Dark Virtue
New Member
This is another topic on which Christians disagree.
Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, what is your biblical support for it?
As an objective individual examining Christianity, I don't understand why Christians believe in it (I did not as a Christian).
There's no biblical support for the Trinity, the verses that allude to it are pretty vague. Biblical scholars believe that Matthew 28:19, which says, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" was a later addition (when compared to the earlier Markian version). Evidence to support this includes: Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and The "Great Commission" found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15.
The other reference in I John 5:7 also looks like a later addition, "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". Bible Gateway.com includes this footnote, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)"
So where is the biblical support for the Trinity?
It looks like the origin for the Trinity began with Constantine and the Council of Nicea. Once the "official" church decided on the Trinity, they enforced it harshly. Speaking against it usually resulted in death.
Even Islam disagrees, "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)
Keep in mind that the early Christians did NOT believe in the idea of the Trinity. As Alvan Lamson wrote, " . . . The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin."
This from Harold Brown, "It is a simple fact and an undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian Faith – such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the nature of Christ – were not present in a full and self-defined generally accepted form until the fourth and fifth centuries. If they are essential today – as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert – it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth century. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?"
A few quotes to ponder:
Thomas Jefferson sums it up nicely
My question, simply, is that if you believe in the Trinity, what is the biblical basis for your belief?
Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, what is your biblical support for it?
As an objective individual examining Christianity, I don't understand why Christians believe in it (I did not as a Christian).
There's no biblical support for the Trinity, the verses that allude to it are pretty vague. Biblical scholars believe that Matthew 28:19, which says, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" was a later addition (when compared to the earlier Markian version). Evidence to support this includes: Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and The "Great Commission" found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15.
The other reference in I John 5:7 also looks like a later addition, "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". Bible Gateway.com includes this footnote, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)"
So where is the biblical support for the Trinity?
It looks like the origin for the Trinity began with Constantine and the Council of Nicea. Once the "official" church decided on the Trinity, they enforced it harshly. Speaking against it usually resulted in death.
Even Islam disagrees, "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)
Keep in mind that the early Christians did NOT believe in the idea of the Trinity. As Alvan Lamson wrote, " . . . The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin."
This from Harold Brown, "It is a simple fact and an undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian Faith – such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the nature of Christ – were not present in a full and self-defined generally accepted form until the fourth and fifth centuries. If they are essential today – as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert – it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth century. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?"
A few quotes to ponder:
Thomas Jefferson sums it up nicely
My question, simply, is that if you believe in the Trinity, what is the biblical basis for your belief?
.![[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff](/forums/data/avatars/m/1/1206.jpg?1442680067){kind=avatar}
