Things that God did not Create

[Ben Masada]

Things God Did Not Create


Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things. Good luck!
Ben

 

[Patriot]

Sin is an action (the transgression of the Law). Actions are not created, they are performed. God did not create the typing I'm currently doing in this post, nor am I creating it, I am performing it. God created creatures with the ability to sin, but that is not the same thing as creating sin.

However, I disagree on energy, time, and space. I believe them to be created as they are integral to the created universe.

 

[Keero]

And which scriptures back up this idea?

 

[ewoksrule]

We know God is not the Author of sin but did God create the "Curse" that now affects all created things thanks to "the fall"?

 

[Lazarus]

Things God Did Not Create


Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things. Good luck!
Ben

And in addition to all of that, God also created arrogant theists! What a wonderful world!

 

[Abba San]

Once again, Lazarus nails it - thanks.

I get tickled when someone starts saying things about God, call it a revelation, and never a reference to scripture.

And it really is a wonderful world.

 

[Ben Masada]

Sin is an action (the transgression of the Law). Actions are not created, they are performed. God did not create the typing I'm currently doing in this post, nor am I creating it, I am performing it. God created creatures with the ability to sin, but that is not the same thing as creating sin.

However, I disagree on energy, time, and space. I believe them to be created as they are integral to the created universe.

Patriot, I agree with you with regards to performing a sinful action and to anything else within the identification with performing. But, God did not create us with the ability to sin; He created us straight, according to Ecclesiastes 7:29. However, He granted us with freewill and, we misused our freewill to do evil. Now, for energy, time and space, as I mentioned in the thread, God created matter, energy is an accident of matter, time is the measurement of motion, and space the measurement between matter and matter.

And which scriptures back up this idea?

a) Ecclesiastes 7:29;

b) Logic; and

c) Physics.

We know God is not the Author of sin but did God create the "Curse" that now affects all created things thanks to "the fall"?

No, everything that God has created, behold it is good! Only in the first chapter of Genesis, this expression is repeated seven times. Anything natural is part of the universe. It becomes a curse or tragedy only if there are casualties, which man is responsible for, either for being on the wrong place at the wrong time or for not having applied his potential to learn how to control the works of nature.

And in addition to all of that, God also created arrogant theists! What a wonderful world!

I don't agree with you. Arrogance is evil, and evil is the absence of good. Therefore, you are mistaken. God did not create arrogance. We become whereas temporarily, if we don't make a habit of it as most Atheists do.

Once again, Lazarus nails it - thanks.

I get tickled when someone starts saying things about God, call it a revelation, and never a reference to scripture.

And it really is a wonderful world.

Do not worry Abba San, if your sweet tooth is for Scriptural references, you will learn a lot of Scriptures with me. Then, the world will be really wonderful.

 

[Patriot]

Patriot, I agree with you with regards to performing a sinful action and to anything else within the identification with performing. But, God did not create us with the ability to sin; He created us straight, according to Ecclesiastes 7:29. However, He granted us with freewill and, we misused our freewill to do evil.

Eh? If God didn't create man with the ability to sin, then how did man accomplish it? Where did the ability come from?

Now, for energy, time and space, as I mentioned in the thread, God created matter, energy is an accident of matter

Assumption 1: You assume God did not create energy with matter
Assumption 2: You assume energy is an "accident"
Assumption 3: You assume how man's science (physics) describes something is how it really is

time is the measurement of motion

Actually, God sets up the first measurement of time. He declares Day and Night (Genesis 1:3-5). In Genesis 1:14 God specifically states that the lights in the sky are to mark day and night as well as sacred times and days and years.

and space the measurement between matter and matter.

Do any kind of research on "is space empty" and you'll find countless articles describing different kinds of electromagnetic waves traveling in "space". Not to mention, photons and other particles of matter. Space is far from empty distance between matter (see assumption 3 above).

 

[Zephyr]

Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill.

I'm sorry, I don't rightly recall "man" creating Satan.

To clarify... I'm not saying that God created sin in Satan, but that Satan rebelled... thus sinned against God. And he ain't no man.

 

[ewoksrule]

No, everything that God has created, behold it is good! Only in the first chapter of Genesis, this expression is repeated seven times. Anything natural is part of the universe. It becomes a curse or tragedy only if there are casualties, which man is responsible for, either for being on the wrong place at the wrong time or for not having applied his potential to learn how to control the works of nature.

But in Genesis God permanently cursed the ground and cursed the snake. The curse had to come from Him didn't it? Man and Woman were cursed as well, but it does not seem to be directly from God, more as a casual effect.

 

[Ben Masada]

I'm sorry, I don't rightly recall "man" creating Satan.

To clarify... I'm not saying that God created sin in Satan, but that Satan rebelled... thus sinned against God. And he ain't no man.

Zephyr, Satan does not exist. Satan is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man as a result of his ill use of freewill. God is absolutely One and Incorporeal at that. An eternal Spirit, as Jesus himself declared in John
4:24. And you are right. Man did not create Satan and neither did God.

But in Genesis God permanently cursed the ground and cursed the snake. The curse had to come from Him didn't it? Man and Woman were cursed as well, but it does not seem to be directly from God, more as a casual effect.

Ewoksrule, your views seem to reflect too anthropomorphic a perception of God, as if God were like a man with human attributes. Besides, the whole account of Creation in Genesis is an allegory which must be interpreted metaphorically. So, claims Moses Maimonides in his opus prima "The Guide for the Perplexed." And it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Odale]

The Bible is full of anthropomorphisms, many of them are in relation to God.

What Bible are you reading from? It must be one that God didn't create!

 

[Abba San]

Do not worry Abba San, if your sweet tooth is for Scriptural references, you will learn a lot of Scriptures with me. Then, the world will be really wonderful.

Sorry, Ben, I learn my scripture from the Bible - and certainly not from any one who would say:

Besides, the whole account of Creation in Genesis is an allegory which must be interpreted metaphorically.

Apologetics is simply not much fun to me. I shy away from futile discussions - but there are plenty of people on this forum who enjoy it and do a good job.

 

[Ben Masada]

Eh? If God didn't create man with the ability to sin, then how did man accomplish it? Where did the ability come from?

Man's freewill. Patriot, we have freewill to do anything we please. Some use it for good and some to perform evil acts. That's where the ability to sin comes from. We can choose to transgress the laws or not to. It's all up to our freewill. We have only to be aware of the consequences.

Assumption 1: You assume God did not create energy with matter.

That's not assumption. It's Logic. God created matter, and matter reacts to cause energy.

Assumption 2: You assume energy is an "accident".

Yes, if the word "accident" is the problem here, let us say by-product of matter.

Assumption 3: You assume how man's science (physics) describes something is how it really is.

No Patriot, I am not reasoning here according to man's science but Logic.

Actually, God sets up the first measurement of time. He declares Day and Night (Genesis 1:3-5). In Genesis 1:14 God specifically states that the lights in the sky are to mark day and night as well as sacred times and days and years.

Absolutely not, man does it. God has nothing to do with time. God is eternal. There is no time in eternity. Man measured the time of duration for the day and for the night, according to the motion of the celestial bodies. That's why I said that time is an accident or by-product of motion. Besides, the Scriptures were written in the language of man. One must go metaphorical with writings attributed to God, in order to understand the real meaning of the letter. Most mistakes of religions is that they are too literallists and anthropomorphists.

Do any kind of research on "is space empty" and you'll find countless articles describing different kinds of electromagnetic waves traveling in "space". Not to mention, photons and other particles of matter. Space is far from empty distance between matter (see assumption 3 above).

You are referring to space in the macro. There is space also in the mycro. Even between electrons in an atom. Any distance between a particle of matter and another is defined as space. Photons are not particles of matter but of energy. That's how X-rays works by photon energy being shot from cathode to anode in the course of a vacuum, where no matter is present.

Sorry, Ben, I learn my scripture from the Bible - and certainly not from any one who would say:



Apologetics is simply not much fun to me. I shy away from futile discussions - but there are plenty of people on this forum who enjoy it and do a good job.

Abba San, there is not learning in the tit-tattering of common beliefs. The word is controversy. That's where learning is. No wonder Judaism has such a vast and rich wealth of Theology: From the controversial Biblical arguments between Shamai and Hillel.

The Bible is full of anthropomorphisms, many of them are in relation to God.

What Bible are you reading from? It must be one that God didn't create!

You are absolutely right. Most the Bible, except for the historical books, is full of anthropomorphism, and most of them with relation to God. And preachers wanted it to stay that way. It becomes easier to mislead the simple ones into sticking to the church and keep feeding them with their fat living making. The Bible I have been reading from, is the same. Only that I see beyond the letter of man' language as I am Philosophically trained to apply the macro glasses of metaphorical interpretation.

 

[Tek7]

Moderator's note: Ben Masada: Please start using the forums' Multi-Quote feature by clicking the button immediately to the right of the Quote button for the posts you wish to quote then click Post Reply.

 

[Patriot]

Man's freewill. Patriot, we have freewill to do anything we please. Some use it for good and some to perform evil acts. That's where the ability to sin comes from. We can choose to transgress the laws or not to. It's all up to our freewill. We have only to be aware of the consequences.

Odd. Where did man's "freewill" come from?

That's not assumption. It's Logic. God created matter, and matter reacts to cause energy.

Great! Since it's not an assumption I will await your reference where it says that God only created matter and nothing else. Remember, by your own rules you cannot use Genesis as literal.

No Patriot, I am not reasoning here according to man's science but Logic.

Your logic leans heavily on science. Without science you wouldn't separate matter and energy. You wouldn't differentiate between macro and micro space (whatever that means). Without man's science, you have no argument.

Absolutely not, man does it. God has nothing to do with time. God is eternal. There is no time in eternity. Man measured the time of duration for the day and for the night, according to the motion of the celestial bodies. That's why I said that time is an accident or by-product of motion. Besides, the Scriptures were written in the language of man. One must go metaphorical with writings attributed to God, in order to understand the real meaning of the letter. Most mistakes of religions is that they are too literallists and anthropomorphists.

Scriptures were written in the language of man by God (through men) who created man, therefore I think it is safe to assume that God would know how to describe what He did in man's language. Or are you claiming that God cannot translate what he did into mere mortal's language? Keep in mind, he doesn't describe the mechanics of creating something from nothing (other than using the spoken word), but he is describing why he created it.

And I'll need more than just you telling me that I'm wrong to stop interpreting Genesis as literal.

You are referring to space in the macro. There is space also in the mycro. Even between electrons in an atom. Any distance between a particle of matter and another is defined as space. Photons are not particles of matter but of energy. That's how X-rays works by photon energy being shot from cathode to anode in the course of a vacuum, where no matter is present.

So says man's science. Is it right? I don't know. Do you know for sure?

The Bible I have been reading from, is the same. Only that I see beyond the letter of man' language as I am Philosophically trained to apply the macro glasses of metaphorical interpretation.

So you would claim that one cannot interpret the Bible correctly without the advantage of your training?

 

[ewoksrule]

Man's freewill. Patriot, we have freewill to do anything we please. Some use it for good and some to perform evil acts. That's where the ability to sin comes from. We can choose to transgress the laws or not to. It's all up to our freewill. We have only to be aware of the consequences.

I disagree. Man does not have free will. The Bible states that we are either slaves to Satan or slaves to Righteousness. Either way our will is certainly not free.

I would say that we have free agency to make decisions apart from coercion.

 

[Durruck]

I think that's the essence of free will. In every decision we face, we have the option to serve one of two masters. Righteousness has one set of related options, rooted in loving God and others. Sin has a whole lot of options, generally rooted in loving yourself. You're free to choose whichever option you want.

 

[nattyg]

Man's freewill. Patriot, we have freewill to do anything we please. Some use it for good and some to perform evil acts. That's where the ability to sin comes from. We can choose to transgress the laws or not to. It's all up to our freewill. We have only to be aware of the consequences.

L2TransitiveLaw.

That's not assumption. It's Logic. God created matter, and matter reacts to cause energy.

This statement demonstrates a very naive understanding of physics. So let's throw out "logic" as being an argument here...

No Patriot, I am not reasoning here according to man's science but one man's uninformed Logic.

Fixt.

One must go metaphorical with writings attributed to God, in order to understand the real meaning of the letter. Most mistakes of religions is that they are too literallists and anthropomorphists.

Spoken as someone who must discard what's written in the Bible to make their own lives more convenient.

You are referring to space in the macro. There is space also in the mycro. Even between electrons in an atom. Any distance between a particle of matter and another is defined as space. Photons are not particles of matter but of energy. That's how X-rays works by photon energy being shot from cathode to anode in the course of a vacuum, where no matter is present.

Again...you show a very poor understanding of physics. Space is not a distance in any way, shape or form.

 

[Lloren]

I think that's the essence of free will. In every decision we face, we have the option to serve one of two masters. Righteousness has one set of related options, rooted in loving God and others. Sin has a whole lot of options, generally rooted in loving yourself. You're free to choose whichever option you want.

I'll bite, but I shouldn't. This would imply that man COULD wholly be righteous and in RIGHT standing with God because he has the capacity to choose the option. The Bible doesn't teach this. We have the illusion of option, but often both of them are sin. We are enslaved to sin without Christ.


By God's redemption we now have His Spirit which enables us now to choose righteousness, but our flesh and will are yet in bondage to the body of sin (see Romans 7)