Evil Atheist Conspiracy

Sorry to jump in so late, but perhaps I could clear up the discussion of evolution a bit.

Evolution is neither the concept of life originating from non-life nor man descending from apes. Evolution is simply the observed process of mutation and natural selection which lead to alterations of organisms over generations.

The concept of life developing from non-life involves the field of chemical evolution, which is entirely different from biological evolution.

And the concept of humans descending from apes? This is its own argument that relies on evolution as a premise. The same is true for the concept of all life descending from a single cell.


Hope that helps
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Evolution is simply the observed process of mutation and natural selection which lead to alterations of organisms over generations.
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If this is evolution, then why is it still preached? Evolution has NEVER been observed. Scientists have seen that certain already present traits will breed true (fruit flies). Scientists have seen that sometimes certain already present traits will become dominant due to environment (peppered moth). Yet they have never observed a fundamental shift in an organism.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The concept of life developing from non-life involves the field of chemical evolution, which is entirely different from biological evolution.
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Why is it different? When you get down to it, it's all chemical. Maybe we're restricted to just the carbon and hydro-carbons. But it's still just chemistry. Of course my question would be how can you accept biological evolution (organisms changing into other organisms, such as the vernacular ape to humans) while saying stellar or chemical evolution has nothing to do with it. Then what started it? Biological evolution is a continuance of stellar evolution, and the supposed random arising of life. The cause of what you are calling biological evolution is stellar evolution. While the scales they deal with may be different, they are both fundamentally the same.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And the concept of humans descending from apes? This is its own argument that relies on evolution as a premise. The same is true for the concept of all life descending from a single cell.
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Of course, and then the premise of evolution relies on the premise that that life could be created using chemical evolution, and chemical evolution relies on the premise that stellar evolution occured, which relies on the premise that the big bang occured...but what started it? If every Effect has a cause, where is the uncaused cause.
 
Trying to ask "well, what caused the big bang?" makes just as much sense as asking what caused God to exist. You have to start somewhere, so what makes it more probable for the beginning to start with God than with the big bang?
 
I would say that a Boston Terrier is significantly different than a wolf, in fact the two are unable to breed with each other. I would say that this is observed speciation.
 
Again, the topics of biological evolution, chemical evolution and the concept of man descending from other organisms are being confused. Mutation and natural selection are fact, as is the ability of organisms to modify through generartions. And this forms the premise for the debate of man descending from apes. Also, neither biological evolution or the man-ape descendence relies on chemical evolution as a premise. Chemical evolution is the concept of biological molecules forming from non-life. The formation of amino acids, nucleic acids, cellular membranes is an entirely different process than that of biological evolution. Further, it's possible that there was another mechanism or cause of biological organisms, in which case there is no effect on the other topics.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Sep. 16 2003,3:42)]Actually, the first step of evolution would be that of an imperfect replicator (DNA). Many believe that God started life, and that it evolved from that starting point.
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You are wrong, according to the Maynard Smith and Szathmary model (which is the widely accepted model of evolutionairy beginings of life) the first step is:

Replicating molecules.

Imperfect DNA is not even introduced until a product of the third step.
 
well how did life get here if not through chemical evolution/stellar evolution? you cant start fighting for something that just picks up with the vast majority of the hard work done, you may try to turn it around and say that is what Christians do, but atleast we stick to our story and do not have to revise it atleast twice a year.....
 
Grand Master--See, as a Creationist, I believe in the uncaused-cause. That singular thing that did not have a cause, but rather just was. God is the uncaused cause. He has no cause, but he caused the creation.


illegal prophet -- Imagine cooking a dinner. You go to the store, you purchase the ingredients. You get them home you prepare them for cooking. Then you cook them. Finally you have your dinner to be eaten.

Now each of those steps, is a unique event. Yet without the initial step of going and getting the food, you can't have made the dinner. This is how evolution works. The first step is stellar, and it goes from there. Saying 'We don't have to prove all the forms of evolution' is akin to saying 'Well we won't worry about telling you how to go shopping, just cook the food' They all have to be done, or else the chain of events (the cause-effect syndrom)falls short
 
So you're saying that we have no need for an explanation of how God IS if evolutionists are allowed to skip over prime steps in the process of evolution, Kidan?
 
Kidan, you missunsderstand evolution entirely, especially since 'what kicked evolution off' is disagreed upon by many, whereas the fact that evolution occurs is not.

One could make the premise that God started life and allowed it to take its natural course, this would leave room for evolution.

If the universe has always existed (not saying it has but giving an example) natural processes would of course still be present, and life would still be able to evolve. You are preaching to the choir.

You claim that everything must have a cause yet follow by contradicting yourself saying that God is uncaused. If you can make this assumption, I can follow the same logic in that of the big bang, in fact I can even say it caused itself.
 
ultima--no. I am saying, whereas in evolution all things must have a cause, and likewise cause an effect (i.e. there was an earlier form that the organism evolved from). I, as a creationist, believe that there is an uncaused cause. I do not have to say 'ok here is what caused God, for I believe that God always was, always is, and always will be.


Medjai---No, I'm saying that evolution claims that everything has a cause. EVolution is one thing changing into another, therefore each form, has a causing form. Yes you can use the same logic for the Big Bang, yet it does not follow scientific procedures.


Saying God created life, and then allowed it to start doing micro-evolution is creationism. Saying God created life, and then allowed it to start macro-evolution, is more or less an illegimate child of creationism and evolution
 
CCCR,

It is amazing, my Wife went to that very church when she lived in Elgin, I married her last yea and she moved up. She was involved in the College group stuff, some of the kids drove up here for our wedding.

If I lived in the chicago land area I would be attending that church too
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,

You "may" know here, but probably not, her name was Laura Ivey (obviously her name is changed now
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)
 
heh small world. It's a great church. I got involved with junior high ministry a year ago. I don't fully recognize the name, maybe the face.
smile.gif
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now each of those steps, is a unique event. Yet without the initial step of going and getting the food, you can't have made the dinner.
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Chemical evolution is not a premise for biological evolution. Chemical evolution deals with the formation of biological molecules, the cell, etc. Whereas biological evolution deals with the observed modification of organisms through generations. The reason that chemical evolution is not a premise for biological evolution is that there are multiple possibilities for the formation of life. And regardless of what caused life(chemical evolution, creation, etc), that life is affected in the ways described by biological evolution.

In other words, it's not a "chain of events".
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Sep. 12 2003,8:14)]I am outraged at the growing number of Atheists in society. I can testify to the moral decay here in America.

Can I get an Amen?
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I SAY WE GATHER UP ALL THESE STUPID ATHEISTS AND SET THEM ON FIRE!!
 
True Christian, come on man, I was drinking soda, I got it all over my keyboard because of you!
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TrueChristianDOTcom @ Sep. 19 2003,12:58)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Sep. 12 2003,8:14)]I am outraged at the growing number of Atheists in society. I can testify to the moral decay here in America.

Can I get an Amen?
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I SAY WE GATHER UP ALL THESE STUPID NIGGER LOVING ATHEISTS AND SET THEM ON FIRE!!
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Simply not our place to judge.

BTW, welcome.
 
"I SAY WE GATHER UP ALL THESE STUPID ATHEISTS AND SET THEM ON FIRE!!"

Please. If you can't make some remotely intelligent humor then just shut up.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TrueChristianDOTcom @ Sep. 19 2003,1:58)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Sep. 12 2003,8:14)]I am outraged at the growing number of Atheists in society. I can testify to the moral decay here in America.

Can I get an Amen?
Click to expand...
I SAY WE GATHER UP ALL THESE STUPID ATHEISTS AND SET THEM ON FIRE!!
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The original quote as I can see it has just been edited was stupid Ni**er loving atheists. Can i ask you somthing? Do you belong to the church or the aurion nation just curious. Also if you are just really screwed up about christianity and you just think you are one. Yeshua (Jesus) said to love everyone and to pray for those who persecute you and your enemies etc. You may try following his commands.
 
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