How did you ascertain your faith?

[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 02 2004,1:59)]Why not.  He knew that pharoh would not turn to Him so He caused his heart to harden.  Seems logical to me and it served its purpose.
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This is actually quite illogical.

If God knew that Pharoah wouldn't turn to him, then why the need to harden his heart, and do it several times?

God removed Pharoah's Free Will and did so to serve His own purpose.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This is actually quite illogical.

If God knew that Pharoah wouldn't turn to him, then why the need to harden his heart, and do it several times?

God removed Pharoah's Free Will and did so to serve His own purpose.
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The choice was already made. God just solidified it. I still don't see a problem here.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 02 2004,2:34)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This is actually quite illogical.

If God knew that Pharoah wouldn't turn to him, then why the need to harden his heart, and do it several times?

God removed Pharoah's Free Will and did so to serve His own purpose.
Click to expand...

The choice was already made.  God just solidified it.  I still don't see a problem here.  

Cory
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The problem is that God never gave Pharoah the chance to change his mind until it was too late.

Why the need to send Moses to Pharoah seven times?
 
I would have to say to teach a lesson to Moses and the Israelites who were in captivity.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]THE STORY OF MOSES AND HIS EXTRAORDINARY LEADERSHIP. Exodus 5-14


Moses grapples with Pharaoh to extract the people of Israel from their prolonged slavery in Egypt. God is helping out, but not in a smooth, painless fashion, rather in a lengthy campaign of agony that ends up with the mass drowning of Pharaoh and his army. Moses finds himself with 600,000 Israelites facing the desert, on their long walk towards the promised land.



Exodus Chapter 5: Moses first appeal to Pharaoh ends up hurting Israel. Moses asks Pharaoh to give Israel a three day break to worship their God. Pharaoh dismisses the request, and issues orders for harsher work schedule, to rid Israel from thinking such thoughts of relief. Moses is disheartened by the outcome of his appeal, and complains to God about it. 23 verses.


Exodus Chapter 6: God reassures Moses. God reminds Moses of the long standing contract with the paternal origin of the people of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and reassured him of redeeming Israel in the promised land. Moses wonders: my own people have dismissed me (after the debacle of the first appeal), how in the world would Pharaoh listen to me? God reassures Moses, and reaffirms Aaron as Moses' spokesman. The chapter mentions specific families among Israel -- destined for freedom. 30 verses.



Exodus Chapter 7: Moses tries (in vain) to Impress Pharaoh with divine miracles: staff turns into snake, water into blood. Moses turn his staff into a snake, then turns the water of the Nile to blood, to impress Pharaoh with the validity and power of God of Israel. Pharaoh mimics some of those "tricks" with his own tricksters, and otherwise is not overly impressed, and does not acquiesce to Moses. 29 verses.



Exodus Chapter 8: Moses Afflicts Pharaoh thrice more. Pharaoh remains stubborn. 28 verses. Moses afflicts the Egyptians with swarming frogs, a lice attack, and with wild animals. Each times Pharaoh may say he obliges Moses demand to allow the Israelites to walk out into the desert for three days to worship their God, and each time he rescinds his ascent.


Exodus Chapter 9: Three more futile afflictions: plague, skin disease, and hail 35 verses. The afflictions by pass Israel and impress Pharaoh who yields in exchange of undoing of the affliction, only to change his mind once the affliction is off.


Exodus Chapter 10: Two more plagues (locust, darkness) subdue Pharaoh but only temporarily. 29 verses. God explains to Moses why He chooses this prolonged sequence to free his people: to make this a story worth telling generations to come -- the power and the immensity of God. After rescinding his decision to allow Israel to go worship God in the desert for three days, Moses threatens to bestow upon Egypt the plague of locust. They would consume all the green left after the hail. Pharaoh's advisors urge him to let Israel go because Egypt is dying. Pharaoh, reluctantly, summons Moses and his brother Aaron and offers a deal: Only the men would go, and the women and children would be left behind. Obviously, Pharaoh fears that Israel would not return to its slaveposts after the three day holiday, and his counteroffer seeks to secure their return. Moses replies: No deal! The negotiations collapse, and Moses unleashes the locust. God blows an eastern wind that brings forth swarms of locust. They prove themselves devastating, finishing up all resources left after the previous plagues. Pharaoh has no choice but to summon Moses, and plead with him to remove this awful death from the land of Egypt. Moses complies, and God blows a western wind that cleans Egypt from the locust. No sooner is the locust out of the way, and Pharaoh hardens his heart once more. God then instructs Moses to point his arm (not his staff this time!) to the heavens, and plunge the land of Egypt into pitch darkness. For three days Egyptians could not see each other; however, it was light as usual in the land of Goshen where the Israelites resided. This is a curious plague: didn't the Egyptian see each other, even when they lit fire? Was there a sharp borderline between the dark area, and the lit area? Pharaoh summons Moses once more and offers a deal: "Go, with the women and children, but leave behind the cattle and the livestock." Moses: "Not good enough. We must leave with all our livestock because we need it to sacrifice to our God, and we don't know ahead of time, which animals would be needed for the sacrifice. And besides, we expect you to gift us some livestock before we go!" Pharaoh is naturally incensed, orders Moses and Aaron out, saying: "Don't come to see me again, because the day you do, is the day you die!" Moses replies: "Like you say, I shall see you no more!"


Exodus Chapter 11: God plans to kill the first born in all of Egypt. 10 verses. God divulges to Moses his plan to kill all the first born in Egypt -- the rich and the poor, even the animal's first born! At the same time Israel would be spared. Gold also instruct Moses to instruct Israel to borrow gold and silver from each other -- the purpose is unclear.



Exodus Chapter 12: God kills Egypt's first born, and designates Passover as an eternal Jewish celebration. 51 verses. After 430 years in Egypt, God instructs Israel to dress up, bake unleavened bread and mark their abodes with blood, so that the angel of death would by-pass them. The unleavened bread must be consumed for seven days, by everyone, including all guests and foreign residents. That month is designated as the first month of the year. The event of redemption is to be honored with consumption of unleavened bread throughout the ages. In the middle of the night Egypt's first born are struck dead. Pharaoh is jolted and immediately agrees to give leave to Israel, including the women, and the cattle. What's more, Pharaoh says: "Prey for me too!" Israel exploits the Egyptian agony and borrows utensils of gold and silver from ordinary Egyptians, and are ready to move out!



Exodus, Chapter 13: Instructions to celebrate Passover. 22 verses. Moses bids Israel to remember for generations the strong hand God applied to redeem them from Egypt. Israel should redeem its first borns -- spared when God has smitten the Egyptian first born. This chapter gives the instructions for passover: seven days without leavened bread, and constant remembrance of the strong hand God used to redeem Israel from Egypt.


Exosodus, Chapter 14: The Climax of the Moses-Pharoh Saga -- drowning of Pharoh and his mighty forces. Once the Israelites were gone, albeit by Pharoh's agreement, the king of Egypt had second thoughts (as usual). He reasoned that the Israelites must be lost in the desert, and marshalled his army to give chase. When Israel saw Pharoh chasing them, they panicked, but Moses beefed up their spirit saying with great drama: "You shall not see these Egyptians again, after today! All that you have to do is watch!" Moses then cried to God for rescue, and God instructed Moses to lift his staff towards the red sea, and it would part. Moses did so, and an eastern wind blew all night until the water parted. All the while the pillar of smoke, and God's angel positioned themselves behind Israel, and in front of the Egyptians, protecting the former from the latter. Israel crossed the sea in the dry opening, and Pharoh followed them forth with. God has shocked the Egyptians, and monkey-wrenched their chariot wheels (it happened after dawn), until the Egyptians realized that a divine force works against them. They admitted as much and turned back, only that by then God instructed Moses to lift his staff again towards the water, and the sea closed down on the trapped army, and no one survived. The Israelites, watching all this from the crossed bank, became profound believers in God, and in his prophet Moses.
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Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]That of course does not negate free will any more than allowing a child to reap the punishment for their actions when you know what they are going to do and what the consequences will be
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I disagree. I feel it is closer to channeling a person into misery or pain or even death, then blaming their free will.
 
I'll try to make my point clearer.

On one hand you have fate. You say bad things happen because God makes them happen to us to strengthen us, give us experience.

But doesn't this require other people to carry out those acts? In short, God is making these people do evil things, otherwise he wouldn't be controlling fate.

But if God makes people do evil things to another person, like murder, how can you justify punishment of the murderer if he was simply complying with Fate?

Edit: And about free will, fate and free will are mutually exclusive. You cannot have a person exercising free will while having God influence their actions through fate. It can be likened to two guys in a car, one in the driver seat, but the guy in the passenger seat keeps stepping in and taking over. Think carefully about combining free will and Fate, and you'll find you cannot have them together to the extent you are suggesting.

another edit: Okay, the car is a lame example, but it was all I could come up with, I have a class in about three seconds
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Why not. He knew that pharoh would not turn to Him so He caused his heart to harden. Seems logical to me and it served its purpose.
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i.e. mercy is available only to those who God feels is worthy? Repentence and forgiveness anyone?
 
Yes, God is merciful for those who ask. Repentance and forgiveness is given thru Christ.

We are saved by grace (Gods grace)

For all have fallen short of the Glory of God

Now for you non Christians this will be hard to understand. But its true you are other saved or not.

God will not make people do evil things, If the pharaoh would have asked Gods guidance and commit to God, I am sure the story would have been different.

Also the pharaoh chose to separate himself for God as many people do the they wonder why don’t I “””Get””” Christians
 
OT and NT two different things, I think if the are revenant to the Lord yes. If you are a a vile murder who is only out to save his skin and now realize your goose is cooked no

If you are repentant yes

If the OT there we sacrifices to cover the sin


In the NT


Romans 10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[1] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

And yes God will be merciful
 
Wait, wait, wait!

Just answer the question SIMPLY.

Are you seriously saying that God ALWAYS is merciful to his faithful followers?
 
Define Mercy? If a follower was faithful He would be graced to heaven. So Yes. Whyare you so agitated? And how much more SIMPLY can it get.

Does not Christ say

ASK and you will recieve, Knock and it will open?

You tell me then if my answer is not to you liking:D
 
Mercy:

Compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power.
A blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion.
Compassionate treatment of those in distress.

Now if God is omnimax, then He would have ultimate Mercy, would he not?

Now how does a God with ultimate mercy, who according to you ALWAYS shows mercy to His faithful, how does this God allow horrible pain and agony to afflict his faithful?

How do faithful little old ladies get beaten, robbed and raped?

How do faithful parents explain God's ultimate mercy to their child that has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease?

After all, you did say God ALWAYS shows his faithful mercy.
 
That plank is really big for you isn’t it.

Tell me what that suffer is when you bask in Gods glory, when you walk in heaven and talk face to face with Jesus. When warring and ministering Angels comfort you before the throne of God.’

See I find that this life is marred with challenges and no where is is say it was going to be easy. And if you do not understand, or can not grasp it because it makes no sense to you. Well, that must be a challenge.

How do bad thing happen to good people. Simply FREE WILL , a big gorilla of a man could walk up to you and slap your teeth out. God did not allow that, it was the big gorilla of a man who chose not to walk in Gods way and hurt you. All God did was allow him to exercise his freewill.

IS God merciful? YES!
Do we always understand a see his mercy while we are here no, but its there. I do not know how we got to Gods mercy so let me recap.

How did you ascertain your faith:

Determine
Establish
Discover
Find out
Learn
Make certain



I DV ascertained my FAITH, thru believe in GOD, and Jesus died for my Sins. He sent the Holy Spirit so I could directly commune with the Lord and Savoir. Pretty neat!

I believe because I talk with God every day. Because I connect with the Holy Spirit and I get tangible results from my God. I follow the Living God and He has been merciful to me and has graced my life.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How do bad thing happen to good people. Simply FREE WILL , a big gorilla of a man could walk up to you and slap your teeth out. God did not allow that, it was the big gorilla of a man who chose not to walk in Gods way and hurt you. All God did was allow him to exercise his freewill.

IS God merciful? YES!
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You're right, I do not, have not, nor ever will understand how people like you can glean the smatter of "mercy" from an omnimax that now only allows evil to exist, but created the damn thing to start with.  Look at what you said above.  God did not allow that big man to hurt someone, right?  He did it of his own free will?  Sorry, but doesn't that encroach on the VICTIM'S free will?  The victim didn't exercise his free will to be hurt, and God, in all his mercy, allows this all to happen.

You're only excuse is that God will make it up to them when they die.  Gee thanks God!

How did you ascertain your faith?  I'll tell you.

Determine  I determined that an Omnimax most probably does not exist.
Establish  I established a set of guidelines that must be met for me to believe in an Omnimax or his Bible.
Discover  I discovered that the majority of Christians have no clue why they do the things they do.
Find out  I am finding out that people would rather delude themselves that face facts.
Learn  I am learning every day.  About God, about the Bible, about Faith.
Make certain  I am certain, without a shadow of a doubt, that I am on the right path.

I will NOT put my faith, hope and love in the God of the Bible. I will NOT put my faith in a book that contains errors, however small, that is supposed to represent an Omnimax.
 
God is in control, yes. He knows everything begining to end. He knows who will repent and who will not. He knows who will be and heaven and who will not. He knows our hearts and the sincerity of our actions.

Free will is the choices we exercise everyday. We make choices on whether our actions will Glorify God or not. We make a choice on whether we will follow God or not. This is the free will in our lives that was given to us by God.

Fate, as you call it, does not mean you cannot still have free will. Lets go back to the pharoh story again. God knew that pharoh would not repent or turn to him. God used pharoh to His cause, even though pharoh rejected God.

Also, I don't think I said that God made people do bad things. People make those choices to do good or bad deeds. God can use people either way in someone elses life.

Cory
 
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