How did you ascertain your faith?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Maybe that was the right choice, and maybe he or she justifies that choice with evidence gathered after the fact, but the fact of the matter is that the person got there merely by luck.
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You don't seem to understand. We don't believe in luck. Luck means that it was never in Gods hands to begin with. When you trust fully in God, you have no need for irrational concepts like luck, chance, or anything that takes God out of the picture and places it into the hands of something else. I believe that God causes or allows everything to happen for a reason.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Then why a Christian god and not, say, a Muslim god? What if you were born in Iran? Vietnam? How do you know that your religion is the only one that is 'right'? Or is there even a 'right'? Theeese are the questions.
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My religion teaches that I cannot work my way to heaven. All the others impose law above faith.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They are 1. reason (evidentialism), 2. faith (fideism), and 3. emotion (relativeism)
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Faith. As unreasonable as that is to you, it is my final answer.
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Cory
 
I am not sure that you all quite understand what I am asking.  When you were going about actually choosing what religion you were going to place your faith in, BEFORE you were actually a member of that religoin, how did you go about making this decision?  Or was there such a decision period? You say that god came to you, well, ok, but he also came to the followers of every other religion.  Even if Christianity is the only true religion, you must admit that what I am implying does happen. If people are raised into or are surrounded by a particular faith or belief system they are much more prone to adopting that belief system.  Is it the 'right' one?  Maybe, but how do they know for sure?  This is the luck I am mentioning.  The word scares you I know, but recognize it as what I am getting at, not what you may think I'm implying.  And in knowing that this sort of thing does occur, and perhaps has occured in the generation of your own belief system, how do you know that your religion is correct and all others are not?  You have faith in it, yes, but you could have just as easily have had faith in Buddism, were you under the right set of circumstances.  If followers of other religions are confused, who's to say you aren't as well?
 
Well...

I renew my faith fairly often, and become a new Christian in doing that.  Because of this, there is no one time that I became a follower of Christ; I have become a follower of Christ many times.

Everytime I become a Christian it has been because of one of two things.  I learn or witness something incredible that has happened that I believe God had a hand in.  For example, there was a large group of friends that prayed for a specific something for a friend of mine, and at that very same moment their prayer for my friend was answered - I of course believe this to be an act of God.  As I see these really cool happenings and blessings take place the more firmly I believe and have faith in the God I am following.

Um, I like to believe that it takes a seed of faith before you start to see miracles take place.  This isn't always true, but I feel that once you have that seed you can begin to see some of the really cool things that sometimes only a Christian can experience.  This of course establishes your faith.  There is a quote by David Wilkerson that I tend to agree with when he says, "The Spirit of God is a consuming fire, and the faith in a man is the fuel."
 
Um, I might not have been clear before, but what I am trying to get across is that sometimes you have to have a little bit of faith first, and then you can understand the validity of Jesus Christ. As strange as it seems, it's not the other way around.
 
Allow me to ask you a question Mr.Bill....

Lets say you were given a list of religions to choose from before you were born. And on that list there were descriptions of each religion. Also below that were a list of ways to prove that religion was correct or false. Would you pick a religion that was not able to be proven, or would you pick one that had ways to prove it is valid?

In Christ,
Gabriel
 
If there was a god and being christian was the right religion, y would he give u a list of religions to pick from.
No religion can be proven to be valid. The Bible was written using some historical facts, thats not that hard to do. They just justified some of the actions in the world with god. A christmas carol probobly has some facts that are true, maybe in 2000 years we'll think its the word of god.

What I'm trying to say is u don't know. U can't say one religion is more valid than the other.

Here's a good question what do u think will happen if u take the bible and u take a book of fairy tales. Then give it to your child, and tell him that the book of fairy tales is true and the word of god, and the bible is full of children stories. And say he gives the book to his children and so on. Do u think 1000 years in the future they'd be in church right now discussing how the wolf tried to blow the 3 little pigs houses down. Just a thought.
 
Mechboy you are not reading the reasons for validity. I will state it again, perhaps you will see it this time. PROPHECY. That is the reason the Bible is true and can be proven true. It is the only reason others can be proven false. PROPHECY. Prophecy = foreknowledge of events. Buddha didnt predict the future, Mohammed didnt predict the future.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Arkanjel @ Sep. 01 2004,7:12)]Allow me to ask you a question Mr.Bill....

Lets say you were given a list of religions to choose from before you were born. And on that list there were descriptions of each religion. Also below that were a list of ways to prove that religion was correct or false. Would you pick a religion that was not able to be proven, or would you pick one that had ways to prove it is valid?

In Christ,
Gabriel
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I would go with proof, of course. But this is not just about whether Christianity is 'true' or not. If had to pick a religion, agnosticm not an option, I would probably choose Christianity too. What I am talking about is HOW thay choice is made. Maybe you made your choice in an effective manner, but you must admit that there are thousands upon thousands in this world who did not. And that is important to consider..
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Arkanjel @ Sep. 01 2004,9:36)]Mechboy you are not reading the reasons for validity. I will state it again, perhaps you will see it this time. PROPHECY. That is the reason the Bible is true and can be proven true. It is the only reason others can be proven false. PROPHECY. Prophecy = foreknowledge of events. Buddha didnt predict the future, Mohammed didnt predict the future.

In Christ,
Gabriel
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Could you give me a few examples of these prophecies that ended up being true? I'm not familiar with the subject..
 
I got a short list

Daniel Chapter 11 is a very good list of fulfilled prophecy.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Dan 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

The angel is speaking here. He helped establish Darius as king in the first year of his reign.


Dan 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

There were three other kings of Persia after Cyrus: Ahasureus, Artaxerxes, and Darius. These were followed by a fourth, Xerxes, who trained an army of two million men. After training his army, he attacked and conquered Greece.


Dan 11:3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

The "mighty king" here is Alexander the Great.


Dan 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

The prophecy here says that Alexander would be cut off in his prime. His kingdom was divided between four of his generals.

Dan 11:5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and [one] of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion [shall be] a great dominion.

The "king of the south" was Ptolemy, the general who ruled Egypt. The "king of the north" was Seleucus, the general who took Syria. Israel was between the two kingdoms and suffered from the continual warfare between them.


Dan 11:6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in [these] times.
Dan 11:7 But out of a branch of her roots shall [one] stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:

The kings of Egypt and Syria made a peace pact after Ptolemy helped Seleucus regain control of Syria. To seal the bargain Ptolemy gave his daughter, Berenice, to Seleucus for his wife. Seleucus divorced his wife and married Berenice. However when Ptolemy died, Seleucus left Berenice and took back his former wife. She poisoned Seleucus and had Berenice and her son assassinated. Then the former wife's son became the new Syrian king.


Dan 11:8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, [and] with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue [more] years than the king of the north.

Berenice's brother was now the Egyptian king. He invaded and defeated Syria to avenge his sister's death. He took the fortresses and plundered Syria of its gods, gold, and costly vessels.


Dan 11:9 So the king of the south shall come into [his] kingdom, and shall return into his own land.
Dan 11:10 But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and [one] shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, [even] to his fortress.

The king of Syria and his brothers attacked Egypt.


Dan 11:11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, [even] with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.
Dan 11:12 [And] when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down [many] ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened [by it].

Egypt again fought with Syria and again defeated her, but the Egyptian king didn't follow up his victory by strengthening his position.


Dan 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.
Dan 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

Syria again attacked Egypt. Some of the Jews turned against their brothers to help the Syrian king.


Dan 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither [shall there be any] strength to withstand.
Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

The "glorious land" is Israel.

Dan 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand [on his side], neither be for him.

The Syrian king gave his daughter, Cleopatra, to the young Egyptian king. However, Cleopatra turned against Syria and stood with Egypt. She was very ambitious for Egypt and began to make political deals with Rome, a rising power.


Dan 11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause [it] to turn upon him.
Dan 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.

The Syrian king began to attack Rome along the shores of Asia Minor. He was defeated, and the terms of peace called for him to pay huge taxes. He was killed when he tried to plunder a temple for tax money.


Dan 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

His son was mysteriously poisoned.


Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Antiochus Epiphanes was the next king of Syria. He won his throne by flattery.


Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Dan 11:23 And after the league [made] with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Antiochus killed any people he perceived were a challenge to his reign.


Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Antiochus hated the Jews. He killed and enslaved thousands of them.


Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

He attacked Egypt and defeated her.


Dan 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
Dan 11:27 And both these kings' hearts [shall be] to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end [shall be] at the time appointed.
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart [shall be] against the holy covenant; and he shall do [exploits], and return to his own land.
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

He again tried to attack Egypt, but the Roman navy fought him off.


Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Antiochus was angry and frustrated by the Roman defense. He lashed out at Israel and on God's temple. His sacrifice of a pig on the holy altar was "the abomination which maketh desolate." Antiochus is a symbolic Antichrist. The Antichrist will also stop the daily sacrifices and prayers in the temple and will pollute the sanctuary with the demand that he be worshipped. This will be the "abomination of desolation."


Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].

Judas Maccabaeus and other young Jewish men were angered by the pollution of the temple. They took revenge on Syria.
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The rest of the chapter is futuristic prophecy to us still, but this part has already occured.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You don't seem to understand. We don't believe in luck. Luck means that it was never in Gods hands to begin with. When you trust fully in God, you have no need for irrational concepts like luck, chance, or anything that takes God out of the picture and places it into the hands of something else. I believe that God causes or allows everything to happen for a reason.
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**Puts flak jacket on** Whew, here goes.

This is jumping back on this forum a bit, but think of this:

Imagine a guy gets knocked down. He steps out and a car hits him.

Since this is most likely an accident (Except in Glasgow
tounge.gif
), this is called a RCO or 'random chance occurence'. Imagine the guy happens to forget his wallet or something and goes back into the house to get it. The car would have passed by by the time he gets there. Or imagine he needs to go to the toilet, stops to go to a shop... the possible occurences which would throw off this accident are near limitless.

Did God play a hand in this? Or was this down to chance/luck (or lack of it)?

What if some thugs were walking down a street and spot someone who they then mug for his/her cash. The victim is killed. Again, the same laws of RCO apply, any number of occurences could have allowed the victim to avoid this fate. Is this God's choice? Does he make choices like that?

My point is, not everything can be justified through divine intervention.
 
Let me reiterate it since you missed it in the quote you made from me. I do not believe in luck. I do not believe in chance. I do not believe in RCO. I believe that God is in control of my life. Everything that happens to me is for a reason. Is it to help me grow in faith? Is it to help me learn patience or understanding? Every bad thing that happens I can learn from in my life and apply it or use it be be a better person. While God may not play a hand directly in it, If you read the book of Job, you will understand that God allows things to happen to us so that we grow and turn to Him. Call it how you want it, but thats where we are going to differ.

Cory
 
Perhaps it was miscommuinication on my part, but correct me if I'm wrong, you believe in God's complete control over our fates, our lives?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 02 2004,8:27)]Let me reiterate it since you missed it in the quote you made from me.  I do not believe in luck.  I do not believe in chance.  I do not believe in RCO.  I believe that God is in control of my life.  Everything that happens to me is for a reason.  Is it to help me grow in faith?  Is it to help me learn patience or understanding?  Every bad thing that happens I can learn from in my life and apply it or use it be be a better person.  While God may not play a hand directly in it, If you read the book of Job, you will understand that God allows things to happen to us so that we grow and turn to Him.  Call it how you want it, but thats where we are going to differ.

Cory
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That puts us in a bit of logical trap, no?
 
What my point was, through my example of the thugs killing the innocent victim, is that in this case, by the God controls fate logic, it is not the victim but his family and friends who are tested, while the victim is consigned to an early grave. An altruist who allows the death of one of His children to teach his family/friends a life lesson?

On a lesser note, if God controls our fates, surely we are fated to, or at least more inclined to commit evil if God wills it?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Let me reiterate it since you missed it in the quote you made from me. I do not believe in luck. I do not believe in chance. I do not believe in RCO.
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I guess all those Statisticians are out of a job. What about Vegas? God controls every roll of every die?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I believe that God is in control of my life.
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What happened to Free Will?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Every bad thing that happens I can learn from in my life and apply it or use it be be a better person.
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This applies equally to non-theists as well as theists.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]While God may not play a hand directly in it, If you read the book of Job, you will understand that God allows things to happen to us so that we grow and turn to Him.
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Whoa, that's a mighty erroneous statement there. God did not allow Satan to play with Job so the he would grow and turn to Him. God allowed Satan to play with Job as a WAGER to see if Job would curse Him. Any further inference you make is up to you, but don't falsify the reason for Job's tests.
 
More or less, I believe that God allows things to happen to people. The choices we make are based apon what happens to us. That is free will. I believe that God is soverign over all, and knows everything that is going to happen. He knows the reaction you will have to it, and allows it to happen.

If you believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God like I do, its pretty easy to understand. That of course does not negate free will any more than allowing a child to reap the punishment for their actions when you know what they are going to do and what the consequences will be. God gave us free will so that we would choose Him. It would be pointless if He made everyone not have a choice as the love would not be genuine.

As for Job, your right, I was infereing too much into the book alone. Job is about a man suffering at the hand of Satan, and not turning from God. He was used as a pawn between God and satan, but the end result was he was blessed for his perserverance and faith.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What my point was, through my example of the thugs killing the innocent victim, is that in this case, by the God controls fate logic, it is not the victim but his family and friends who are tested, while the victim is consigned to an early grave. An altruist who allows the death of one of His children to teach his family/friends a life lesson?

On a lesser note, if God controls our fates, surely we are fated to, or at least more inclined to commit evil if God wills it?
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Why not. He knew that pharoh would not turn to Him so He caused his heart to harden. Seems logical to me and it served its purpose.

Cory
 
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