What is god?

I believe that Jesus may have been a living person, or he may only have been a character in a book. And if he was alive, I don't believe he could have risen from the dead. This is because of my premises about human physiology. Maybe this is one of the fundamental points that we differ on.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (illegal prophet @ Dec. 29 2003,6:05)]If heaven is a place with no sin,
And all people sin,
Then there are no people in heaven
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Mmm...eschatology....

At any rate, you are correct in saying that all people sin and that heaven is a place with no sin. However, depending on your view of God's judgement, the righteous and sanctified will be cleansed by God so that they (we?) may be fit to enter into everlasting communion with Him. I had to make the exception "depending on your view..." because there are different viewpoints on when we enter heaven, or even what "part" of us enters heaven.

[b said:
Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Dec. 29 2003,9:43)]Not in the flesh and bone sense of people that you see everyday as you walk down the street. These bodies are contaminated by sin. Our spirit resides in heavan at our death and at some point in the future (as is measured by man in this world), we will have glorified bodies that are not tainted by the sin of this world.
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Whoa...careful there. The best idea we have about the resurrection is from Jesus' example. When He appeared to His disciples, was He not flesh and bone? Could they not touch His scars? True, He could walk through walls and "beam" around, but His resurrected body certainly looked a lot like His other body... You are certainly correct, however, in saying that our "new" bodies will not be tainted. How I await that day!

Also, there are a nice handful of theories as to what happens when we die, before the great resurrection. Not everyone believes that our "spirits" go to heaven immediately.

Yeah, so you can probably tell by now illegal prophet that there definitely are some basic tenets to Christianity and belief in God, but a lot of questions are pretty complex, unfortunately... When trying to answer tough questions, we do the best we can with Scripture!
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]At any rate, you are correct in saying that all people sin and that heaven is a place with no sin.
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Well, the third line was just a deduction from the first two lines that were given to me. If the first two lines aren't agreed with, then then the conclusion doesn't hold.

BTW, I don't even know what sin is, other than the christian concept of bad behavior. Could you define sin in the same terms as you did god?

Also, is sin the product of freewill?
 
yes sin is from freewill. if it wasnt for free will we would all still be in the garden of eden and to me that wouldt be to bad. and the thing bout Jesus rising from the dead, for us Christians we believe Jesus was FULLY GOD, and also FULLY MAN. heck he raised lazures (sp?) from the dead even though he was dead for what is believed somewhere around a week. and as far as sins go here are the ten commandments:
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

now in the NT there is another commandment that is above all else: Love God with all your mind, spirit, strength, and soul.
 
I guess I didn't add my qualifier correctly.

...flesh and bones, contaminated by sin.

I should not have put the qualifier in a second sentance.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (illegal prophet @ Dec. 30 2003,4:15)]Well, the third line was just a deduction from the first two lines that were given to me. If the first two lines aren't agreed with, then then the conclusion doesn't hold.
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True, from your stance of basic logic. The thing in Christianity that makes the final statement untrue is God's cleansing of us.

Sin is a product of our free will. Any sin can, at the most basic level, be reduced to following our own will when it violates God's will. As Atown noted, we have two main places to look when trying to figure out what is qualified as "sin": the 10 Commandments in the Old Testament and Jesus' proclamation and summarization of those 10 Commandments in His two commandments (love for God and love for each other - each of the 10 Commandments falls under one of those two categories) in the New Testament.

I'm also a little confused...you seem to possess decent logic skills and you obviously know what an apologist is...that makes me think that you know a bit more than you're letting on. Am I reading too much into this?
 
good point tasty, i dont even know what a apologist is.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Atown @ Jan. 01 2004,12:42)]i dont even know what a apologist is.
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It is basically a defender. Or maby verbal defender would be a better way to put it.

a·pol·o·gist [ ə pólləjəst ] (plural a·pol·o·gists)

noun  

somebody who defends or justifies something: somebody who argues to defend or justify a particular doctrine or ideology.

ap·o·lo·gi·a [ àppə lṓjee ə, ə plə j ə ] (plural ap·o·lo·gi·as)

noun  

justification: a formal, usually written, defense or justification of a belief, theory, or policy ( formal )
 
umm ok thanks for the dictionary meaning.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]...that makes me think that you know a bit more than you're letting on. Am I reading too much into this?
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I was born and raised an atheist, so I don't know the details of any religion. That's why I'm trying to approach the topic by gathering facts(definitions, premises, etc) and then seeing how they relate within the religion, and also to see how they relate to my own beliefs.

As for apologetics; I wanted to find out what god is, and then discuss the possibility of god's existence. But I've learned that your premises, such as the correctness of the bible, lead you to the inevitable conclusion that god exists. And it's because of my own premises that I conclude that said god does not exist. I doubt we can convince each other any differently, so I can at least learn the nuts and bolts of your religion. I'll try to post the details of my "religion" before break ends.
 
A couple of deductions about heaven and free will...

If heaven is a place with no sin,
And sin is the human product of free will,
Then there is no free will in heaven


Also...

If there is no sin in heaven,
And sin is the product of our free will,
And god cleanses humans so they may enter heaven,
Then god’s cleansing is the removal of free will
 
well teechnically for me when i get to heaven i aint gonna have my human body. in the Bible is says that we will have new bodys, forgive me for my lack of remembering exact scripture. and for me heaven will be a place of absolute happyness: no wrrying bout people stil on earth, no sins, and maybe no free will. to me that would be awesome to be free of free will in heaven, cuz i know no matter what i'll be happy.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (illegal prophet @ Jan. 01 2004,11:01)]A couple of deductions about heaven and free will...

If heaven is a place with no sin,
And sin is the human product of free will,
Then there is no free will in heaven


Also...

If there is no sin in heaven,
And sin is the product of our free will,
And god cleanses humans so they may enter heaven,
Then god’s cleansing is the removal of free will
Click to expand...
In a sense, you are correct. In Scripture we find that in heaven we will worship God eternally. That much is promised. In order to get to heaven, shouldn't that be our desire? Not to just "get" to heaven, but because we long to worship our Creator as we were meant to, everlastingly.

Thus, "free will" is a moot point, although you are somewhat correct. Our will will finally match up with God's will, and we will want the things He does. Free will on earth enables us to choose Him over evil, thus it won't be necessary in heaven since there won't be any evil to choose!
 
I don't remember it mentioned, but does god have free will? It was mentioned that god cannot lie, but can god sin?


As an aside, how is it known that god cannot lie?
 
Has he ever? To lie would undo God. Without God, the universe would snap apart. It is God's Word that keeps everything functioning. To have the Word removed by creating a paradox of self-contradiction would not only eliminate God, but all things, and if nothing is, then there's really not much left, is there? Eternity as absence of everything: hell, heaven, space, matter, ANYTHING.

If God, who is the embodiment of Truth, for God said that He is the Way, Truth and Life, did not tell the truth, then God is no longer God, and thus cannot be.
That is why God cannot lie nor sin. Sin is not of God, so it cannot be a part of anything that is God. Meaning God.
 
I didn’t quite understand your reply, but I’m guessing that I misunderstood what was meant by “god cannot lie”. Did that statement mean that god cannot say, “This text is red”. Or do you mean that if god said, “this text is red”, that the text would turn red?

And a related question; can god sin? Or if god commits a sin, is it no longer a sin?


Well, those are all the questions I have time to ask. For anyone who’s curious, my own beliefs are based on science. If you’re familiar with the law of thermodynamics you’ll know that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. Based on this premise, the enivitable conclusion is that the universe cannot be created or destroyed. And if the universe was never created, there was no creator. I don’t find this sad at all, because I find peace knowing that the universe cannot be destroyed. And the universe itself, being everything with no beginning and no end, can even be considered to be god itself. And if the universe is god, the only way to know “god” is by using science. Physics, biology, astronomy, etc… each allows me to learn a little more about “god” and to see in greater detail god’s beauty.


Anyways, thanks for the answers. If I think of anymore questions, I’ll try and post them next break.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (illegal prophet @ Jan. 03 2004,2:48)]And a related question; can god sin? Or if god commits a sin, is it no longer a sin?
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No. Sin by definition is deviation from God's will. God does not deviate from God's own will.

Ultima's explanation of lying is one of the best I've heard. Kudos ^^
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (illegal prophet @ Jan. 03 2004,2:48)]And the universe itself, being everything with no beginning and no end, can even be considered to be god itself. And if the universe is god, the only way to know “god” is by using science. Physics, biology, astronomy, etc… each allows me to learn a little more about “god” and to see in greater detail god’s beauty.
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Hehe...you're beliefs are a nice little mix of Ralph Waldo Emerson, Edgar Allen Poe, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson.
 
All right. According to the first law of thermodynamics, we deal strictly with the physical world, the tangible presence of THINGS.
But God is intangible. Is there such an exception? Can there be a phenomena that science absolutely cannot explain? Like God? And if science can't be right 100% of the time, is it possible this God thing can be superior to science, above science, apart from the hold of the material things, such as time, substance, form and entropy? And if such a thing is apart from such boundaries that we humans are accustomed to, then is it possible this God could break such rules?

God wouldn't waste his time on such a pathetic little hypothetic. It's just not in the nature of God. I mean, you never saw God come down from Sinai to point out to little Israeli junior: "Hey, man, that rock you're sitting on...it's hot." And then the rock turns hot because God said so.
God DID say things that would happen that did. Does that mean His saying it made it happen? Or was He just saying things He saw that would come to pass, thanks to his omniscience? And if something's all-knowing, then you must admit, it's a tad beyond human measure, and if it's beyond human measure, we may not be able to apply our rules to something extraterrestrial.

God told us comings of war, comings of destruction, comings of salvation; never something about "Papyrus is paper" that would make papyrus turn to paper. Mistakes are not a part of God's nature (though sometimes I wonder if humans were a mistake).
 
That's the exact same argument that was mocked in Dogma - God can't be wrong, because it undoes the whole of existence, which is founded on the infalliability of Gods word.

Eon
 
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