Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
There are a couple of Amens in that quote and comment.
Unequal Taxation
- Thread starter Odale
- Start date
silverleaf
New Member
Yeah many things my government is doing that I don't agree with. And many of those things cost money. Also if I could have voted I'd have voted for the other guy.
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Avesther
New Member
The tax system can and does cause disparity amongst the classes in society because it is inherently evil. A societies tax system is used by the governing class to encourage or discourage behaviour of it's citizens. It rewards citizens that make decisions the government deems to be good and punishes the bad decisions.
You see wide variability in % of taxes paid as per income simply because some people have been able to conform to government standards easier. The rich can purchases tax deductions and tax credits a lot easier then the middle class or the poor. This happens because the middle class and the poor have to spend their income to simply survive (rent, utilities, mortgage, education, groceries to name a few). The rich have disposable income after paying for the necessaries of life. And if they can afford to purchase the tax deductions, they will, especially if there is a decent rate of return on that money invested.
Quite honestly, the government needs money to run. How much is debatable. And who should pay is also debatable. Ultimately, there needs to be a change in a tax regime that rewards and punishes unfairly. How the perfect system looks is to some degree debatable (I think the perfect system or close to perfect system would be based on God's tithing system 10% regardless of income). How you are going to get there is through a bunch of entitle minded bureaucrats and entitle minded citizens. And the bible has lots to say about the Entitlement Mentality that has infiltrated our society.
2 Thess. 3:7-12 and notice v10, “if any would not work, neither should he eat.”
You see wide variability in % of taxes paid as per income simply because some people have been able to conform to government standards easier. The rich can purchases tax deductions and tax credits a lot easier then the middle class or the poor. This happens because the middle class and the poor have to spend their income to simply survive (rent, utilities, mortgage, education, groceries to name a few). The rich have disposable income after paying for the necessaries of life. And if they can afford to purchase the tax deductions, they will, especially if there is a decent rate of return on that money invested.
Quite honestly, the government needs money to run. How much is debatable. And who should pay is also debatable. Ultimately, there needs to be a change in a tax regime that rewards and punishes unfairly. How the perfect system looks is to some degree debatable (I think the perfect system or close to perfect system would be based on God's tithing system 10% regardless of income). How you are going to get there is through a bunch of entitle minded bureaucrats and entitle minded citizens. And the bible has lots to say about the Entitlement Mentality that has infiltrated our society.
2 Thess. 3:7-12 and notice v10, “if any would not work, neither should he eat.”
Odale
Active Member
Unless you are referring to excise/luxury taxes, I don't see what you're getting at. In a capitalist society like the one in the U.S. I don't understand how taxes can be used to persuade or dissuade people from acting in a certain way. They are simply neutral, part of the purchase.
Avesther said:
What I bolded is what I am getting at, only instead the percentage is what everyone pays (not necessarily 10%).
I don't understand the relation between entitlements and equal taxation. Everyone lives here, so everyone pays the same percentage of their income - where do entitlements fit in there?
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Durruck
Pirate!
But that's not the only case where associated costs are mentioned. In Leviticus 5, it starts off by saying that if you are guilty of any out of this list of sins, you must bring a female lamb or goat (verse 6). However, if you cannot afford the lamb, bring two doves (verse 7). But if you cannot even afford two doves, bring flour (verse 11).
Even in pittance for sin, there was a system in which those who had more, paid more.
Even in pittance for sin, there was a system in which those who had more, paid more.
Patriot
Active Member
10% of 100,000 is more than 10% of 100. A flat rate does account for income level.
Avesther
New Member
I paid more in dollars, I should get more services. Or, I am poor, I deserve more services then what I paid for because I can't afford any more because (insert your typical the corporation is keeping the man down comment here). That is entitlement.
Odale
Active Member
I didn't ask what entitlement was, but rather where it fits into your explanation.
If everyone pays 30% (an arbitrary amount) of their annual income then it is equal. In a sense no one is paying more or less than anyone else because the proportion is the same for everyone. One of us might be a billionaire and the other might make $100,000 per year, so one of us would pay $30,000 in taxes and the other would pay $300M per year. It is the same proportion and thus equal.
So, here we go again, where do entitlements fit in?
Durruck
Pirate!
It fits in because there are people involved... we are generally egotistical and greedy. If I paid $300M in taxes as the billionaire, I might assume I am due a different response than the person that paid $3, regardless of the fact that we paid the same percentage. There is a disparity in payment, at that point. Not saying it's right, I'm saying it'll happen.
Irreverent. At some point, the billionaire only paid one lamb...which is still "nothing" compared to the poor person that gives 1 of their 2 bags of flour. Even a flat rate doesn't protect everyone from unfairness.
Avesther
New Member
The billionaire says: I paid $300,000,000 in taxes, I created 1000x the jobs the person who made 100,000 this year, they all paid taxes...I'm entitled to a little favor....and if I don't get it, I'll leave this country, make a billion somewhere else, employ thousands if not 10's of thousands of people there, who will all in turn pay taxes in that country. Show me some amount of favor...or I'm out of here!
I paid $30,000 in taxes but it would've been more. The man is keeping me down because they have more money then I. I could've earned more but I'm putting in 60 hours a week and have no time to go to school. I have a family of 4 too look after, and one of my children is about to go to university. I can barely put food on my plate with the $70,000 that is left and save for my kids school, pay for my wifes chemo, and save for retirement on that. I should get tax credits for all that so I have more disposable income to pay for the what I consider the basics of life. And if I don't get it, I will go on welfare where every thing is provided to me for free and make the man pay anyway.
Those are fairly extreme examples but all reasonable and taken from experience. (Adjusted a bit to fit your billionaire and $100,000 income earner).
Odale
Active Member
Just because taxing everyone equally (because that's precisely what it is - equal) might bring out some of the worst in human nature (e.g., greed) doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
Avesther, people have really threatened to emigrate because they would have to pay the same tax percentage as everyone else, really?
Avesther
New Member
Most of the worlds banks are headquartered in the Cayman Islands, alot of very wealthy people funnel investment funds through tax havens, a past Finance Minister (the Minister in charge of the Canadian Budget and tax rates) registered his shipping company in Barbodos to avoid Canadian tax. I have clients who have renounced their Canadian citizenship and took up citizenship in the turks and caicos islands. So yes, it does happen.
Durruck
Pirate!
The American Revolution was fought over taxation. I'd say yes.
Odale
Active Member
The American Revolution was fought because everyone in all of the colonies was subjected to unfair taxation. Currently, only the very rich people pay an unfairly low amount of taxes in comparison to the rest of the US.
Avesther
New Member
Taxing income was considered (and still is by many) a very close first cousin to slavery.
Patriot
Active Member
Nope. The very rich are practically funding the government by themselves.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
I'll grant you that the data is from 2008, but I bet it isn't much different today.
Um. . .that's the top 5% (very small percentage mind you) paying over half of the money collected by the federal government. The top 10% pays just about 70% of the money collected.
The top 1% pay close to 25% of their income into taxes. And the chart at the bottom shows that to be in the top 1% you only have to make over $380,000. No small potatoes, but also not as high as I thought it would be. Government takes a cool $95,000 off the top and you clear $285,000. Now let's discuss "fair" taxation of the rich.
And this isn't even going into the discussion of how the top earners are also the job creators.
Durruck
Pirate!
It's still a matter of this group over here (in this case, the colonists) being taxed differently than those people over there (in this case, the British). My point was this: You asked if people would leave a country over unequal taxation. My response was that yes, they have done so - to the point of forging a civil war against the homeland. Did they leave Britain? Sure, they gave up their rights as English citizens and became citizens of another country.
Odale
Active Member
You and your oranges are correct, but so are my apples. The Federal Government does "make most of its money off" (I hate to use that phrase) of the rich people, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a disparity between the taxation of the middle class and the taxation of the rich.
This is directly related to what Durruck said:
Durruck said:
The Federal Government "makes more money off" of the rich simply because they have a higher income... that's all there is to it.
I'm not going to say much about the notion of entitlements for simply holding a certain job and generating a certain income - that notion is crazy and in a country that was conceived with the ideals of equality, dare I say un-American?
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Patriot
Active Member
And they pay a higher percentage rate toward taxes.
Aha! The old un-American argument. Sorry, doesn't work on me. I'm adopted into a far better country, I'm not worried about sounding "American" (sorry if the handle "Patriot" threw you off - I'm a patriot of my adopted homeland). Anyway, bad tactic. It's similar to playing the race card.
As for this nation being founded on the ideals of equality. . .that has to do with everyone being "created" equal and being instilled with the same rights. What you do with it beyond that is up to you. Obviously, the founders had never intended equality of wealth (or they would have surrendered their own). Nor is their equality in station. I don't expect to be equal with the President or a CEO with regard to position/status, though I do expect equal protection under the law. I think too often people take the idea of equality and run way farther than the founding fathers ever intended. I guess I should mention the slavery that was rampant at the time they founded the nation.
Odale
Active Member
I'm pretty sure we covered that.