You're not a true believer unless you can...
- Thread starter Dark Virtue
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Dark Virtue
New Member
My goal is understanding that which I do not, the gaining of knowledge.
As far as the verse goes, please look at what it says, "they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"
The verse does not say, "they will pray over them and by their faith they shall be healed".
See the difference. Even if I were to concede this one point, what about the others? ALL followers are supposed to have these abilities, not just some. Christ didn't say some followers will have these specific gifts and some these gifts.
I would really like to know how you interpret these verses.
I will post them again for you:
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
As far as the verse goes, please look at what it says, "they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"
The verse does not say, "they will pray over them and by their faith they shall be healed".
See the difference. Even if I were to concede this one point, what about the others? ALL followers are supposed to have these abilities, not just some. Christ didn't say some followers will have these specific gifts and some these gifts.
I would really like to know how you interpret these verses.
I will post them again for you:
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Genesis1315
Ladies
DV -
Let's break things down a bit.
First, to be a true believer Mark 16:16 covers it. All you need to do is believe. It will ultimately come to faith. I will be honest though and when I started exploring Christianity, I took a look at the other religions and found that Christianity really offered the best options. As long as I accept Christ as my saviour, I will go to paradise when I die. None of the other religions offered the certainty of that Christianity did. Later, it was through faith and God's conviction in my life did I accept Christ.
Now, turning to spiritual gifts. Please take a look at 1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14.
Let's break things down a bit.
First, to be a true believer Mark 16:16 covers it. All you need to do is believe. It will ultimately come to faith. I will be honest though and when I started exploring Christianity, I took a look at the other religions and found that Christianity really offered the best options. As long as I accept Christ as my saviour, I will go to paradise when I die. None of the other religions offered the certainty of that Christianity did. Later, it was through faith and God's conviction in my life did I accept Christ.
Now, turning to spiritual gifts. Please take a look at 1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Thanks for the info Gen!
Unfortunately, those chapters only create more questions. In 1 Cor 12, Paul finds the need to regulate the gifts that were clearly being excersied by the followers in Corinth. Obviously, at one time, there were followers of Christ who had these gifts in abundance. Where are those followers now? When a Christian gets sick, where do they turn? The healers in church? No, they head to the hospital. What of the other miracles Christ said would follow those who believed in Him? Where are those prophecising in His name? And let's look at this verse:
1 Corinthians 14
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
How many churches do you know of that actually CONDONE speaking in tongues? They are few and far in beween. There are churches that forbid speaking in tongues, which is contrary to this verse. Are they correct in their forbidding? And let's examine something else Paul said, he says there is no point in speaking in tongues if no one understands what you are saying. So where are those that can translate what is being said?
It seems that Paul had to clarify what Christ said. Not everyone has every gift, they are given out as God sees fit. If Paul is saying that not every believer will have a gift, doesn't that contradict what Christ said? And what of this verse:
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Christ didn't see fit to break it down and explain that some people would have gifts and not others. He was very clear in what He said, if you believed in Him you would do these works, greater works than Christ did no less. I have yet to see any reference to any follower of Christ performing greater works than Christ in 2,000 years.
And those that have faith?
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Where are those with such a tiny amount of faith that can perform such huge miracles?
Gen, can I ask you about something you said?
This leads one to believe that you chose Christianity because it had the best fringe benefits, not because it was the CORRECT religion to follow. According to you, you chose Christianity because of what it could give YOU, eternal life, not because it was correct. It was only until later do you say that you decided to accept Christ. That doesn't sound like the best way to choose a religion to me.
Can you explain this a little more?
Unfortunately, those chapters only create more questions. In 1 Cor 12, Paul finds the need to regulate the gifts that were clearly being excersied by the followers in Corinth. Obviously, at one time, there were followers of Christ who had these gifts in abundance. Where are those followers now? When a Christian gets sick, where do they turn? The healers in church? No, they head to the hospital. What of the other miracles Christ said would follow those who believed in Him? Where are those prophecising in His name? And let's look at this verse:
1 Corinthians 14
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
How many churches do you know of that actually CONDONE speaking in tongues? They are few and far in beween. There are churches that forbid speaking in tongues, which is contrary to this verse. Are they correct in their forbidding? And let's examine something else Paul said, he says there is no point in speaking in tongues if no one understands what you are saying. So where are those that can translate what is being said?
It seems that Paul had to clarify what Christ said. Not everyone has every gift, they are given out as God sees fit. If Paul is saying that not every believer will have a gift, doesn't that contradict what Christ said? And what of this verse:
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Christ didn't see fit to break it down and explain that some people would have gifts and not others. He was very clear in what He said, if you believed in Him you would do these works, greater works than Christ did no less. I have yet to see any reference to any follower of Christ performing greater works than Christ in 2,000 years.
And those that have faith?
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Where are those with such a tiny amount of faith that can perform such huge miracles?
Gen, can I ask you about something you said?
[b said:
This leads one to believe that you chose Christianity because it had the best fringe benefits, not because it was the CORRECT religion to follow. According to you, you chose Christianity because of what it could give YOU, eternal life, not because it was correct. It was only until later do you say that you decided to accept Christ. That doesn't sound like the best way to choose a religion to me.
Can you explain this a little more?
Genesis1315
Ladies
I am only going to hit on the last topic right now (due to time constraints) the rest will come later...
No, it is not the best way to choose a religion, but this is what happened to me.
I used to believe in re-incarnation, however the religion I was following at the time still left me feeling empty and, to be honest, a bit scared. So I started looking. I am analytical in nature (and occupation) so I did a cost-benefit analysis of the major religions. That brought me to Christianity. Only a "head" knowledge of it though. I did not have a relationship with God through Christ. In my mind, Christianity was the best option, but my heart wanted the alleged freedom that came from not accepting Christ. Over time (about 2-3 months) my heart started changing. I found that I could have a true freedom through Christ. I also came to believe in my heart that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob really did want was best for me. This led me to a belief that Christ did die for my sins, that I would be cleansed from the things that I did wrong. That no matter what I did, I would not measure up to the standards that God had for my life, but through Christ, it was okay. So I accepted Christ as my saviour. Now, although my salvation is guaranteed, I want to do more for the glory of God and to share more of Him here on Earth. Christianity is based on faith, the works will follow.
No, it is not the best way to choose a religion, but this is what happened to me.
I used to believe in re-incarnation, however the religion I was following at the time still left me feeling empty and, to be honest, a bit scared. So I started looking. I am analytical in nature (and occupation) so I did a cost-benefit analysis of the major religions. That brought me to Christianity. Only a "head" knowledge of it though. I did not have a relationship with God through Christ. In my mind, Christianity was the best option, but my heart wanted the alleged freedom that came from not accepting Christ. Over time (about 2-3 months) my heart started changing. I found that I could have a true freedom through Christ. I also came to believe in my heart that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob really did want was best for me. This led me to a belief that Christ did die for my sins, that I would be cleansed from the things that I did wrong. That no matter what I did, I would not measure up to the standards that God had for my life, but through Christ, it was okay. So I accepted Christ as my saviour. Now, although my salvation is guaranteed, I want to do more for the glory of God and to share more of Him here on Earth. Christianity is based on faith, the works will follow.
Dark Virtue
New Member
I guess it doesn't matter WHY you chose Christianity, just as long as you're a part of it, right?
In other words, the end justifies the means.
Definately not your usual approach
Thanks, as always, for sharing Gen.
In other words, the end justifies the means.
Definately not your usual approach
Thanks, as always, for sharing Gen.
But do you not think that if you chose to believe something on questionable premises, the belief in itself will continue to remain questionable? Becuase the human mind likes to preserve its beliefs. Change is bad. I think that many people chose to believe in a faith based on unsound thinking, and then continue to believe in it because they locate and develope more reasons on top of it. The bedrock analogy works well here, because if your base is unsound, all preceding premises are equally unsound. The faith strategy is inherently flawed in that, assuming there is a 'right answer', it will lead you there only if you are lucky. That's why I prefer evidentialism, becuase reason and evidence can never lie.
Dark Virtue
New Member
I agree Mr. Bill. Byblos said it nicely when he said he WANTED Christianity to be true so bad that he did everything that he could to make it real to himself. Once you set your mind to it, you lost all objectivity and you will believe no matter what. That is the one thing that causes nontheists to shake their head in dismay.
Gen stated that she chose Christianity because of an analytical approach. Now that intrigues me most of all since you can't use reason and evidence to justify Faith.
Gen stated that she chose Christianity because of an analytical approach. Now that intrigues me most of all since you can't use reason and evidence to justify Faith.
Dark Virtue, in an earlier post you said you thought that Paul was contradicting Christ by saying that not everyone has a gift form God,
But Paul did say everyone has a gift, but the gift is different for different people
Also, in response to an earlier post of mine you said that praying to Jesus for the healing of someone and putting your hand on someone to heal them in the name of Jesus are different, how?
But Paul did say everyone has a gift, but the gift is different for different people
Also, in response to an earlier post of mine you said that praying to Jesus for the healing of someone and putting your hand on someone to heal them in the name of Jesus are different, how?
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Would you mind quoting the verse that shows Paul saying everyone has a gift? Thanks.
[b said:
Prayer is a request to God. Prayer isn't a gift. In Mark 16 the verses refer to a gift, "they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." This is NOT the same as prayer. In the KJV, the verse reads, "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Unlike prayer, this is an immediate action similar to the healings administered by Christ.
Hope that clears it up.
Genesis1315
Ladies
[b said:
Yes, she did, oops I did, but remember is was only a head knowledge of it. For example, I understand the concepts of sewing. I know about leaving a seam allowance and all of that, but please don't ask me to sew a hem or pillow or anything
[b said:
Yes, I did, but again, it was through faith (believing in my heart) that I accepted Christ.
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Don't you think that your head approach led to your heart accepting it as truth?
In other words, had your head approach led you to Buddhism, your heart would have accepted that as truth.
Simply put, you believe in Christianity because you wanted it to be real.
Genesis1315
Ladies
Mmmm, not really. I wanted something to be real and I wanted truth. The only reason that Christianity became real to me is because it already was real. I did nothing to change it or make it fit to me. And in the beginning, I did nothing to make me fit into it other than accept Christ
EDIT*** I have studied all of the major religions, including Eastern religions, Native American religions, Earth religions, etc
EDIT*** I have studied all of the major religions, including Eastern religions, Native American religions, Earth religions, etc
Dark Virtue
New Member
My point was, those people that choose a religious belief because they wanted it to be real usually end up believing in it.
Wanting it to be real wasn't an objective introduction to the religion. You went into it wanting it to be real. Look at the other side of the coin. If someone looked into Christianity, all the while thinking it was wrong, chances are they won't believe in it. That goes back to closed-mindedness, it's not objective.
Wanting it to be real wasn't an objective introduction to the religion. You went into it wanting it to be real. Look at the other side of the coin. If someone looked into Christianity, all the while thinking it was wrong, chances are they won't believe in it. That goes back to closed-mindedness, it's not objective.
Genesis1315
Ladies
Yes, true, but I came from a way of thought that taught that Christianity was close minded, not tollerant etc. Pretty much everything that I did not cherish and hold dear. So how does that factor in?
Dark Virtue
New Member
I think the only one that can answer that is you.
What was your analytical process that led your head to believe in a religion that you believed was closed minded, intolerant, etc?
What was your analytical process that led your head to believe in a religion that you believed was closed minded, intolerant, etc?
dark virtue,
after reading your signature, i have thought of a response
Perhaps GOD didn't rejoice at the smell of the goat flesh but rather GOD rejoiced at the fact that people were worshiping him
After all, with the high powered telescopes that men have that can see deep into space, how many other intelligent life forms have we discovered in those galaxies?
NONE
after reading your signature, i have thought of a response
Perhaps GOD didn't rejoice at the smell of the goat flesh but rather GOD rejoiced at the fact that people were worshiping him
After all, with the high powered telescopes that men have that can see deep into space, how many other intelligent life forms have we discovered in those galaxies?
NONE