Why is it Ok To Kill?

Shyfroggy said:
Grand Theft auto and playing CS on a Christian server are very different - really no comparrison there.
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Would you mind explaining why there isn't a comparison?

As far as 'virtual killing going against what the Bible teaches" ... while there is much scriptual reference for killing in real life I have yet to find a Bible that specifically mentions "virtual killing"...
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There's no scriptural reference against watching porn either, but you use the bible to show porn isn't acceptable don't you?

I don't think you need a verse specifically describing virtual killing as wrong, and I think you know that.

With regards to Matt 5:21 and 5:27....I really see no comparison - again I'll remind you I have not 'murdered' anybody.....
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I suggest rereading those verses because they are pertinent to this discussion. Somehow I don't think you want to be schooled on these verses by an atheist :)

And umm here's another idea - some people don't just play counterstrike to kill people, for some it becomes fellowship among people....there have been many times when playing counterstrike that we might start a discussion regarding The Almighty....
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...while you slaughter the opposing team. CS isn't a chat room.

Playing CS is just that - playing. I don't see anybody getting killed in real life, and I see no murders being committed by those people that I play with.
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Again, I suggest rereading the verses I posted.

I'll give you a hint though: can you sin with a thought?
 
Tek7 said:
I'm asking a question. There is certainly more than one question to ask in addressing this topic and all questions should be considered. I am not meaning to tackle this argument all at once, but rather to address one issue at a time. I feel that exploring the intent of the player is a proper starting point for discussion.

That being said, I reiterate my previous question: If you play video and computer games without getting angry, is it a sinful pasttime?
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The simple answer is YES. If a murderer kills without anger, but with ENJOYMENT, does that make it right?

Ex 20:13 says, "Thou shalt not kill". The word here is ratsach, meaning:
1) to murder, slay, kill
a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1) premeditated
2) accidental
3) as avenger
4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
b) (Niphal) to be slain
c) (Piel)
1) to murder, assassinate
2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
d) (Pual) to be killed

Where does it say anything about anger?

Murder is defined as, "to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice". Again, anger doesn't seem to play a part here, so I'm not sure why you are trying to equate murder with anger.

Not having much experience with paintball (and not wanting to stray too far off-topic), I recommend those concerned with whether or not paintball is inherently sinful read the Christian Paintball Player's Association FAQ, specifically answer #1. Even those not interested in paintball may find the FAQ an intriguing read as many points in answer #1 relate to our current discussion.
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I'll have to go into this later after I read the article.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Would you mind explaining why there isn't a comparison?

Well lets see, where should I begin...I play CS on a Christian Counterstrike server, much talk of the Lord goes on their...have yet to hear anybody say there is reference to the Lord while playing Grand Theft Auto.

There's no scriptural reference against watching porn either, but you use the bible to show porn isn't acceptable don't you?

Please be careful with your use of 'you'...I have not said that, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth.

I don't think you need a verse specifically describing virtual killing as wrong, and I think you know that.

Well, you're right, I don't 'need a verse, because I know I am not killing anybody.

I suggest rereading those verses because they are pertinent to this discussion. Somehow I don't think you want to be schooled on these verses by an atheist :)

Affirmative, Roger that, I can re-read.

...while you slaughter the opposing team. CS isn't a chat room.

Again, I'll ask you to consider how you are saying things. I never said CS was a chat room, I was simply mentioning that when playing on a Christian Server, much talk of the Lord goes on their. For some people it is a lot more than the score, and on the server I play on, we are more of a family.


Again, I suggest rereading the verses I posted.

Roger that, I can heed ones suggestion...


I'll give you a hint though: can you sin with a thought?
Please explain further as that is left up to a lot of interpretation.
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Please explain further as that is left up to a lot of interpretation.
 
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balrogdude27 said:
I have to agree in a way. I think it is OK for some people, then some people it is bad for them to play it. Like as i said in an earlier post, Alot like meat sacrificed to idols.
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Further, people use inappropriate arguments, like I use poor spelling... :)

Not to pick on one in particular, but just above your response is someone saying that they would rather play on a christian server... I dont think there is Any Rather about it.

Call it what it is. It is violence. It is intentional killing. It is not real killing anymore than looking at a picture of a woman on a mag and thinking inappropriate thoughts.

There is No justification. I find it hard to believe that their is a pastor that thinks it is? I have not looked into that but that is really sad.

We now have Pastors that are: Gay, Divorced, or Female. Now I have to add to that those that say yes to violent games?

I try to be an excellent Christian and I fail misserable every hour of the day. But I dont excuse my bad behavior.

Peace
 
Shyfroggy said:
here is something to remember: I've never killed anybody in real life therefore I can't say I've ever 'taken somebody down with a headshot.' A game is a game. Nothing less, but can definately be something more if one so chooses to make it more. It is what you put into it.
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I am sorry, but I See this as incorrect. A game is just a game until Satan makes it more. Man in the Flesh can not make things a sin or not a sin. We dont have that power. If we do, it would be only to make Every Thing a Sin. That is the thing.

The Flesh can not take the sin out of Gambling.

Peace
 
Tek7 said:
I'm asking a question. There is certainly more than one question to ask in addressing this topic and all questions should be considered. I am not meaning to tackle this argument all at once, but rather to address one issue at a time. I feel that exploring the intent of the player is a proper starting point for discussion.

That being said, I reiterate my previous question: If you play video and computer games without getting angry, is it a sinful pasttime?

Not having much experience with paintball (and not wanting to stray too far off-topic), I recommend those concerned with whether or not paintball is inherently sinful read the Christian Paintball Player's Association FAQ, specifically answer #1. Even those not interested in paintball may find the FAQ an intriguing read as many points in answer #1 relate to our current discussion.
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The question is NOT what we think. The question is what does the Scritpure say.

If one wants to know if it is OK to do something here are some easy questions and I think most will know the scriptures answers. Some are amed at gaming, others more generic.

-Can one have more than One Master?
-Can one sit and do the same thing for hours on end? Wages, upkeep, gaming?
-How much time do you invest in your children, spouse, the Word, prayer, song, games, cars, etc.
-Can one stop what one is doing and be interupted time after time after time with out getting irritated by little siblings, sons, daughters, spouses?
-Can you stop flying the plane on a 5 sec maiden flight or 10 min killing spree racking up the points. Can you just stop to answer your sons math question?
-Can one actually bring someone to God via Voip, TS, team orriented online gaming?
-Did Jesus seak out the Sinners or did He go into their brothels, thier dens of sin and share with them while they were sinning?
-Does God and Satan open up shop together both hoping to woo customers from each other?
-How much did you spend on games and pc's?
-How much did you spend on bible, tracts, missonaries, Children, missions, etc.?
-Is their really no similarity in looking at a woman lustfully and playing violent games?
-The Sims are off limits because of sexual topics but no FPS?

I am sure the list can go on.

I am no saint. I dont have good answers for many of these. And that is why I can tell that I am wasting my time and partaking in sin by playing. It is not just the killing or violence, it is everything.

PEace
 
This is a PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

1. Please be sure to keep the conversation civil.
2. Don't triple post. =)

<radiostatic>
 
Call it what it is. It is violence. It is intentional killing. It is not real killing anymore than looking at a picture of a woman on a mag and thinking inappropriate thoughts.

I will accept that as your opinion. But I would really appreciate it if somebody could explain why the comparison keeps going back to 'looking at women in magazines' I am having great difficulty seeing whatever point is trying to be made there and yet it has been brought up multiple times.

I am sorry, but I See this as incorrect. A game is just a game until Satan makes it more.

Again, I appreciate your opinion, but I would also appreciate it if you could post your opinion without telling me my beliefs/ideas are 'incorrect'...And I agree - A game is just a game until Satan makes it more - thus would explain why I choose to play on a Christian server where we are more of a family and we actually talk about the Lord. I know that some have said 'is that before or after you slay them' and again I'm baffled as to where that is coming from....search a little deeper, look at it from another perspective, try to see the positive gain that comes from playing with people who are like family to you. When that is the case, CS becomes a whole lot more than CS, and that is the main thing I'm asking you to consider.
 
Shy, the comparison keeps being made because, as I showed you in those verses I cited, you don't have to PHYSCIALLY do something in order to sin.

You can sin with a thought. Hate was equated to murder, lust was just as bad as the physical sin.

Deductive reasoning leads one to believe that virtual killing is just as bad as virtual killing.

Maybe I should specify that it's ok for Christians to play violent video games, but TRUE Christians would never do so.
 
I get your point, you don't have to physically do something in order to sin, so you're telling me that because I play Counter Strike I am a sinner?

I understand that you can sin with a thought....and if you are trying to compare this to counterstrike, think about this - I don't think about killing people when I play CS...

Virtual Killing...if we break that down to the defintions....then playing CS and Virtually Killing people...is saying that I am depriving life from hypothetical particles whose existence is inferred from indirect evidence...that's just something to be considered.

I find it interesting that people post in these forums, sharing there ideas/beliefs/thoughts....I would think they do so in a way to show us a different perspective, however, I think too many people are too closed minded.

Dark Virtue, how quick you are to assume who is a "TRUE Christian" and who isn't....you don't know a thing about me...all you know are my ideas/thoughts/beliefs regarding Counter Strike....don't be so quick to assume next time...
 
Shyfroggy said:
I get your point, you don't have to physically do something in order to sin, so you're telling me that because I play Counter Strike I am a sinner?
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According to the verses I have read, yes. If you can show biblical verses to the contrary, I would be more than willing to look at them.

I understand that you can sin with a thought....and if you are trying to compare this to counterstrike, think about this - I don't think about killing people when I play CS...
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Ok...what DO you think about? You don't think about what weapons to use? Don't you choose weapons according to the damage they do? Don't you think about putting your enemy's head in your crosshairs?

Or are you arguing that you have desensitized yourself to the killing and don't even think about it anymore?

Virtual Killing...if we break that down to the defintions....then playing CS and Virtually Killing people...is saying that I am depriving life from hypothetical particles whose existence is inferred from indirect evidence...that's just something to be considered.
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It's a visual representation of life. The SOLE purpose of the game is to kill the opposing side. You can argue that there are teamwork issues, etc, but I'd like to see you play a game WITHOUT trying to get a kill. If God equates hate with killing, how do you think he'd equate virtual killing to the real thing? It's not WHAT you are killing, in this case "hypothetical particles", it's the simple fact that you are KILLING. Premeditated I might add. You kill to gain money to get weapons to kill some more.

I find it interesting that people post in these forums, sharing there ideas/beliefs/thoughts....I would think they do so in a way to show us a different perspective, however, I think too many people are too closed minded.
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In this instance, I am trying to understand why your beliefs seem to deviate from what the Bible, the foundation for your beliefs, teaches.

Dark Virtue, how quick you are to assume who is a "TRUE Christian" and who isn't....you don't know a thing about me...all you know are my ideas/thoughts/beliefs regarding Counter Strike....don't be so quick to assume next time...
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It's called deductive reasoning, based off of the ideas/thoughts/beliefs that I know. As I said, I'm trying to understand how you can call yourself a Christian, yet participate in unChristianlike activities.

WWJD? Can you see him sitting in on a game of CS?

EDIT: I wanted to ask...if you agree that you can sin mentally, why do you believe there is a difference between killing in video games and pornography?

EDIT again: Would you also mind explaining how you justify playing games like CS in light of the follwing verses: "1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever."
 
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I think this thread should be featured in every forum in CGA. This is an issue that's extremely important, especially considering what the "C" and "G" stand for in CGA.

Plus, I can't wait to see what happens when the argument moves beyond Counter Strike and into other genres, like when the question is asked whether or not Christians should play a game that gives you control of an iconic plumber who steps on the heads of turtles and then kicks them in deep chasms, from which (assumedly, anyway), there is no escape.
 
I'm going to get on my soap box on this issue if I may:

I've thought about this issue myself quite a bit. I guess the thing in the Bible that really set my view in it is when Jesus basically said the two commandments are have no God before me and love your neighbor (sorry I don't have chapter-verse. I've never been good at memorizing those). If you think about it, these two basically sum up the 10 Commandments given to Moses. Now when I'm playing CS, Halo, or Battlefield 2, do I violate either one of these?
Now I don't worship at the feet of video games. They hardly define my life like my faith does. I enjoy them, but they're not a staple in my existance. So I definately don't violate the first of these commandments.
What about the second? Am I being very neighborly? I'm not killing my neighbor literally. I play my brother and brother-in-law in Halo quite often. At the end of it all, we laugh and enjoy it. I've taken down both of them a number of times (and vice versa) in the game. But there is no anger, no hate, only brotherly love. I used to play on the ToJ CS server and I play a bunch of fellow ToJ members in BF2. Once again, I play them and enjoy the Christian fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Now it's true that the thought of committing a sin is sinful. However, what happens in these games isn't killing in my book. I'm reminded of the film "Short Circuit." The main character is a robot who gains artificial intelligence. As he's discovering the world around him, he accidently kills a grasshopper. At first, he doesn't realize what he's done. He tells another character to "reassemble" the grasshopper. He's then informed that dead is dead. It is forever. It is at this point that the robot realizes how serious death is.
With a video game, this isn't the case. In a matter of seconds after losing one's health, they're back in action as if nothing happened. Plus there's no actual harm to the person I'm playing. I kill my brother in Halo, the only thing that might actually be hurt is his ego. At the end of the session, no one's dead or hurt. And that's the way it should be. I don't think about actually killing anyone either. I just think about out thinking them and out playing them. I think the best way to explain this is a lot of times when playing a game, I'll run out and do something that will most likely result in my death in the game. I'll do this in an attempt to get lucky or protect a flag carrier. If I was actually going to die, I wouldn't run out there and try such things. It's becase I don't die when I do this. I just get knocked back the a spawn point after a few seconds or come back in the next round.
I'd also like to comment on Dark Virtue's comments. "Would you also mind explaining how you justify playing games like CS in light of the follwing verses: '1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.'" Well then I ask what is worldly? I would say what this passage is saying is we need to keep God in our hearts and not to love of the world. If I'm enjoying some Christian fellowship and/or shining God's light in a game, then I would say I'm not loving the world. The passage says "the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does" I read this and think of some people on my college campus that will stand proud and say something like "I drank a whole fifth of vodka last night," like it's an amazing accomplishment. Our world is full of stuff like this. When I keep a Christian demeanor when playing (keep my language clean, practice good sportsmanship, etc.) I am not giving in to the "the cravings of sinful man."
"I wanted to ask...if you agree that you can sin mentally, why do you believe there is a difference between killing in video games and pornography?" Once again, it's the thought that one is having. I don't have any real experience and I don't want to get into any details, but I imagine when watching porn, certain sinful thoughts can come to mind and I'd guess most likely would. However, when I'm playing CS, I'm not actually thinking about killing anyone. To me, it's no different than paintball. It's just that the graphical representation in a game is them falling to the ground. But like I explained earlier, they're not dead.
I guess that's it for now. I'm sure you're all sick of reading my thoughts. So I'll get off that soap box. For now.
 
Hey Dan, thanks for your repsonse.

I often hear Christians state that if you are glorifying God or have a Christian demeanor while playing online, then how could you be doing anything wrong.

Would you mind explaining how you have a Christian demeanor when you are playing games whose sole purpose is to kill other players? How, exactly, does one glorify God while making a head shot?

Would you also explain why you have a sig that shows yours BF2 score? No boasting there huh? :)

Several people so far have said that they aren't thinking about killing anyone. I disagree, and if you think about it, you will too. Video games are immersive, while you play, you become your character. Take BF2 for instance, you hold a gun in the game and are armed with various weapons. What exactly do you do to the enemy? Shoot him, right? Do you aim to wound or to kill? If you have a chance to take a head shot, don't you take it? If you don't think you're killing, what ARE you thinking? Look at your sig again, it keeps track of your what? KILLS. When you look down those iron sights, you are thinking of one thing: killing your opponent. Can you honestly sit there and tell us differently?

Now, I understand that you may not cognizantly think that. But the reason why is that you have become desensitized to THINKING about killing. Now, you just DO it.

Several now have equated virtual killing to paintball. You know, there ARE paintball video games. Why not just play those? Why play a game that simulates killing, murder, death?
 
According to the verses I have read, yes. If you can show biblical verses to the contrary, I would be more than willing to look at them.
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hey, looks like DV just likes debate in general. What ever gets you looking at scripture for any reason I'm all for...

As a bystander I would have to agree with what Tek has pointed out so far. It comes down to a matter of hate. Christ rose the bar of killing to also hating. If CS makes you hate, its probably not a good thing to participate in. You replied to tek with a definition of killing. If you examine your definition of killing, CS does has nothing to do with murder. No one is harmed in the playing of CS. Its merely an exchange of data across a copper wire. I'm not saying its impossible to sin while playing a game, I'm saying someone can play CS without putting thier Christianity at jeopardy.
(Hate equated to murder comes from Matt 5:21 since you asked earlier)

If you still don't agree DV, I will have to ask you what your definition of a person is.
Several people so far have said that they aren't thinking about killing anyone. I disagree, and if you think about it, you will too. Video games are immersive, while you play, you become your character. Take BF2 for instance, you hold a gun in the game and are armed with various weapons. What exactly do you do to the enemy? Shoot him, right?
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"Shoot" "him"? no, I only shoot guns at a shooting range under safe conditions, never at anyone. Your going to have to define shoot. And don't worry about defining "him" because there are no "him"s in computer games. There are no enemies. Its a means to having fun. Him defines a gender, and there are no people or genders in games, just graphics. Is burning a picture a killing? at least in computer games you can get the picture back....
 
"Would you mind explaining how you have a Christian demeanor when you are playing games whose sole purpose is to kill other players? How, exactly, does one glorify God while making a head shot?" But the sole purpose isn't to kill the other players. If that was the case, I wouldn't be alive here. Also, I doubt people would play becuase no one wants to really die. It's the whole "no one really dies" arguement. Making a headshot in CS is no different in my book than draining a fade away jumper in a basketball game. It's a point and nothing else.
You ask why I have my BF2 stats in my profile. I don't do it to boast. I do it so people can see 1. That I play BF2 so if they're looking for someone to play with, they know I play and 2. It gives people an idea of my progress in the game. When I ran track in high school, people constantly shared what their PR (personal record) is. It wasn't a boasting, but a way for everyone to see how each other was progressing. For example, if my PR pole-vaulting one day was 10' and then the next meet it goes to 11'6", then my teammates who migt have been busy running other events or friends at other meets can get an idea of what happened and join in the happiness of my improvement. It's a way for everyone to encourage each other and watch each other get better.
"Several now have equated virtual killing to paintball. You know, there ARE paintball video games. Why not just play those? Why play a game that simulates killing, murder, death?" Yes there are paintball games. But what does paintball simulate? Shooting other people. But in this shooting, people don't actually get hurt and no one dies, just like in a game like Halo. So I guess using your logic of why Christians shouldn't play CS, they also shouldn't play paintball.
 
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