How did you ascertain your faith?

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Sep. 05 2004,3:50)]

Quote[/b] ]God still interferes and removes Pharaoh's ability to make a decision.  Does He not?

No, Pharaoh was like Jim Kerry, a flip flop.  Waffled on the subject.  Today he says "Okay" to the Isrealites, Tomorrow he says "Noway".  God simply placed his royal waffleness in a position that his flip flopiness would serve Gods purpose.  Now there is a house of pancakes for you.  God hardened pharaohs heart, not necessarily because he stepped all over pharaohs freewill, but because that is what pharaoh wanted.

You don't seem to understand, or are unwilling to admit, that the very act of hardening Pharaoh's heart was the removal of Pharaoh's Free Will.

Somehow I doubt that Pharaoh WANTED God to murder him, his children and countless Egyptians.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]What I have been saying, and you have been avoiding, is that God removed Pharaoh's ability to CHANGE HIS MIND. You know, that little thing called Free Will?

Here, let me state it for you so you'll drop it. Pharoh made a choice. God used that choice for His purpose. Did God take away pharohs free will, yes He did, after the fact. It happens all the time today. Even Paul spoke about it in Romans. Chapter 9

Quote[/b] ]14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

We all must live or die by the choices we make in life. God sometimes keeps us from going back on our choices. God removed pharohs free will after he made the choices he did.

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sheesh, why was that so hard?

 

[Thaddius]

it changes nothing though. I had already stated that God solidified pharohs decision. What is so important to you about those few words?

Cory

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Somehow I doubt that Pharaoh WANTED God to murder him, his children and countless Egyptians

Of course not. Just as thousands of atheist don't want to spend eternity in a lake of fire, but they will. Why will they? They reject God

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

That's a bit different don't you think?

Pharaoh basically had God in His face throwing plagues left and right. Not only were the Egyptians not impressed enough to fear God, but AND I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH, the Israelites didn't think God was up to par to saving them even after all His miracles.

So how do you expect skeptics, thousands of years removed from the presence of God to make a valid decision?

Quote[/b] ]Just as thousands of atheist don't want to spend eternity in a lake of fire, but they will.

Come on now Thad, why did you have to go and say this? Haven't I already proved that nowhere in the Bible does it say that nonbelievers will spend an enternity in a lake of fire? If you can find this in the Bible I will print out all my last posts and eat them and sit next to you in church next Sunday. This statement is just plain stubborness to admit that some Christian views are incorrect. An eternity in a flaming lake is as much realistic as Christ being born on Dec. 25!

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 05 2004,4:54)]

Quote[/b] ]So there you go. My made up world with an all-powerful, loving God may be a pile of horse manure, but it sure beats the crap out of your world of intellectual dogmatism.

I can't believe you actually said that and I truly hope you don't honestly believe that.

Basically you're saying that you chose the blue pill and are happy and content to live in the Matrix. Sure, it's a made up construct, but even with all the evils of the made up world, it's a hell of a lot more comforting than facing a world without your God.

Live in your little made up world then, I for one will choose rationalism.

Well, I'd like to say that I'm sorry that last statement made you uncomfortable, but I'm not. I haven't chosen a blue pill, and I'm not stuck in "the Matrix".

I wish there was some way I could show you the destruction of the path of rationalism. It leads down a road where you first begin to harden your heart, and then begin to disregard it altogether. There are some historical mess-ups in the Bible, you don't physically see His hand coming down to nudge you along, so *POOF* He doesn't exist. I bet you all the money in the world that when you finally decided that you didn't believe in God you felt amazingly good, because you no longer had to stretch, grow, or attempt to live a life of merit. Now it's just you and the world, and you think you can do it all in your own strength. You choose to explain things away rather than think of the possibility of Scripture being true; that there is a God who loves you, and who formed you in your mother's womb, and who sent a part of Himself down here to the freaking hog filth that is this world to bring you into reconciliation with Himself. Because you see the Church's history of selfish deeds and acts of war, you choose to put no hope whatsoever in humanity's participation in the Church.

I know that at least during one point of your life, when you were a believer, that you believed you could feel God, and that you might have heard His quiet voice, or even seen something so preposterous that God could be the only explanation. But then came a point where your faith was tested; and rather than pressing on to learn more about God through it, you gave up on Him. I know the freaking story. I've been there, and I've done that. Rationalism is hell. You don't sleep well at night when you've stopped listening to God's call. You start to tell yourself that the feelings you had were emotionally conditioned responses to stimuli directed toward your feelings and not your brain. You tell yourself that you really just made up all the times you thought you saw and heard God. You tell yourself that Scripture is bull. What a sorry existence. Why don't you get off your high horse of rationalism, seek God through earnest prayer and Scripture, start learning how God does make sense, and come back to me when you can have a conversation without alluding to the fact that your brain can't wrap around God, so therefore He's not there.

Good day.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (TastyWheat @ Sep. 05 2004,6:43)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 05 2004,4:54)]

Quote[/b] ]So there you go.  My made up world with an all-powerful, loving God may be a pile of horse manure, but it sure beats the crap out of your world of intellectual dogmatism.

I can't believe you actually said that and I truly hope you don't honestly believe that.

Basically you're saying that you chose the blue pill and are happy and content to live in the Matrix.  Sure, it's a made up construct, but even with all the evils of the made up world, it's a hell of a lot more comforting than facing a world without your God.

Live in your little made up world then, I for one will choose rationalism.

Well, I'd like to say that I'm sorry that last statement made you uncomfortable, but I'm not.  I haven't chosen a blue pill, and I'm not stuck in "the Matrix".

I wish there was some way I could show you the destruction of the path of rationalism.  It leads down a road where you first begin to harden your heart, and then begin to disregard it altogether.  There are some historical mess-ups in the Bible, you don't physically see His hand coming down to nudge you along, so *POOF* He doesn't exist.  I bet you all the money in the world that when you finally decided that you didn't believe in God you felt amazingly good, because you no longer had to stretch, grow, or attempt to live a life of merit.  Now it's just you and the world, and you think you can do it all in your own strength.  You choose to explain things away rather than think of the possibility of Scripture being true; that there is a God who loves you, and who formed you in your mother's womb, and who sent a part of Himself down here to the freaking hog filth that is this world to bring you into reconciliation with Himself.  Because you see the Church's history of selfish deeds and acts of war, you choose to put no hope whatsoever in humanity's participation in the Church.

I know that at least during one point of your life, when you were a believer, that you believed you could feel God, and that you might have heard His quiet voice, or even seen something so preposterous that God could be the only explanation.  But then came a point where your faith was tested; and rather than pressing on to learn more about God through it, you gave up on Him.  I know the freaking story.  I've been there, and I've done that.  Rationalism is hell.  You don't sleep well at night when you've stopped listening to God's call.  You start to tell yourself that the feelings you had were emotionally conditioned responses to stimuli directed toward your feelings and not your brain.  You tell yourself that you really just made up all the times you thought you saw and heard God.  You tell yourself that Scripture is bull.  What a sorry existence.  Why don't you get off your high horse of rationalism, seek God through earnest prayer and Scripture, start learning how God does make sense, and come back to me when you can have a conversation without alluding to the fact that your brain can't wrap around God, so therefore He's not there.

Good day.

Thank you.

Thank you for a genuinely heartfelt response.

I do have a few problems with it though.

"I bet you all the money in the world that when you finally decided that you didn't believe in God you felt amazingly good, because you no longer had to stretch, grow, or attempt to live a life of merit."

Eh? Are you saying all non-believers don't grow or try to live a life of morality and merit? Sorry, but I disagree strongly with this. Religion is not necessary for morality. I hope you don't actually agree with this statement.

"Why don't you get off your high horse of rationalism, seek God through earnest prayer and Scripture, start learning how God does make sense, and come back to me when you can have a conversation without alluding to the fact that your brain can't wrap around God, so therefore He's not there."

A bit testy aren't we? God, Christianity, the Bible and religion for the most part does not make sense for me. I'm not alone in that feeling either. If you feel that you can fully, honestly rationalize the God of the Old Testament then kudos for you. Some of us can't. Some of us can't close our eyes and fall blindly into that feather bed known as Faith. And yes, some of us REFUSE to rely on something we can't ascertain physically. That's the way it is. If God truly wanted everyone to follow his precepts don't you think we'd have just a tad bit more to go on? God does not intend for everyone to make it to heaven. If he did, he wouldn't have made hell now would he have? He wouldn't have created evil or Satan or demons.

I applaud you for believing in the unbelievable.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Haven't I already proved that nowhere in the Bible does it say that nonbelievers will spend an enternity in a lake of fire?

Hmm..you need to spend more time in Revelations then.

Revelations 13:8

Quote[/b] ]8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelations 19:20-21

Quote[/b] ] 20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

All of Revelations chapter 20.

Quote[/b] ]Revelation 20

1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Pay attention to that last part DV, whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Quote[/b] ]Exod. 32:33: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life.

Ps. 139:16: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." God knows who are his, even before they are born, everyone who lives is written in the book of life.

The book of life is a old and new testament doctrine. Phil 4:3 Paul recognized those who labored with him in the gospel, 'with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life. "

Rev.3:5: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness.

The bible teaches there are three different kinds of death

1) dead in trespasses and sins- we are spiritually dead and severed from a relationship of the true God while we are living because of our sinful condition. "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col 2:13-14;Eph.2:1) 1 Tim 5:7 "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (speaking of being separated from God).

2) physical death- that is the consequence of sins. Rom.3:23 "the wages of sin is death.” (Rom.5) James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead..."

God's solution is the resurrection to eternal life 1 Thess. 4:16-17: " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Rev. 2:11: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

3) the 2nd death- eternal separation from God in both body and spirit.

The second death is the final consequence of refusing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is in reference to having no change, being eternally permanent after they are resurrected. Unbelievers are resurrected brought before the throne and judged, to be sentenced in both body and spirit. All unbelievers from the beginning of time began are resurrected put back in their bodies and then put in the lake of fire in which they will now suffer in both the soul and body forever continuing in even a worse state.

I must have missed the whole thread about there not being a lake of fire....Where might I find this thread?

Some additional information:

Quote[/b] ]Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Quote[/b] ]The judgment of condemnation. If people are not listed in the Book of Life, then they are judged according to his works. It is doubtful that believers (whose names are written in the Book of Life) even stand before this throne; though our works will be judged for reward's sake (Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10). Those who refuse to come to God by faith will, by default, be judged (and condemned) by their works. "The issue is not salvation by works but works as the irrefutable evidence of a man's actual relationship with God." (Mounce).

This is not a trial, trying to determine what the facts are. The facts are in; here is the sentencing of someone already condemned. "Their standing posture means that they are now about to be sentenced." (Walvoord). There are degrees of punishment for unbelievers, according to their works (Matthew 11:20-24).

We note the silence of those being judged; there is nothing for them to say. Many think they will "tell God a thing or two" at the final judgment, as reflected in this letter written to Dear Abby:

Dear Abby: I am troubled with something a reader wrote: "What right do we mortals have to demand an explanation from God?" Abby, that writer has never known the gut-wrenching pain of losing a child.

In 1988, my beautiful, 22-year-old daughter was killed by a drunk driver. At first I screamed: "He not only killed her, he killed me too - only I can't die!"

I then got on my knees and begged God: "You can do anything. You can perform miracles. You can bring my daughter back to life. Please, God, let me trade places with her - please let me lie in that coffin, and let her out to live her life. She is only 22, God. She has never been married or experienced the miracle of being a mother.

"I am old. I have lived. I've had my chance at life, but she hasn't. Please, please, let me trade place with her. You can do it. You can make it so that all the people who thought she died won't be surprised that it's me in the coffin and not her. Please God, let her have a chance to live. She didn't deserve to die!"

As you can see, Abby, I'm still here - and not because I want to be, either. Mostly because I didn't have the guts to pull the trigger or take the pills to get me out of the terrible pain and loss I live with every minute of my life.

God didn't see fit to bargain with me. God doesn't plea bargain like humans do. The drunk who killed my precious daughter (and me, too) spent less than six months behind bars. Today, he walks in the sun while my little girl is in a dark grave - with no sun. And although I also walk in the sun, my heart and soul are in that dark grave with her.

God didn't answer my prayers, and I resent being told that I have no right to question God. If there is a God, and if I ever get to meet him face to face, you can bet your life I will have plenty of whys for him to answer.

I want to know why my little girl died and that drunk was allowed to go on living. I lover her more than my life, and I miss her so. I am mad that I am having to live in a world where she no longer lives, and I want to know why. Why shouldn't I have the right to ask God?

Aren't we supposedly created in his image? If so, surely he has a heart and soul capable of hurting just as I hurt. Why would he not expect to be questioned if he has anything to do with miracles?

I don't fear the Lord. And I don't fear hell, either. I know what hell is like. I've already been there since the day my precious daughter was killed.

Please sign me . . . A Bereaved Mother

Of course, there will be no criticism of God on that day. This desperate woman will see not only the righteousness and goodness of God, but she will also see her own sin and rejection of Him more clearly than ever. How we wish she knew how the Father Himself knows what she has gone through! Why does the sea give up its dead? It represents the place of unburied bodies; the emphasis is on the universal character of judgment - everybody is included.

Cory

 

[ColdSteel]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 05 2004,6:09)]Come on now Thad, why did you have to go and say this?  Haven't I already proved that nowhere in the Bible does it say that nonbelievers will spend an enternity in a lake of fire?  If you can find this in the Bible I will print out all my last posts and eat them and sit next to you in church next Sunday.  This statement is just plain stubborness to admit that some Christian views are incorrect.  An eternity in a flaming lake is as much realistic as Christ being born on Dec. 25!

To be a Christian you must have faith. It is our foundation through Christ. For you must believe in God & that Jesus was Gods son and that he was raised from the grave on the third day and He's coming back to get His own.

After Jesus found me , I didn't find Him, all I had to do was accept His love and His forgiveness and ask Him to forgive me of my sins, and they were many, and I just "knew" that I was saved from my sins. For if you confess your sins to Him He is true and just to forgive you of your sins.
When I accepted Christ as my personal savior my name was written in the Lambs "book of life" and if you're not saved (a nonbeliever) then your name isn't written there.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Is your name written there? If not then there is a lake of fire waiting for you for all eternity.

I believe in predestination. therefore you have been told of things yet to come (prophecy) and it will come true. I believe that your in this thread through Gods will and mercy to give you one more opportunity to see His love and accept it for what it is. Salvation is simple, don't try to cyper it out to make it complicated.
"Come as you are", Percy

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ]Is your name written there? If not then there is a lake of fire waiting for you for all eternity.

I can think of no better words that propelled me into atheism.

When I was much younger, I thought of a father-Christmas image of God. As long as I was a 'good boy', I would get into heaven.

To me, after I grew older, this simply wasn't a good enough excuse, especially when my sister died. I cannot, will not believe in a God who uses threats. And even if I did, so what? According to Islam and Judaism I would go to hell anyway. Read the OT. Read it carefully. See how many incidents of cruelty to His servants the Lord perpetrates. He punishes children to the fourth generation for the sins of a father. We, the imperfect, sinful humans don't even do that. And why do you worship the OT God anyway?

Quote[/b] ] Exodus Chapter 12
12:45
A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

The OT God is Jewish. Are you circimcised? Can you eat the passover?

Quote[/b] ]Why don't you get off your high horse of rationalism, seek God through earnest prayer and Scripture, start learning how God does make sense, and come back to me when you can have a conversation without alluding to the fact that your brain can't wrap around God, so therefore He's not there.

I would never look down upon those who have faith, since I had it once myself. However, I certainly will never allow my actions, morality and thoughts be dictated on wether I will be rewarded after I die. I have too many things to do, A life to live for the people who need me.

Come down off YOUR high horse and stop the veiled threats. I will not try to stop you believing, if you honestly feel you have been called. You have my sincere apologies if I have been presumtuous in the past, or haughty, if that is how I came across. If I ever convert, it will be because I genuinely believe in Christ. But stop using the 'carrot and stick' of heaven, and the fear of hell against us. Fear is not love. And fear of punishment and hope of reward is not an honest existence either.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Whoa buddy, predestination?? It doesn't get much more illogical than that.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]The OT God is Jewish. Are you circimcised? Can you eat the passover?

Actually, being circumcised has been recently medically proven to be safer. And can we eat the passover? hahaha. Thats is pretty funny.

Fast and dirty history of the passover: A feast God setup for the Isrealities to remember, how the Angel of death passed over the houses that had lambs blood on the door frame. What did Jesus say, during his last passover feast, has he passed around the bread and wine. In a nutshell, Eat this bread, for it is my body, Drink this wine for it is my blood and DO THIS IN REMEMBERANCE of, who??? ME (Jesus). Every Christian who partakes of communion is also celebrating the passover feast.

 

[TastyWheat]

1) I did not say that nonbelievers cannot live a life of "merit" - by the world's standards. There were plenty of virtuous people out there (read Plato if you want to learn about virtue).

2) If anybody can say that God makes complete sense, then they're full of crap. But the point is, whereas I've been faced with rationalism, read books on both side, experimented with both sides, I don't know that you've tried that so much. I obviously could be wrong, so I'd like to know more if there's more to it. I am currently reading two books that deal only with the reconciliation of the Old Testament with the New Testament and the authority of the Old Testament, and both are incredible books (I can give you their titles/authors if you want them).

In the end, I do understand that I can't change you, no matter what I say. I speak with passion because I've been down you guys' road, and it hurts me to see this in so many people today.

If it seems like I'm on a high horse, I apologize. Despite the fact that mentioning heaven and hell may seem like a "carrot on a stick" theology, it still definitely is a big part of our faith.

And a question for Jim: you say you have too much to do, a "life to live for the people who need you"; who in this world really needs you? Who in this world really needs any of us?

 

[Jim]

Um, not that I'm getting at you, but given my mother's current state, I'm pretty sure she needs me.

But are you saying you could go your whole life alone? Without any human company? Social isolation has been proven to have detrimental effects on the human psyche. Don't lonely old folks need visits from friends and family? Otherwise, whats the point? Why stay alive if no one really needs you?

And thank you. your response was well thought out.

 

[ColdSteel]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Sep. 06 2004,6:42)]Whoa buddy, predestination??  It doesn't get much more illogical than that.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[Jim]

I thought He was referring to Jeremiah, not to humanity in general?

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]When I was much younger, I thought of a father-Christmas image of God. As long as I was a 'good boy', I would get into heaven.

I see the problem with your view of Christianity right away. You cannot be just a good boy and obtain salvation.

Quote[/b] ]The OT God is Jewish. Are you circimcised? Can you eat the passover?

Yes and yes.

Quote[/b] ] If I ever convert, it will be because I genuinely believe in Christ. But stop using the 'carrot and stick' of heaven, and the fear of hell against us. Fear is not love. And fear of punishment and hope of reward is not an honest existence either.

To a Bible believing Christian, eternal damnation is a reality. To us, its not a threat, but reality. As for you statement fear is not love, I disagree to an extent. I think that children should have a respectful fear of their parents. They should know if they break the rules they are tought, there will be some sort of punishment. Now, don't try to read to much into that. I don't want my kids cowering in fear because I deal out excessivly harsh punishments to them. But I do want them to know what the consequences are and that they will be punished for breaking the rules.

Cory

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (ColdSteel @ Sep. 06 2004,7:45)]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Sep. 06 2004,6:42)]Whoa buddy, predestination??  It doesn't get much more illogical than that.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
 
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Prophetism (is that a word? sure.) and whether you get into heaven or not are two very different things my friend.  Are we not all god's children?  Every one of us can be saved, if only we believe? The belief of predestination is not only a logical fallacy, but one that also contradicts much of other christian doctrine.

Are you predestined?

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (Jim @ Sep. 06 2004,2:39)]But are you saying you could go your whole life alone? Without any human company? Social isolation has been proven to have detrimental effects on the human psyche. Don't lonely old folks need visits from friends and family? Otherwise, whats the point? Why stay alive if no one really needs you?

As far as your mother goes, I won't pretend to know the situation; it's certainly not my prerogative to assume that she doesn't need you to provide emotional support, or even medical care. It is certainly possible for Christians and non-Christians alike to be in similar circumstances. Yet, the meat of what I was saying was addressed further in your response:

Why stay alive if no one really needs you?

Maslow, in his theory of a "hierarchy of needs" (here is a good summary, though I'd recommend picking up a psychology textbook for a better explanation; that's the trouble today; a lot of the best things I reference to people are in books, but the internet has been deemed as much more convenient...), illustrates that we do indeed need other people. In his hierarchy, it starts with the individual (physiology), and the next three steps are related to our interactions with people (safety, love, and esteem)! He places self-actualization last, the highest need but most often not reached. If anything represents more closely the general thought-process of the world, this is it, whether one has thought about it decidedly or not.

But we've all seen how cruel the world can be (even the "Christian" world; I won't attempt to pull any wool over your eyes here), and how, more often than not, the world stresses the rights and needs of the individual. Just looking back at your former post, you stated all the things that you want to accomplish; and I've been in the world, and I know what that can involve. It very rarely involves becoming intimate with a group of people without personal pseudo-utilitarian motives.

And that's the interesting, and amazing, thing about Christianity. There is a large emphasis on both the horizontal and vertical relationship; your self-actualization is achieved by your relationship with God; and your relationship with God may be bolstered moreso by your relationship with other believers ("iron sharpens iron"). Yet even at that level, the other people don't really need you, the individual, to survive.

What's the point of being alive, then, if nobody cares? I asked myself that question my senior year of high school, when I approached the possibility of suicide. There really isn't anybody out there who would cease to function without me, Chuck Meeks, by their side. My parents would be sad, distraught, but they could still function because of the intervention of someone else in practically any other capacity. Your mother, despite the condition, is not actually dependent on you; really she is dependent on the role that you fulfill in her life. These could be construed as broad generalizations, I understand, but please understand what I'm saying.

So the point of living, then, is to fulfill the real role of our existence...to acknowledge God and to worship him. To do what I'm doing now in proclaiming that God did a good work in His Son, and that He actually, really, without a doubt, has done something in my life, and His truth proclaims that He longs to do it for others. Paul says in Romans that instead of worshipping their Creator, people have become satisfied to worship that which was created! Whether that means worshipping avarice, or intellectualism, it still amounts to not worshipping God.

I guess that's about all I can say without going in circles too much. Like I said, nothing I (Chuck Meeks) can say will ever change anybody; but it is my hope that Christ, with the firm desire to rescue those who have not accepted His love, can can use these dumb words I've said.