Why were we created?

[Marcylene]

Oh, I would not send you to Benny, you would enjoy that far too much!

Chalk this one up! I agree with you...when it comes to your reasoning that angels have free will.

I felt that you inferred their boredom by your "twiddling their thumbs" statement. My original post concerning this was because of Eon commenting that worship lost its savor for the angels. I feel that it was the wiles of the enemy and his proud spirit concerning his beauty, that was to blame for the angels fall...and one day soon, their demise.

As for the gems, orchestra, and identifying lucifer as satan:

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekial 28:13

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:12

I feel that weakening the nations also explains that he is one in the same. He was Lucifer in his beauty, satan in his fall and torture of us.

 

[Marcylene]

Woosh! There is tons of angel stuff & there seems to be bbbillions and bbbillions of them. This is my favorite verse concerning their multitude:

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Revelation 5:11

I too, have always heard they were here before creation. Yet, Genesis speaks of God completing the host of the Heavens:

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Genesis 2:1

I am only about a quarter of the way through on looking up all the words that might explain the reasoning of angels and this one seems to best fit thus far:

Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do all his pleasure. Psalm 103: 20 & 21

There are angels that He calls His own:

For the Son of man shall come in glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16: 27

Angels are always in His presence:

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven. Matthew 18:10

And he said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1:51

They seem to always be busy; I think that has been the case since the beginning of their creation. For one, they were created for their power, ministering, and protection for us. But then, I really think all that He does is done with a Romans 8:28 Love that we may not always understand. So far, I don't see any specific reasoning spelled out for their creation. Nevertheless, I am glad they are here, and that we will get to see them in Heaven. It will be an incredibly magnificent sight! Even sometimes now I think I see a glimpse of them...nite angels

 

[Gandhi]

I am not sure of your idea of fun, but in the glory of Heaven?...they were having the time of their lives!

Sry was just wondering, didn't god create heaven and earth during those 7 days, so before heaven they must of been twiggling their thumb

 

[Eon]

Well, they can't have been that thrilled - because one third of them revolted against God, and another third remained neutral. That's not a sign of a happy populace. And I say they had no free will, because they couldn't just choose to stop, could they?

We can choose to worship God or not, and this span of ours is protected for its duration. Only after death are we supposedly judged. The Angels revolted and were broken and cast down.

 

[Jericho_falls]

Quick note

I would like to comment on some things which people seem to misunderstand, especially in relation to giving God glory and words like "slavery" "bordom" and the like.

Notice in my origional post I quoted John Piper as saying "The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever."

Enjoying Him is how we glorify Him. Our relation with God is not a give take. We give him nothing, and He lavishes His grace on us eternally. Saying that it is "boring" or "slavery" to glorify god is like saying it is slavery to thank a man who decided to cover all your finances for the rest of your life, or slavery to love a man who saved you from taking the electric chair, or slavery for a painting to praise the painter. Glorifying God is most un-slavery, un-hardshipped, most fufilling action Man can do.

About the comment about stroking God's ego: His name in greek is Ego Eimi. His name in Hebrew: HaYaHQal HaYaHQaL, I am that I am. God is radically self centered because He is the Great Centre. you can't have a better focus than God, that goes for God too. If He were not self centred we would all be in big trouble, because He would no longer work things to the good pleasure of His counsel but instead the bad pleasure of imperfect counsel. God is self centered, I wouldn't have Him any other way.

About the Angels. It is a pleasure to serve God and the highest form of "joy (as C.S. Lewis would call it) is found in worshipping him. Some arguments have been, "well if one third of the angels rebelled then it must not be fun." I entirely disagree. The satanic rebellion was not instilled by discontent but pride. In Ezekiel it talks about how Lucifer become so conceited with his beauty that he was blinded to God's superior beauty. Because he thought himself more beautiful he considered himself the only one worthy to be on the throne, thus committing idolatry and thus getting kicked out of heaven. Also remember, if heaven was so boring, why did two thirds stay?

 

[Eon]

My dear Jericho, you never find discontent far from pride. Does it really matter which of the two comes first - they're both signs of a disfunctional culture, and a revolution that encompasses a whole third of your population (top to bottom no less) is a serious issue. Any such revolution is enough to bring down any earthly kingdom. It would make a democracy out of China, a facist state out of Amerika and so forth. A third is big.

And you must agree - comments about the size of God's ego ARE true. It's just that you contend the man himself is large enough to wear such an ego. Perhaps it's a cultural thing - but here in the UK we're taught that behaving like that is immoral in itself. That self-deprecation is one of the nicer character virtues.

 

[Jericho_falls]

Most Knowledgible Eon,

There is a verse in the Bible that talks about how it is the tendency of man that, when God has filled him with good things and given him leisure, he becomes prideful and says "there is no God." So pride may come from a comfortable life as well as from discontent.

Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon became prideful because of His great power and wealth:
Daniel 4:28-32| All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. The king spoke, saying, "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?" While the word was still in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from heaven: "King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses." That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.

King Hezekiah became prideful because God healed him (go figure!!):
2 Chronicles 32:24-26 | In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death, and he prayed to the LORD; and He spoke to him and gave him a sign.
But Hezekiah did not repay according to the favor shown him, for his heart was lifted up; therefore wrath was looming over him and over Judah and Jerusalem. Then Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD did not come upon them in the days of Hezekiah.

After describing all the blessings of wealth and wisdom bestowed upon Uzziah King of judah, the Bible goes on to describe His pride before God:
2 Chronicles 26:16-20 | But when he was strong his heart was lifted up, to his destruction, for he transgressed against the LORD his God by entering the temple of the LORD to burn incense on the altar of incense. So Azariah the priest went in after him, and with him were eighty priests of the LORD––valiant men. And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, "It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the LORD, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the LORD God." Then Uzziah became furious; and he had a censer in his hand to burn incense. And while he was angry with the priests, leprosy broke out on his forehead, before the priests in the house of the LORD, beside the incense altar. And Azariah the chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and there, on his forehead, he was leprous; so they thrust him out of that place. Indeed he also hurried to get out, because the LORD had struck him.

So you see, discontent may be near to pride, but not the pride of wealth, beauty and power which was the sin of Lucifer. In the following verse, God speaks of the Devil under the name of the earthly king of Tyre:
Ezekiel 28:12-19 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever."‘"

As you can see, establishment, perfection, beauty, and the like are very fallow grounds for discontent, but not for pride.

 

[Eon]

I never said that the Angels were beaten and kept on bread and water - I simply said that their society MUST have been disfunctional in order for it to have fracted in such a way.

Now, any Earthly Prince might be forgiven for allowing things to creep up on them like this, but one would assume that God would know exactly what was happening. I've never heard it said anywhere that the Angels were granted freewill (hence their punishments for disobeying the will of God) so doesn't such a betrayal speak rather poorly of Gods supposed ominiscience?

Wouldn't you say that the God of the Old Testament is rather more falliable than the God of the New? Sometimes, in fact, they are so different that you'd be forgiven for thinking that they described entirely different deities. Or so it seems from an objective standpoint.

 

[PapaToad]

I believe Angels Had free will, Other wise The Devil wouldn't have rebelled. I do not know why a onimimax being ( your words dv) would need to be glorified. But the fact is he choose to create us. What did the Angels do before man came on the scene, I really do not know.

I think that Angels have a bigger role than just guadianship of man, but I could not say what. As far as serrving man, I believe they (angels) serve the Lord Jesus Christ, for it is written, that every knee will bow to him. So if then we have been granted authority through Christ, we are served as well. Not as Christ, but thru only authority granted us.

Just like if I had a bodyguard, and i ask them to watch over my son, or brother. My bodyguard serves me, I just extended their protect to include my loved ones.

As far as needs being met, we were designed to be masters of the world and hold dominion over it all. I believe God like any father, (but yet being perfect); wanted us to be sinless, to make the choice to be sinless. To be holy and rightous rulers, reflecting and bringing HONOR and Glory to our father!

By Choosing to be Rigthous and Holy we are bring Glory and Honor to God, But we stuggle with the flesh and the world, we need HIS renewed merices everyday, every mintue, to make the choices that will bring Him honor!

 

[PapaToad]

The God of the OT is the same as the NT. He is not fallable, And if he put it in odrder , it was perfect to begin with: Now the angels may have been fallable, as proven with the devil. Man we know is as sinful as ever. This does not speak poorly of God any more than if a child commits a crime, is it his fathers fault if they are both above the age of accountablitity? No, it was the childs choice, to didobey the rules laid down before him/her

 

[Eon]

I disagree. This is about responsibility, isn't it? We say it is unfair to blame a father for his childs conduct once he has no reasonable way to control it and therefore no more responsibility for it.

I should imagine that an Omnimax being has ultimate power. And therefore ultimate responsibility. By any common ethical ruleset the buck stops with God.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I would like to comment on some things which people seem to misunderstand, especially in relation to giving God glory and words like "slavery" "bordom" and the like.

Notice in my origional post I quoted John Piper as saying "The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever."

My question has been, WHY did God find it necessary to create inferior beings to GLORIFY Him for eternity? Regardless, I can't believe this assertion anyway. If God wants Man to enjoy Him that much, He would not have distanced Himself from His creation and doomed half of them to eternal torment in Hell.

Enjoying Him is how we glorify Him.

Eh? Where do you get this from? Is this your opinion or is this in the Bible? How do you glorify or enjoy someone that you don't even know?

Our relation with God is not a give take. We give him nothing, and He lavishes His grace on us eternally. Saying that it is "boring" or "slavery" to glorify god is like saying it is slavery to thank a man who decided to cover all your finances for the rest of your life, or slavery to love a man who saved you from taking the electric chair, or slavery for a painting to praise the painter. Glorifying God is most un-slavery, un-hardshipped, most fufilling action Man can do.

Sorry, but this isn't a very good analogy. God is more like a parent who left you, the child to bring yourself up and take care of yourself. A parent that left a questionable book on a shelf full of questionable books that says OBEY ME OR DIE.

About the comment about stroking God's ego: His name in greek is Ego Eimi. His name in Hebrew: HaYaHQal HaYaHQaL, I am that I am. God is radically self centered because He is the Great Centre. you can't have a better focus than God, that goes for God too. If He were not self centred we would all be in big trouble, because He would no longer work things to the good pleasure of His counsel but instead the bad pleasure of imperfect counsel. God is self centered, I wouldn't have Him any other way.

Note that being "self-centered" isn't necessarily a good trait to have in man, much less in a being that is supposed to be perfect.

About the Angels. It is a pleasure to serve God and the highest form of "joy (as C.S. Lewis would call it) is found in worshipping him.

Please explain how the highest form of joy is in servitude. Does this go for all things or only for God?

Some arguments have been, "well if one third of the angels rebelled then it must not be fun." I entirely disagree. The satanic rebellion was not instilled by discontent but pride. In Ezekiel it talks about how Lucifer become so conceited with his beauty that he was blinded to God's superior beauty. Because he thought himself more beautiful he considered himself the only one worthy to be on the throne, thus committing idolatry and thus getting kicked out of heaven. Also remember, if heaven was so boring, why did two thirds stay?

First of all, Lucifer was the MORTAL king of Babylon, not an archangel.

Secondly, Pride? Beauty? Do you actually believe that?

 

[Jericho_falls]

My question has been, WHY did God find it necessary to create inferior beings to GLORIFY Him for eternity? Regardless, I can't believe this assertion anyway. If God wants Man to enjoy Him that much, He would not have distanced Himself from His creation and doomed half of them to eternal torment in Hell.

First, God never distanced from man, man distanced from God. God is holy and perfect and cannot have sin in His presence. Can darkness and light mix? So when man fell into sin, God had no alternative but to cast them out, just like light has no alternative but to push dark out.
Second, He doomed all of man to hell. However he also sent his precious Son to take the punishment that man deserved and then to offer man the chance to come back to a perfect relationship with Him and to fulfill their calling to enjoy God and glorify Him.
Third, it is a pleasure to enjoy God. I don't know how anyone can translate "joy" or "pleasure" as servitute. When you serve God it ain't like serving man, its wonderfull! When God created "inferior" beings to glorify Him he was doing them a darn nice favour. Besides, as Romans 9:20-21 says: "But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?"

Eh? Where do you get this from? Is this your opinion or is this in the Bible? How do you glorify or enjoy someone that you don't even know?

You may not know God, but He knows you and wants you to know Him. I know God, I talk to Him daily and He talks to me and He guides me and sustains me. I enjoy that relationship, I tell others about it and it shows how great God is. That glorifies Him by enjoying Him. You glorify a good dinner by saying "mmmm... delicious," that's called enjoying it. You glorify music by enjoying it and praising it for it's beauty. Enjoying God is not baseless recitation, His beauty and the enjoyment He gives are worthy of praise millions of times more than a good dinner is worthy of praise for the enjoyment it gives.

Psalm 16:11 "You will show me the path of life, in your presence is fullness of joy, at your right hand are pleasures forevermore."

Sorry, but this isn't a very good analogy. God is more like a parent who left you, the child to bring yourself up and take care of yourself. A parent that left a questionable book on a shelf full of questionable books that says OBEY ME OR DIE.

You gotta serve somebody. You can obey God, or the devil, choose your pick. God is not like a parent who left you, you are like a kid who rebelled against his parents. Read Ezekiel 16, it talks about God taking Israel (which also applies to the saved) and helping her while she struggled in blood, abandonned by her parent the devil, and raised her and even when she went off galavanting with young men He brought her back in. Obeying God is not slavery, its freedom from sin. Death are the wages of sin. He doesn't say "obey me or die," He is saying "you are dying, obey me and you will live."

Note that being "self-centered" isn't necessarily a good trait to have in man, much less in a being that is supposed to be perfect.

So you make bowl out of clay and then focus all your love and attention perfectly on that bowl and you pamper it and glorify it instead of using it. People would think you were nuts. God is worth as much as a potter if we are worth as much as clay. When He is self centered, it's because it's the righteous thing to be. God is God-centered, not man-centered, and He commands us to be God-centered. If it's still bugging you, you might say Christ is Spirit-centred, Spirit is God-centered, and God is Christ-centered, but in the end it works out to God being God centered.

Please explain how the highest form of joy is in servitude. Does this go for all things or only for God?

Mr 9:35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."

God is first, he serves us. Serving God is an expression we use for fulfilling the good works He has prepared for us. Servitude denotes slavery, however serving God is freedom.

First of all, Lucifer was the MORTAL king of Babylon, not an archangel.

Secondly, Pride? Beauty? Do you actually believe that?

No he wasn't, yes I do.

 

[Dark Virtue]

First, God never distanced from man, man distanced from God. God is holy and perfect and cannot have sin in His presence. Can darkness and light mix? So when man fell into sin, God had no alternative but to cast them out, just like light has no alternative but to push dark out.

Remember those two littlel things called Omniscience and Omnipotence? God KNEW that man would sin, yet He did nothing to stop them, so don't lay this at the foot of Man. God let the serpent in the Garden, God let the serpent sway the woman, thus dooming Man. Where was god in all this? Who made the serpent? Come on now, God set up Man to fall.

Second, He doomed all of man to hell. However he also sent his precious Son to take the punishment that man deserved and then to offer man the chance to come back to a perfect relationship with Him and to fulfill their calling to enjoy God and glorify Him.

Why doom mankind to hell in the firstplace? It makes no sense. If God and Christ are one, then God killed himself to satiate himself from his own punishment. How does that make sense?

Third, it is a pleasure to enjoy God. I don't know how anyone can translate "joy" or "pleasure" as servitute. When you serve God it ain't like serving man, its wonderfull! When God created "inferior" beings to glorify Him he was doing them a darn nice favour. Besides, as Romans 9:20-21 says: "But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?"

Enjoy God? You quoted CS Lewis who said the ultimate joy was in SERVITUDE to God, remember? I have kids, but I don't expect them to GLORIFY me. Why would an omnimax being feel the NEED to be glorified? I've never liked the potter analogy in Romans. Is the pottery sentient? Does the potter expect the vessel to glorify him?

You may not know God, but He knows you and wants you to know Him.

If this were truly the case, why the cosmic game of hide and seek?

I know God, I talk to Him daily and He talks to me and He guides me and sustains me.

How does God TALK to you? Note that the definition of TALK is " to express or exchange ideas by means of spoken words". Perhaps you mean that God communicates with you. If so, how? How does He guide you? How does He sustain you?

I enjoy that relationship, I tell others about it and it shows how great God is.

What exactly is this relationship? Servant to master? Something else?

That glorifies Him by enjoying Him.

Once again, I ask, why does an omnimax being require glorification? Shouldn't his mere existence be glory enough?

You glorify a good dinner by saying "mmmm... delicious," that's called enjoying it. You glorify music by enjoying it and praising it for it's beauty.

No sir, I do not. I do not praise the food, I praise the cook. I do not praise the music, I praise the musician. Note the difference in praise and glorify.

Enjoying God is not baseless recitation, His beauty and the enjoyment He gives are worthy of praise millions of times more than a good dinner is worthy of praise for the enjoyment it gives.

What about the pain and misery he also brings? Is that worthy of praise?

You gotta serve somebody.

Says who? That reminded me of this: http://www.heresyhouse.com/catalog-hh/ts04_sm.jpg

You can obey God, or the devil, choose your pick.

What if I choose neither?

God is not like a parent who left you, you are like a kid who rebelled against his parents. Read Ezekiel 16, it talks about God taking Israel (which also applies to the saved) and helping her while she struggled in blood, abandonned by her parent the devil, and raised her and even when she went off galavanting with young men He brought her back in. Obeying God is not slavery, its freedom from sin. Death are the wages of sin. He doesn't say "obey me or die," He is saying "you are dying, obey me and you will live."

Sorry, but I don't agree. Where is God? I don't see Him. Have I looked? Yes I have. I have found nothing. I am an atheist not because I denounce the existence of God, but because I see no reason believe in the existence of ANY God. A GOOD parent would be around to take care of their child, regardless of the circumstances. A GOOD parent not only tells the child not to touch the flame, but will stop him no matter how many times he's said to be careful. Why? LOVE. If God is omnimax, then He should have PERFECT LOVE. Turn on your TV and look at the commercials for starving children in Africa. THAT IS NOT PERFECT LOVE. They didn't do one single thing to deserve that. What sin did babies commit to have their bellies swollen while they cry in the arms of their mother? Evil is NOT necessary.

So you make bowl out of clay and then focus all your love and attention perfectly on that bowl and you pamper it and glorify it instead of using it. People would think you were nuts. God is worth as much as a potter if we are worth as much as clay. When He is self centered, it's because it's the righteous thing to be. God is God-centered, not man-centered, and He commands us to be God-centered. If it's still bugging you, you might say Christ is Spirit-centred, Spirit is God-centered, and God is Christ-centered, but in the end it works out to God being God centered.

Again, I must stress that the pottery in question is NOT sentient, that analogy DOES NOT WORK. But let's look at what you said anyway. You say the potter pampers and glorifies the bowl. God does not pamper or glorify Man, God requires Man to glorify HIM. In other words, you're saying that the potter creates a bowl and then stares at it befuddled because the stupid clay pot won't praise him for being skillful enough to shape some mud. How does that make sense?

God is first, he serves us. Serving God is an expression we use for fulfilling the good works He has prepared for us. Servitude denotes slavery, however serving God is freedom.

How does God SERVE Man? Wasn't Man created to SERVE (glorify) God?

How is serving God freedom?


BTW, thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions, I appreciate it

As far as Lucifer=Satan, I don't want to get off on a tangent, but check these links out:

http://www.bbie.org/english/Study06GodandEvil/D19Lucifer.html

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/isaiah1412.htm

http://www.bibleweb.org/TruthAbout/TA12.htm

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/2314.htm

http://www.cresourcei.org/lucifer.html

Note that I could have listed many different sources, but I chose to list CHRISTIAN sources, hoping you will give them a little more validity. I challenge you to read through them OBJECTIVELY. This pretty much sums it up:

So, the Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the New Testament passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah.

 

[Eon]

The pottery metaphor is especially suspect in that a Potter seldom throws a pot for the benefit of the pot and always for the benefit of the potter.

And pots that aren't fit for holding soup get broken.

 

[Genesis1315]

fSorry, but I don't agree. Where is God? I don't see Him. Have I looked? Yes I have. I have found nothing. I am an atheist not because I denounce the existence of God, but because I see no reason believe in the existence of ANY God. A GOOD parent would be around to take care of their child, regardless of the circumstances. A GOOD parent not only tells the child not to touch the flame, but will stop him no matter how many times he's said to be careful. Why? LOVE.

Just because you do not see the Father does not mean that He is not there. Nor does it mean that He does not care for you. DV - I know we have been down this road many times I am only going to address the first part for now. A child who is adopted may never know his biological parent. He may not be able to see that they exist or ever know anything about them. That does not negate the fact that they are real. It also does not mean that the biological parent did not love or care for their child by giving him up for adoption.

And while a parent will tell his child to not touch the flame or do anything else that would cause bodily harm, sometimes children will act as they want to and disregard what a parent says. In the end it will result in getting burned. Sometimes, it does not matter how much the parent loves the child and tries to keep him safe.

Gen

<disclaimer> I will work to keep a child safe at all costs. I do not condone abuse or neglect of a child or any one else.

 

[Eon]

This, of course, because human parents are falliable, no? Surely God in his infinite Wisdom and Mercy could ensure that the Child was never burned, or that the burn did not hurt if it happened?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Eon beat me to it.

You are comparing an omnimax deity, shall we say an omnimax parent, to a fallible, human parent.

A human parent can't constantly watch over their children, but an omniscient, omnipresent one can. Throw in perfect love and what have you got? Not where we are now.

You said, "Just because you do not see the Father does not mean that He is not there. " I don't see leprechauns, yeti or Invisible Pink Unicorns, does that mean they're really there? Of course not. Not finding God is different because of what the Bible says:

But they who seek the Lord shall not be in want of any good thing. --Psalm 34:10

Ask, and it shall be given to you; Seek, and you shall find; Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. --Matthew 7:7

Not everyone who asks, recieves.

Not everyone who seeks, finds.

Not everyone who knocks, has doors opens.

That's a simple fact of life.

 

[Jericho_falls]

I will attempt to let scripture answer itself for these questions:

Why doom mankind to hell in the firstplace? It makes no sense. If God and Christ are one, then God killed himself to satiate himself from his own punishment. How does that make sense?

Romans 6:23a| For the wages of sin is death...

It is an eternal law that sin must be punished. Our earthly laws require punishment for crime and they are a reflection of the devine moral law.

Remember those two little things called Omniscience and Omnipotence? God KNEW that man would sin, yet He did nothing to stop them, so don't lay this at the foot of Man. God let the serpent in the Garden, God let the serpent sway the woman, thus dooming Man. Where was god in all this? Who made the serpent? Come on now, God set up Man to fall.

Romans 9:18-20 | Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Not everyone who asks, recieves.
Not everyone who seeks, finds.
Not everyone who knocks, has doors opens.
That's a simple fact of life.

Eph 1:3-5 | Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Mt 22:14 | For many are called, but few are chosen.
Jer 29:12 | And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Those who are chosen will produce the fruit of seeking with all their hearts because God has equipped them, though all are called to do this and most do not seek with all their hearts until long into their life.

If this were truly the case, why the cosmic game of hide and seek?

Where is God? I don't see Him. Have I looked? Yes I have.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.

He's there... He shows himself in creation and the Word and even in your conscience. The question isn't why haven't you found God though you're looking. The question is do you accept who He is and His authority, or was that not what you were looking for in the first place?

How does God TALK to you? Note that the definition of TALK is " to express or exchange ideas by means of spoken words". Perhaps you mean that God communicates with you. If so, how? How does He guide you? How does He sustain you?

2 Tim 3:16-17 | All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Communicates
Psalm 119:105 | Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Guides
Psalm 119:116 | Uphold me according to Your word, that I may live; And do not let me be ashamed of my hope. Sustains

I know the mind of God through His spoken word written down in the Bible. It contains everything I need to know from Him and thus it is all He needs to say to me. I wish my mom had a book like that, I'd never get in trouble.


Thats all Im going to answer for now.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I will attempt to let scripture answer itself for these questions:

Romans 6:23a| For the wages of sin is death...

It is an eternal law that sin must be punished. Our earthly laws require punishment for crime and they are a reflection of the devine moral law.

Eternal Law? I think not. It's a law set forth by God, no? God created man and doomed him in the same stroke. Remember that little thing called omniscience? God knew before He ever created man that man would fall.

Romans 9:18-20 | Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Eph 1:3-5 | Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Mt 22:14 | For many are called, but few are chosen.
Jer 29:12 | And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Those who are chosen will produce the fruit of seeking with all their hearts because God has equipped them, though all are called to do this and most do not seek with all their hearts until long into their life.

Ah yes, Predestination. What are your thoughts on Predestination since you brought it up? Has God preordained, before the creation of Man, who will go to hell and who will go to heaven? IF that's the case, why even bother trying?

If you search for God, WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART, will you find Him? Do you blame the seeker when they can't find God, saying they didn't search with their whole heart? Sorry buddy, but many, MANY people have searched for God, WITH THEIR WHOLE HEART and found nothing. How do I know? I am one of them.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.

He's there... He shows himself in creation and the Word and even in your conscience. The question isn't why haven't you found God though you're looking. The question is do you accept who He is and His authority, or was that not what you were looking for in the first place?

Why not have unequivocable proof? It was good enough for the people of the Old Testament, why not now?

How can one accept God and His authority BEFORE finding Him? You're putting the cart before the horse here.

2 Tim 3:16-17 | All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Communicates
Psalm 119:105 | Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Guides
Psalm 119:116 | Uphold me according to Your word, that I may live; And do not let me be ashamed of my hope. Sustains

I know the mind of God through His spoken word written down in the Bible. It contains everything I need to know from Him and thus it is all He needs to say to me. I wish my mom had a book like that, I'd never get in trouble.

Thats all Im going to answer for now.

So when you say that God speaks to you, He really DOESN'T speak to you. It's just what you find in the Bible? Why even say He SPEAKS to you, that's a bit deceitful isn't it?