to.

But we are the imperfect creation of a perfect being. If we are greedy and full of sin it is because we were made that way. We exist in a world of evil because God made it that way. Humanity has been doomed due to TWO people and we are denied the ability to make a logical, rational choice based on fact.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Sep. 03 2004,10:14)]

Quote[/b] ]I stopped fearing along time ago
You have bashed
You have said, that you have no patience for hypocrisy,
How are we because we believe?
You are the one trying to poke holes in our beliefs, looking for any chance to debate comments.

I have no patience for hypocrisy in any shape or form. I will not, can not, apologize for that. I thought this was a board for debate. Look under where it says RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION and you will find these words, "For civilized discussion and civilized debate: In the end, if you cant agree, then agree to disagree."

What are we supposed to debate about then?

Quote[/b] ]I am not afraid of what you’ll uncover
Because either you have faith or you don’t
And In the end you will find out it ready doesn’t do anything beside stir the beehive

I am sorry I disturbed the calm waters.

Quote[/b] ]If you don’t believe too bad so sad.
We are called to be encourages of the word
Not stumbling blocks to our brothers and sisters
Who have you encouraged while you have been here?

You follow a different calling than I do, I haven't been called to encourage anyone. LOL and I love your attitude, too bad, so sad for me, I'm doomed to everlasting hell. All you left out was the Neener neener neener.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 03 2004,10:14)]Not really, you bring some good conversation.  While I don't agree with you on most things, I do agree with you on some.  Mainly being that most people, no matter the belief, never question or try to understand it.

And that to me is what it's all about.

Intelligent conversation where you actually LEARN something.

I think it's very very sad how many people follow their own paths and never question anything about it.

 

[Mr.Bill]

I know what bashing is, and what DV has been doing is not that.

Also, I would be wary of attacking non-christians' seemingly ironic attendance to this Christian forum. It's called religious discussion for a reason. There's also a reason for the massive amounts of posting that occurs here, on both sides. People want to affirm their beliefs, qualify and question them if you will. I come here because I am not entirely certain on the topic of faith, hence my agnosticism. I hope to learn from different perspectives, and maybe introduce a few new ideas in others as well. And of course, I have a bit of a passion for arguement. Humm, I don't know where I'm going with this. Back on topic!

Quote[/b] ]And I'm sorry, but for every one like you, who is intelligent and actually understands what and why he believes, there are 10 people that are clueless and are religious because that was how they were brought up and never question their beliefs. That goes both ways, there are "athiests" that refuse to believe in anything without even doing any research. That is just as wrong.

FYI, this is basically what I am getting at with this thread. Even if you did acertain your beliefs in an effective and assurable manner, there are so many others who, quite literally, based their decision entirely on 'faith.' Luck, chance, whatever you want to call it, it was largely a random occurance that they became a christian, a jew, a buddhist, etc. And my point is, knowing that this is so, how can you justify the assumption that your belief system is the only one that's right? Maybe you are right, but then using the thinking strategy of faith, the Muslims are right, and the Jews are right, the Buddhists are right, everyone is right. Anyone can be right. This is where our body counts come from, folks. It's not a good way to decide what you're going to believe in. Ok, I'll stop being redundant now.

 

[Jim]

Sorry to bring this up again, but the topic of fate vs free will is important to me. It is one of the reasons I rejected religion (Should I make a new topic?)

Quote[/b] ] How do bad thing happen to good people. Simply FREE WILL , a big gorilla of a man could walk up to you and slap your teeth out. God did not allow that, it was the big gorilla of a man who chose not to walk in Gods way and hurt you. All God did was allow him to exercise his freewill.

Along with:

Quote[/b] ]You don't seem to understand. We don't believe in luck. Luck means that it was never in Gods hands to begin with. When you trust fully in God, you have no need for irrational concepts like luck, chance, or anything that takes God out of the picture and places it into the hands of something else. I believe that God causes or allows everything to happen for a reason.

Isn't this a contradiction? On the one hand you have free will causing someone to come up and hit you, on the other, Thad is stating that there is no such thing as luck, chance or whatever. Again I present you the case of the violent mugging. Was this free will or fate? If it was free will, how can you state that bad things happen for a reason? And if it was fate, was the victim doomed to die from the start, and people like me, Bill and Dv all doomed to hell with no possible hope of recourse (Unless a miraculous event converts one or more of us)? And wouldn't fate contradict the idea that we are responsible for our own evil, our own sins?

Quote[/b] ]Also, I don't think I said that God made people do bad things. People make those choices to do good or bad deeds. God can use people either way in someone elses life.

In a way, you did. You stated that there is no such thing as luck and chance. It is all ordained by God. Therefore a murder or a rape, whatever the positive outcomes later in the victim or criminals life, was also ordained by God. What kind of fate is it to require a rape in order to change you? or the death of a friend or family member to teach you?

Should I make a new thread? Maybe I'm branching too far away from the topic.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Sep. 03 2004,10:14)]I am not afraid of what you’ll uncover
Because either you have faith or you don’t
And In the end you will find out it ready doesn’t do anything beside stir the beehive

Whoa, you compare yourself and your fellow believers to a beehive? Funny, sometimes I do as well.

 

[PapaToad]

I am sorry if I come out half cocked, i am not against discerning the truth and sometime you can read in to the post. I just find it a matter of faith

either you have it or you don't

you either believe or you won't

you will never find enough evidence about and phiosiphy or religion were we all can agree.

I think thats Gods humour at work.

I was a ( Free thinker for years)

the spiritaul man really put it in perspective for me.

so thats my stance good, bad ugly

Faith its there or its not and without it, it gets pretty bleak

 

[Mr.Bill]

It's called life, I am afraid...

 

[Dark Virtue]

And how are you supposed to come by Faith?

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 03 2004,12:38)]And how are you supposed to come by Faith?

Romans 10:17

Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the Word of Christ.