illegal if you want to know more bout astronomy, go to www.reasons.org . Christian organization who use science and astronomy to show that God DOES exist. go to the radio archives those are pretty good to listen to.
What is god?
- Thread starter illegal prophet
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LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
Atown just because i am in a very synical mood,
Anyone can get some numbers and some scientist to back what they say and make it prove there Point, its not that hard to do. Now then in science its not about faith but about FACTs and that is the way it is, man i would love to see Eon or Mustard tare this apart because i think they could easily.
Anyone can get some numbers and some scientist to back what they say and make it prove there Point, its not that hard to do. Now then in science its not about faith but about FACTs and that is the way it is, man i would love to see Eon or Mustard tare this apart because i think they could easily.
Ultima Avatar
New Member
Why wait for them? I'll do it.
Science is about faith to a degree. Science is merely a seeking out, a sojourn of knowledge, and beyond that nothing more. This trek through knowing can help humans advance in ways that better our lives, and in ways that worsen our lives. It's funny, but it's true.
When a theory is made, a lot of thought is put into it, and if a theory is proven wrong, well, the originator, if s/he is a critical thinker, will go Greek and accept whatever seems logically better and more reasonable.
Alas, humans don't know everything, so we have to go on hunches, and so science is as much a leap of faith in some departments as God is. Scientology, the religion of science, is basically a "faith" of "science"; applause can be directed towards one Hubbard.
Precisimo Eon. Dogma was an interesting movie, but it lacked some fundamentals of God that make for an interesting New Jersey movie. But if one can assume that God made everything, and if one believes that God says He is truth, then if God lies or is proven wrong, then the world that is sustained by his Word, the Word that is God, is nothing all of a sudden.
Alas, Dogma only aided in fictional proof that God can't be wrong, because God wasn't wrong. I mean, it was interesting, but not highly accurate. How many fallen angels do you kill via golf clubs, or how many angels do you see slapping their tops into your face? Not so many...
Science is about faith to a degree. Science is merely a seeking out, a sojourn of knowledge, and beyond that nothing more. This trek through knowing can help humans advance in ways that better our lives, and in ways that worsen our lives. It's funny, but it's true.
When a theory is made, a lot of thought is put into it, and if a theory is proven wrong, well, the originator, if s/he is a critical thinker, will go Greek and accept whatever seems logically better and more reasonable.
Alas, humans don't know everything, so we have to go on hunches, and so science is as much a leap of faith in some departments as God is. Scientology, the religion of science, is basically a "faith" of "science"; applause can be directed towards one Hubbard.
Precisimo Eon. Dogma was an interesting movie, but it lacked some fundamentals of God that make for an interesting New Jersey movie. But if one can assume that God made everything, and if one believes that God says He is truth, then if God lies or is proven wrong, then the world that is sustained by his Word, the Word that is God, is nothing all of a sudden.
Alas, Dogma only aided in fictional proof that God can't be wrong, because God wasn't wrong. I mean, it was interesting, but not highly accurate. How many fallen angels do you kill via golf clubs, or how many angels do you see slapping their tops into your face? Not so many...
TastyWheat
New Member
Well, Jersey is a pretty wild place[b said:
illegal prophet
New Member
Interesting. I know that Einstein had come to this conclusion as well.[b said:
Is this to say that god is not made of matter and energy?[b said:
Also, I've noticed that some poster’s tones have changed a bit. Is it upsetting to hear a conflicting belief?
Unfortunately, I won't have time to post during the quarter. But if there is evidence, firstly, that my beliefs are incorrect, and secondly, that your beliefs are correct, I very much want to know about it. To make it easier for you, here’s a recap of my more basic beliefs:
1 If god exists, he is the creator of the universe
2 If matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, the universe has always existed
3 If the universe has always existed, then there was no creation of the universe
4 If there was no creation of the universe, there is no creator of the universe
5 If there is no creator of the universe, god does not exist
BTW, scientology seems to be a pseudo-science. And from the few things I’ve read about scientologists, I wouldn’t have anything to do with those people.
well i dont know about physics i will admit that. however the proper understanding of everything in life begins with God. No one will ever understand the necessity of conversion who does not know why God created us. He created us "in His image" so that we would image forth his glory in the world.
edit: also you have to remmember as Christians we have a PERSONAL relationship with GOD. just a another little tid bit.
edit: also you have to remmember as Christians we have a PERSONAL relationship with GOD. just a another little tid bit.
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
What holds the Atom together. really its just a bunch of Empty space.
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The Dark Tower had an interesting take on atomic superstructure...
A conflicting belief? Yours? Well. The point of discussion is to, well, discuss. That means argue too. What fun.
Anywho, to answer your question of God's ultimate composition: I don't know what God's composed of, but it's nothing substantial that I can finger. God exists beyond matter and limitations of physical parameters. So, to answer it: I do not believe God consists of matter and energy. Yet he is the source for all matter and energy. Perhaps "source" is not the best word. He is the maker of all matter and energy.
So, according to your beliefs...if you believe one simple factor in any of your if-then beliefs, then the rest of your if-thens are changed to suit the new belief you suppose in the others' places.
According to your beliefs, as well, though you haven't stated such, you absolutely will not accept anything we say or show you. So I ponder why I'm wasting my time writing now. One of these days I'd love to say, "Screw the Great Commission. It hardly ever turns up results."
"If matter and energy cannot be created" relies on a physical boundary. So are you going to assume God is existing beyond energy if I tell you so and show you Biblcal references? Because the Bible is the Word of God, which is this Being that says it exists outside of our little realm of physics...
Atown, I really recommend you don't enter an argument without knowing squat about the topic you're going against. "Because God says so" or "It all starts with God" holds no weight in an argument. Which is why I found it idiotic of my classmates freshman year to go against this biology teacher at TAMU on why they felt evolution was "totally wrong". They got ripped to meaty shreds. Never enter an argument where the discussion is way beyond your head. "God did it, and that's all we need to know" is not the best way to pose your argument.
A conflicting belief? Yours? Well. The point of discussion is to, well, discuss. That means argue too. What fun.
Anywho, to answer your question of God's ultimate composition: I don't know what God's composed of, but it's nothing substantial that I can finger. God exists beyond matter and limitations of physical parameters. So, to answer it: I do not believe God consists of matter and energy. Yet he is the source for all matter and energy. Perhaps "source" is not the best word. He is the maker of all matter and energy.
So, according to your beliefs...if you believe one simple factor in any of your if-then beliefs, then the rest of your if-thens are changed to suit the new belief you suppose in the others' places.
According to your beliefs, as well, though you haven't stated such, you absolutely will not accept anything we say or show you. So I ponder why I'm wasting my time writing now. One of these days I'd love to say, "Screw the Great Commission. It hardly ever turns up results."
"If matter and energy cannot be created" relies on a physical boundary. So are you going to assume God is existing beyond energy if I tell you so and show you Biblcal references? Because the Bible is the Word of God, which is this Being that says it exists outside of our little realm of physics...
Atown, I really recommend you don't enter an argument without knowing squat about the topic you're going against. "Because God says so" or "It all starts with God" holds no weight in an argument. Which is why I found it idiotic of my classmates freshman year to go against this biology teacher at TAMU on why they felt evolution was "totally wrong". They got ripped to meaty shreds. Never enter an argument where the discussion is way beyond your head. "God did it, and that's all we need to know" is not the best way to pose your argument.
well forgive me for doing my best and trying to help illegal see some freaking light in this argument that is circluar.
illegal prophet
New Member
That's an incorrect assumption and you should know why(see your own text, which I've underlined).[b said:
You've previously answered your own question with...[b said:
Personally, I think the beauty of discussion is to compare and contrast ideas, as well as to guage their likelyhood of being correct. But I suppose you have a strong desire to convince people to agree with you. It is possible, but you'll need to convince people that the premises that support your belief are correct. Of course the nature of proselytizing is a two way street; when you open up with your beliefs there's a chance that opposing evidence may surface.[b said:
You would first have to convince me that the bible is a reliable, and factual reference.[b said:
ok ok i know something on Bible being factual!! looking back a post made by i believe timor about the false prophocy of the dustruction of the city of tyre. in the Bible i cant find the verse for the life of me, Ezekiel predicts the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadrezzar. will be utterly destroyed and "made a bare rock" which will "never be rebuilt "have many nations come up against it" "destroy the walls and scrape them into the sea" and "tyre will be a place where fishermen will dry their nets". now some say this never happend but it did, Nebuchadrezzar sieged the city for 13 years and was destroyed. Nebuchadrezzar plunderd and stuff and then aparently there was an island city of tyre as well. now during Alexander the greats rule the island city of tyre refused to pay tribute to Alex. Alex then went and destroyed the rest of the orignal tyres walls and scraped them into the sea making a bridge from city tyre to island trye
. Alex relizing he needed a navy to fully take the island, he began gathering an army from many difrent nations and FULLY destroyed tyre. today tyre is a place where fisherman dry their nets. all prophocy fufilled.
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Precisely, illegal. I can't prove the Bible's factual. No one ever will. It's freaking impossible. We can't dig about the ruins of Sodom and say: Hey, look guys, this is meteor flame from Heaven, very specific carbon compound composition. Proves God did it.
We can't do it, which is why I say, as I have said to many in the past: it is moot to argue with you about this, or discuss any aspect of Christianity, since you cannot accept it unless you have total proof of its truth and authorization of evidence. It's not possible, so I make a claim based on my previous experience with many, many people just like you who never acce[ted and will never accept, because it's just not provable. And that's fine. I'm not here to convince you. I am sorry if I made that assumption...I'm here to share. But after a while, I find it's worthless for me to share, since the words fall on deaf ears. So it's fine with me if you would like to listen, but never accept.
That's how I came to that assumption.
Actually, Nebuchadnezzer fled his siege. He never destroyed Tyre once.
However, God's made prophecies before that say: I'm going to kill you all for this, and then doesn't. What happened? Was God wrong? Or did he relent?
Did he relent on Tyre? Did he change his mind? God can do that. He does often. You can see it throughout the Bible.
We can't do it, which is why I say, as I have said to many in the past: it is moot to argue with you about this, or discuss any aspect of Christianity, since you cannot accept it unless you have total proof of its truth and authorization of evidence. It's not possible, so I make a claim based on my previous experience with many, many people just like you who never acce[ted and will never accept, because it's just not provable. And that's fine. I'm not here to convince you. I am sorry if I made that assumption...I'm here to share. But after a while, I find it's worthless for me to share, since the words fall on deaf ears. So it's fine with me if you would like to listen, but never accept.
That's how I came to that assumption.
Actually, Nebuchadnezzer fled his siege. He never destroyed Tyre once.
However, God's made prophecies before that say: I'm going to kill you all for this, and then doesn't. What happened? Was God wrong? Or did he relent?
Did he relent on Tyre? Did he change his mind? God can do that. He does often. You can see it throughout the Bible.
what verse says nebby ran away?? and in reference to Jonahs story, the people repented for their sins, Tyre was a city that God said nebby could plunder. very big diffrences.
Ezekiel 26
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?
16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.
17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!
18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.
19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.
[End of Chapter]
Verses 1-6 is what God has said, Will be all that entails Tyres Destruction.
verses 7-14 Talks about Nebbys Destruction of tyre.
Verses 15-21 Talks about how much the island of Tyre will suffer.
Some will say that Nebby never even broke down the walls of Tyre which is partly true since he never touched the Island of tyres walls. The diffrences is noted in the city and the island is noted in the diffrences of refernce Ezekeal 26:7-14 and 26:15-21. Nebby was never predicted to have seiged the Island.
Chapter 21 was kinda lame in that it was just a lementation for Tyre, however it showed the wealth and strength of tyre.
Ezekiel 28
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Chapter 28:1-5 is interesting since it gives praise to the prince of Tyre for his supposed wisdom.
Now 7-10 its takling about the islands semi destruction by the Muslims.
12-19 says "take up a lementation for the king of Tyre". to me this a refernce to a spiritual battle with satan but thats just me.
Ezekiel 26
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?
16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.
17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!
18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.
19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.
[End of Chapter]
Verses 1-6 is what God has said, Will be all that entails Tyres Destruction.
verses 7-14 Talks about Nebbys Destruction of tyre.
Verses 15-21 Talks about how much the island of Tyre will suffer.
Some will say that Nebby never even broke down the walls of Tyre which is partly true since he never touched the Island of tyres walls. The diffrences is noted in the city and the island is noted in the diffrences of refernce Ezekeal 26:7-14 and 26:15-21. Nebby was never predicted to have seiged the Island.
Chapter 21 was kinda lame in that it was just a lementation for Tyre, however it showed the wealth and strength of tyre.
Ezekiel 28
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Chapter 28:1-5 is interesting since it gives praise to the prince of Tyre for his supposed wisdom.
Now 7-10 its takling about the islands semi destruction by the Muslims.
12-19 says "take up a lementation for the king of Tyre". to me this a refernce to a spiritual battle with satan but thats just me.
Okay, a new guy will throw his hat into this circus ring.
Where to begin? Let us start at the beginning. In this universe, there are two options for it's existing (that I can see). Either it has always been, or at some point it was created. I can't get my head around the idea of it "always having been"... it just doesn't compute. All laws of nature and science seem to go against it - entropy especially (I will look into this idea and think about it more though). So that leaves me with the universe started argument. I have read many books on Astrophysics that tell me that the universe is still expanding. (I will never be able to prove this for myself though). This means that it must have started expanding at some point - the "big-bang". Whether you believe in a literal 6 day creation or a billion year evolved creation, the big bang is still the starting event. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" sounds awfully like a big bang to me. Regardless of their other beliefs, most scientists say that the universe came into existence in a hugely explosive way - big badda boom.
What caused the big bang? Well, scientists like to say that (a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?) a super dense ball of matter and energy became unstable and exploded. This ball of matter and energy expanded (and is still expanding) and created the universe as we know it. That's fine, that would give us a starting point that most scientists could agree on. But where did that ball of matter and energy come from? It couldn't have always been (see above thoughts on a never-starting universe) so it must have been created. Uhoh, that means there would have to be a creator. Or rather a Creator God.
That leads to the problem of who created God? My answer is simple, but my reasoning is beyond my reckoning to figure out. God has always been - He was not created. But if the universe could not (IMO) be never starting, how can God not have starting point? This is where I take the leap of faith to help me understand this. God created time. Before God created time, it did not exist (my head hurts just trying to think about this). If time did not exist before God created it, then God would not need to have a starting point because when time started, God was already there.
To end my quick thoughts on creation (stop the cheering in the peanut gallery
), do I believe in a 6 day creation or a billion year evolution? What does the bible say? It says that God created the world in 6 days and on the seventh He rested. How long is a day? 24 hours - 12 hours (of sunlight before night comes) - many years (he was a major star in his day). So God could have created the world in six 24 hour periods or six periods of undeterminable length. People say that you limit God's power by saying He needed billions of years to create this glowing ball of green and blue. However, don't you limit Him by saying He needed 6 literal days to create this island earth?
Bottom line to me is this... it doesn't really matter how long it took God to create the universe. There are many more important things to discuss. I consider growing closer to God and His will in my life to be more important. Or maybe helping those less fortunate than us could be deemed more important than how long did it take God to create the universe? Or what about that old thing that preachers keep bringing up... telling people about God.
Discussions are healthy and good, but they are not the reason for living. I pray that those people who are searching for God will find Him and find Him soon. So ends my diatribe/sermon for now. If you want to hear my thoughts on heaven, let me know.
Rich ~ Skowsa
Where to begin? Let us start at the beginning. In this universe, there are two options for it's existing (that I can see). Either it has always been, or at some point it was created. I can't get my head around the idea of it "always having been"... it just doesn't compute. All laws of nature and science seem to go against it - entropy especially (I will look into this idea and think about it more though). So that leaves me with the universe started argument. I have read many books on Astrophysics that tell me that the universe is still expanding. (I will never be able to prove this for myself though). This means that it must have started expanding at some point - the "big-bang". Whether you believe in a literal 6 day creation or a billion year evolved creation, the big bang is still the starting event. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" sounds awfully like a big bang to me. Regardless of their other beliefs, most scientists say that the universe came into existence in a hugely explosive way - big badda boom.
What caused the big bang? Well, scientists like to say that (a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?) a super dense ball of matter and energy became unstable and exploded. This ball of matter and energy expanded (and is still expanding) and created the universe as we know it. That's fine, that would give us a starting point that most scientists could agree on. But where did that ball of matter and energy come from? It couldn't have always been (see above thoughts on a never-starting universe) so it must have been created. Uhoh, that means there would have to be a creator. Or rather a Creator God.
That leads to the problem of who created God? My answer is simple, but my reasoning is beyond my reckoning to figure out. God has always been - He was not created. But if the universe could not (IMO) be never starting, how can God not have starting point? This is where I take the leap of faith to help me understand this. God created time. Before God created time, it did not exist (my head hurts just trying to think about this). If time did not exist before God created it, then God would not need to have a starting point because when time started, God was already there.
To end my quick thoughts on creation (stop the cheering in the peanut gallery
Bottom line to me is this... it doesn't really matter how long it took God to create the universe. There are many more important things to discuss. I consider growing closer to God and His will in my life to be more important. Or maybe helping those less fortunate than us could be deemed more important than how long did it take God to create the universe? Or what about that old thing that preachers keep bringing up... telling people about God.
Discussions are healthy and good, but they are not the reason for living. I pray that those people who are searching for God will find Him and find Him soon. So ends my diatribe/sermon for now. If you want to hear my thoughts on heaven, let me know.
Rich ~ Skowsa
lol good post skowsa. now when u said the universe is still expanding that is dark energy right? and if illegal prophet would go to the reasons.org he find all the info that points out that God is a being with a will of his own removed from space and time.better yet heres the info from the website about God and the big bang
Big Bang - The Bible Taught It First!
By Hugh Ross and John Rea
Most science textbooks that address cosmology credit Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson with the discovery that the universe arose from a hot big bang creation event. While it is true that they were the first (1965) to detect the radiation left over from the creation event,1 they were not the first scientists to recognize that the universe expanded from an extremely hot and compact state. In 1946 George Gamow calculated that nothing less than the universe expanding from a near infinitely hot condition could account for the present abundance of elements.2 In 1929 observations made by Edwin Hubble established that the velocities of galaxies result from a general expansion of the universe.3 Beginning in 1925 Abbé Georges Lemaître, who was both an astrophysicist and a Jesuit priest, was the first scientist to promote a big bang creation event.4
The first direct scientific evidence for a big bang universe dates back to 1916. That is when Albert Einstein noted that his field equations of general relativity predicted an expanding universe.5 Unwilling to accept the cosmic beginning implied by such expansion, Einstein altered his theory to conform with the common wisdom of his day, namely an eternally existing universe.6
All these scientists, however, were upstaged by 2500 years and more by Job, Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other Bible authors. The Bible’s prophets and apostles stated explicitly and repeatedly the two most fundamental properties of the big bang, a transcendent cosmic beginning a finite time period ago and a universe undergoing a general, continual expansion. In Isaiah 42:5 both properties were declared, “This is what the Lord says—He who created the heavens and stretched them out.”
The Hebrew verb translated “created” in Isaiah 42:5 is bara’ which has as its primary definition “bringing into existence something new, something that did not exist before.”7 The proclamation that God created (bara’) the entirety of the heavens is stated seven times in the Old Testament. (Genesis 1:1; 2:3; 2:4; Psalm 148:5; Isaiah 40:26; 42:5; 45:18). This principle of transcendent creation is made more explicit by passages like Hebrews 11:3 which states that the universe that we humans can measure and detect was made out of that which we cannot measure or detect. Also, Isaiah 45:5-22; John 1:3; and Colossians 1:15-17 stipulate that God alone is the agent for the universe’s existence. Biblical claims that God predated the universe and was actively involved in causing certain effects before the existence of the universe is not only found in Colossians 1 but also in Proverbs 8:22-31; John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and 1 Peter 1:20.
The characteristic of the universe stated more frequently than any other in the Bible is its being “stretched out.” Five different Bible authors pen such a statement in eleven different verses: Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; and Zechariah 12:1. Job 37:18 appears to be a twelfth verse. However, the word used for “heavens” or “skies” is shehaqîm which refers to the clouds of fine particles (of water or dust) that are located in Earth’s atmosphere,8 not the shamayim, the heavens of the astronomical universe.9 Three of the eleven verses, Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24; and 45:12 make the point that God alone was responsible for the cosmic stretching.
What is particularly interesting about the eleven verses is that different Hebrew verb forms are used to describe the cosmic stretching. Seven verses, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; and Zechariah 12:1 employ the Qal active participle form of the verb natah. This form literally means “the stretcher out of them” (the heavens) and implies continual or ongoing stretching. Four verses, Isaiah 45:12; 48:13; and Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15 use the Qal perfect form. This form literally means that the stretching of the heavens was completed or finished some time ago.
That the Bible really does claim that the stretching out of the heavens is both “finished” and “ongoing” is made all the more evident in Isaiah 40:22. There we find two different verbs used in two different forms. In the first of the final two parallel poetic lines, “stretches out” is the verb natah in the Qal active participle form. In the second (final) line the verb “spreads them out” (NASB, NIV, NKJV) is mathah (used only this one time in the Old Testament) in the waw consecutive plus Qal imperfect form, so that literally we might translate it “and he has spread them out . . .” The participles in lines one and three of Isaiah 40:22 characterize our sovereign God by His actions in all times, sitting enthroned above the earth and stretching out the heavens, constantly exercising his creative power in His ongoing providential work. This characterization is continued with reference to the past by means of waw consecutive with the imperfect, the conversive form indicating God’s completed act of spreading out the heavens. That is, this one verse literally states that God is both continuing to stretch out the heavens and has stretched them out.
This simultaneously finished and ongoing aspect of cosmic stretching is identical to the big bang concept of cosmic expansion. According to the big bang, at the creation event all the physics (specifically, the laws, constants, and equations of physics) are instantly created, designed, and finished so as to guarantee an ongoing, continual expansion of the universe at exactly the right rates with respect to time so that physical life will be possible.
This biblical claim for simultaneously finished and ongoing acts of creation, incidentally, is not limited to just the universe’s expansion. The same claim, for example, is made for God’s laying Earth’s foundations (Isaiah 51:3; Zechariah 12:1). This is consistent with the geophysical discovery that certain long-lived radiometric elements were placed into the earth’s crust a little more than four billion years ago in just the right quantities so as to guarantee the continual building of continents.
Finally, the Bible indirectly argues for a big bang universe by stating that the laws of thermodynamics, gravity, and electromagnetism have universally operated throughout the universe since the cosmic creation event itself. In Romans 8 we are told that the entire creation has been subjected to the law of decay (the second law of thermodynamics). This law in the context of an expanding universe establishes that the cosmos was much hotter in the past. In Genesis 1 and in many places throughout Job, Psalms, and Proverbs we are informed that stars have existed since the early times of creation. As explained in two Reasons To Believe books,10 even the slightest changes in either the laws of gravity or electromagnetism would make stars impossible. As already noted in the accompanying article, gravity, electromagnetism, and thermodynamics yield stable orbits of planets around stars and of electrons around the nuclei of atoms only if they operate in a universe described by three very large rapidly expanding dimensions of space.
References:
Arno A. Penzias and Robert W. Wilson, “A Measurement of Excess Antenna Temperature at 4080 Mc/s,” Astrophysical Journal 142 (1965): 419-21.
George Gamow, “Expanding Universe and the Origin of the Elements,” Physical Review 70 (1946): 572-73.
Edwin Hubble, “A Relation Between Distance and Radial Velocity Among Extra-Galactic Nebulae,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 15 (1929): 168-73.
Georges Lemaître, “A Homogeneous Universe of Constant Mass and Increasing Radius Accounting for the Radial Velocity of Extra-Galactic Nebulae,” Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 91 (1931): 483-90. The original paper appears in French in Annales de la Societé Scientifique de Bruxelles, Tome XLVII, Serie A, Premiere Partie (April, 1927): 49.
Albert Einstein, “Die Grundlage der allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie,” Annalen der Physik 49 (1916): 769-822. The English translation is in The Principle of Relativity by H. A. Lorentz, A. Einstein, H. Minkowski, and H. Weyl with notes by A. Sommerfeld and translated by W. Perrett and G. B. Jeffrey (London: Methuen and Co., 1923), 109-64.
Albert Einstein, “Kosmologische Betrachtungen zur allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie,” Sitzungsberichte der Königlich Preussichen Akademie der Wissenschaften (1917), Feb. 8, 142-52. The English translation is in The Principle of Relativity, 175-88.
R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament 1 (Chicago: Moody, 1980), 127.
Harris, Archer, and Waltke, vol. 2, 916.
Harris, Archer, and Waltke, 935.
Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos, 2d ed. (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 1995), 115-16; Hugh Ross, The Fingerprint of God, 2d ed. (Orange, CA: Promise Publishing, 1991), 84-87.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Big Bang - The Bible Taught It First!
By Hugh Ross and John Rea
Most science textbooks that address cosmology credit Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson with the discovery that the universe arose from a hot big bang creation event. While it is true that they were the first (1965) to detect the radiation left over from the creation event,1 they were not the first scientists to recognize that the universe expanded from an extremely hot and compact state. In 1946 George Gamow calculated that nothing less than the universe expanding from a near infinitely hot condition could account for the present abundance of elements.2 In 1929 observations made by Edwin Hubble established that the velocities of galaxies result from a general expansion of the universe.3 Beginning in 1925 Abbé Georges Lemaître, who was both an astrophysicist and a Jesuit priest, was the first scientist to promote a big bang creation event.4
The first direct scientific evidence for a big bang universe dates back to 1916. That is when Albert Einstein noted that his field equations of general relativity predicted an expanding universe.5 Unwilling to accept the cosmic beginning implied by such expansion, Einstein altered his theory to conform with the common wisdom of his day, namely an eternally existing universe.6
All these scientists, however, were upstaged by 2500 years and more by Job, Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other Bible authors. The Bible’s prophets and apostles stated explicitly and repeatedly the two most fundamental properties of the big bang, a transcendent cosmic beginning a finite time period ago and a universe undergoing a general, continual expansion. In Isaiah 42:5 both properties were declared, “This is what the Lord says—He who created the heavens and stretched them out.”
The Hebrew verb translated “created” in Isaiah 42:5 is bara’ which has as its primary definition “bringing into existence something new, something that did not exist before.”7 The proclamation that God created (bara’) the entirety of the heavens is stated seven times in the Old Testament. (Genesis 1:1; 2:3; 2:4; Psalm 148:5; Isaiah 40:26; 42:5; 45:18). This principle of transcendent creation is made more explicit by passages like Hebrews 11:3 which states that the universe that we humans can measure and detect was made out of that which we cannot measure or detect. Also, Isaiah 45:5-22; John 1:3; and Colossians 1:15-17 stipulate that God alone is the agent for the universe’s existence. Biblical claims that God predated the universe and was actively involved in causing certain effects before the existence of the universe is not only found in Colossians 1 but also in Proverbs 8:22-31; John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and 1 Peter 1:20.
The characteristic of the universe stated more frequently than any other in the Bible is its being “stretched out.” Five different Bible authors pen such a statement in eleven different verses: Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; and Zechariah 12:1. Job 37:18 appears to be a twelfth verse. However, the word used for “heavens” or “skies” is shehaqîm which refers to the clouds of fine particles (of water or dust) that are located in Earth’s atmosphere,8 not the shamayim, the heavens of the astronomical universe.9 Three of the eleven verses, Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24; and 45:12 make the point that God alone was responsible for the cosmic stretching.
What is particularly interesting about the eleven verses is that different Hebrew verb forms are used to describe the cosmic stretching. Seven verses, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; and Zechariah 12:1 employ the Qal active participle form of the verb natah. This form literally means “the stretcher out of them” (the heavens) and implies continual or ongoing stretching. Four verses, Isaiah 45:12; 48:13; and Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15 use the Qal perfect form. This form literally means that the stretching of the heavens was completed or finished some time ago.
That the Bible really does claim that the stretching out of the heavens is both “finished” and “ongoing” is made all the more evident in Isaiah 40:22. There we find two different verbs used in two different forms. In the first of the final two parallel poetic lines, “stretches out” is the verb natah in the Qal active participle form. In the second (final) line the verb “spreads them out” (NASB, NIV, NKJV) is mathah (used only this one time in the Old Testament) in the waw consecutive plus Qal imperfect form, so that literally we might translate it “and he has spread them out . . .” The participles in lines one and three of Isaiah 40:22 characterize our sovereign God by His actions in all times, sitting enthroned above the earth and stretching out the heavens, constantly exercising his creative power in His ongoing providential work. This characterization is continued with reference to the past by means of waw consecutive with the imperfect, the conversive form indicating God’s completed act of spreading out the heavens. That is, this one verse literally states that God is both continuing to stretch out the heavens and has stretched them out.
This simultaneously finished and ongoing aspect of cosmic stretching is identical to the big bang concept of cosmic expansion. According to the big bang, at the creation event all the physics (specifically, the laws, constants, and equations of physics) are instantly created, designed, and finished so as to guarantee an ongoing, continual expansion of the universe at exactly the right rates with respect to time so that physical life will be possible.
This biblical claim for simultaneously finished and ongoing acts of creation, incidentally, is not limited to just the universe’s expansion. The same claim, for example, is made for God’s laying Earth’s foundations (Isaiah 51:3; Zechariah 12:1). This is consistent with the geophysical discovery that certain long-lived radiometric elements were placed into the earth’s crust a little more than four billion years ago in just the right quantities so as to guarantee the continual building of continents.
Finally, the Bible indirectly argues for a big bang universe by stating that the laws of thermodynamics, gravity, and electromagnetism have universally operated throughout the universe since the cosmic creation event itself. In Romans 8 we are told that the entire creation has been subjected to the law of decay (the second law of thermodynamics). This law in the context of an expanding universe establishes that the cosmos was much hotter in the past. In Genesis 1 and in many places throughout Job, Psalms, and Proverbs we are informed that stars have existed since the early times of creation. As explained in two Reasons To Believe books,10 even the slightest changes in either the laws of gravity or electromagnetism would make stars impossible. As already noted in the accompanying article, gravity, electromagnetism, and thermodynamics yield stable orbits of planets around stars and of electrons around the nuclei of atoms only if they operate in a universe described by three very large rapidly expanding dimensions of space.
References:
Arno A. Penzias and Robert W. Wilson, “A Measurement of Excess Antenna Temperature at 4080 Mc/s,” Astrophysical Journal 142 (1965): 419-21.
George Gamow, “Expanding Universe and the Origin of the Elements,” Physical Review 70 (1946): 572-73.
Edwin Hubble, “A Relation Between Distance and Radial Velocity Among Extra-Galactic Nebulae,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 15 (1929): 168-73.
Georges Lemaître, “A Homogeneous Universe of Constant Mass and Increasing Radius Accounting for the Radial Velocity of Extra-Galactic Nebulae,” Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 91 (1931): 483-90. The original paper appears in French in Annales de la Societé Scientifique de Bruxelles, Tome XLVII, Serie A, Premiere Partie (April, 1927): 49.
Albert Einstein, “Die Grundlage der allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie,” Annalen der Physik 49 (1916): 769-822. The English translation is in The Principle of Relativity by H. A. Lorentz, A. Einstein, H. Minkowski, and H. Weyl with notes by A. Sommerfeld and translated by W. Perrett and G. B. Jeffrey (London: Methuen and Co., 1923), 109-64.
Albert Einstein, “Kosmologische Betrachtungen zur allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie,” Sitzungsberichte der Königlich Preussichen Akademie der Wissenschaften (1917), Feb. 8, 142-52. The English translation is in The Principle of Relativity, 175-88.
R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament 1 (Chicago: Moody, 1980), 127.
Harris, Archer, and Waltke, vol. 2, 916.
Harris, Archer, and Waltke, 935.
Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos, 2d ed. (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 1995), 115-16; Hugh Ross, The Fingerprint of God, 2d ed. (Orange, CA: Promise Publishing, 1991), 84-87.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you think you're stretching a point a little to claim that "stretching it out" means the bible is the start of the big bang theory?
Besides which current cosmology has posited a state at which all matter will be condensed down to a single point - the precursor for ANOTHER big bang, so how does this cyclical model fit?
Besides which current cosmology has posited a state at which all matter will be condensed down to a single point - the precursor for ANOTHER big bang, so how does this cyclical model fit?
check out the reasons.org for all those answers. im really busy today so i cant get much done here today.
[toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D]
New Member
According to hubblesite.org, blackholes are created when dying suns explode as a supernova. In order for the blackhole to actually be created, the sun must be super-massive. Here is where I'd like to raise a small question. If before the big bang (the science version, not God's version) there was some large accumulation of mass, why did the bang not create one giant blackhole as science unknowingly says it should?
El Jefe de Nadie
spooky wooky wooky
Jesu Christi domine. - 'Cleopatra's Cat', Spindoctors
El Jefe de Nadie
spooky wooky wooky
Jesu Christi domine. - 'Cleopatra's Cat', Spindoctors
From what I understand of it... a black hole can be a star that gets so large, that it has enough gravity to suck the beams of light that it emits back into it. The fact that gravity has an effect on light has been proven in times past because of solar eclipses (you cant see the stars behind the sun durrin the day or at night, normally that is.)
You have to know your nuclear physics. Basically when a star begins to die it blasts its outer layers outwards in hugely destructive explosions - but every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. Each explosion that blows part of the star outwards also compacts the remaining core material - eventually that material reaches a threshold of denseness and its gravitational field begins pulling matter into it - a black hole.
Now, you have the remnants of this massive star, pulling everything into itself and crushing it really small before adding it to its core (the point of super-dense matter at the centre). The black hole travels through the galaxy/universe (in much the same way the original star did) and if it passes through another stellar system, it devours it. We have seen feeding blackholes - in fact this is when they're easiest to see, with huge plasma jets light years in length! All of this mass simply adds to the power of the black hole - and black holes are totally stable, according to our calculations a black hole never collapses. In addition, and this is the scary part, if two blackholes meet they amalgamate into one, bigger, blackhole - in essence combining the two cores into one larger one. It is known that the centre of our own galaxy consists of a series of huge blackholes.
Now, if blackholes swallowed all the matter in the universe, and then they collected it all together, you'd have the entire universe packed into a singularity - which is exactly what the big bang theory requires in order to work.
What the event is that causes the bang, I'm not sure, but I hope this helps you understand what little *I* know of the science behind this.
Now, you have the remnants of this massive star, pulling everything into itself and crushing it really small before adding it to its core (the point of super-dense matter at the centre). The black hole travels through the galaxy/universe (in much the same way the original star did) and if it passes through another stellar system, it devours it. We have seen feeding blackholes - in fact this is when they're easiest to see, with huge plasma jets light years in length! All of this mass simply adds to the power of the black hole - and black holes are totally stable, according to our calculations a black hole never collapses. In addition, and this is the scary part, if two blackholes meet they amalgamate into one, bigger, blackhole - in essence combining the two cores into one larger one. It is known that the centre of our own galaxy consists of a series of huge blackholes.
Now, if blackholes swallowed all the matter in the universe, and then they collected it all together, you'd have the entire universe packed into a singularity - which is exactly what the big bang theory requires in order to work.
What the event is that causes the bang, I'm not sure, but I hope this helps you understand what little *I* know of the science behind this.