The Perfection of Mary

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Nov. 08 2003,10:43)]

Quote[/b] ]You do have proof of the "Twenty Page Letter" -- it is the Book of Acts.  It comes right after Luke and before the letter of Paul in the New Testament.

Please give me the verses that speak of this. In the begining of the Book he was a murderer. But then her converted.

Messeur,

The Book of Acts is a short enough Book for one that purports to tell Protestants everything they would ever need to know about the Teachings and Doctrines of the Church. Read it.

You really haven't shown me enough good will for me to sit and research verses for you.

 

[Guest]

leo the very reason you can be supposed to be a christian is because you can research and offer up scripture for proof.
FAILURE TO DO THIS IS GROUNDS FOR DISMISSAL.
You will not be taken seriously in any SPIRITUAL THING.
So for the sake of mrpopdrinker, get off your  rear end and go do some necessary research.
For for the absence of providing such proof, you risk being considered as insane.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Nov. 08 2003,12:34)]Why do you insist on calling Mary, Queen of Heaven?  I also find it interesting that you sub-titled this thread, yes it is worship.

Interesting article.

Seems, Queen of Heaven is a very old term, used by Pagans.  Especially in reference to a Goddess:  The great goddess of Babylonia, Virgin Mother of Babylon.

Searching further, I find numerous references to a Goddess named Mary, with the title Queen of Heaven, in Pagan circles.

I've also found many new world movements cite worshiping the Goddess Mary, Queen of Heaven.

There seems to be a massive dose of paganism in this worshiping of Mary.

So, is it that Paganism borrowed from the Catholics?  Or is it the Catholics that borrowed from Pagans?

If you find that other Mystical Religions recognize the Existence of Mary, the Highest Creature in Creation, then there is a good enough explanation. She Exists.

The Conversion of Europe, though owing much to the physical work of the Apostles, was largely accomplished through the Intercession of Our Lady who in fact did appear to the Pagans with instructions for them to convert their Pagan Temples to Christian Service.

Did Mary exist before Her Marian Incarnation as The Mother of Jesus Christ? Interesting question. As you indicate, the Babylonians and the Hindus perceived a Feminine Created Entity between The Male God Creator Principal and the World. The Greeks had Diana the Virgin Huntress -- a Mary Archetype.

We need not necessarily be afraid of Non-Judaic Tradition. Remember, that Christ was seen as not only the Promised One to the Jews, but the Visit of the Three Kings of the East show that Christ was equally the Promised King of King to them also. Mary received them graciously then, and receives them graciously now.

I quick study of the Marian Apparitions show readily enough Our Lady's Christian Orientation. She often is seen wearing crosses or crucifixes or seen carrying a Rosary, from which is always suspended a Crucifix. Sometimes She is seen in the Religious Habit of a Carmelite Nun. When Paul was on his murder rampage, Our Lady had been forced to flee Jerusalem, and the Acsetic Monks of Mount Carmel had shown Her hospitality and Protection, and so She blessed them that they would exist until the end of time. When the Crusaders arrived a thousand years later, this Order of Ascetic Monks were still there, and they worshiped in the room where Our Lady had stayed -- turning it into a little Chapel. This Order of Monks was granted membership into the Catholic Church. The Carmelite Order is technically older than the Church itself, holding as its Founder the Prophet Elijah.

Our Lady was Coronated Queen of Heaven shortly after Her bodily Assumption into Heaven. Note, that as famous as Our Lady was in Her lifetime, there is no Tomb, since there was no Body -- She had been taken physically up into Heaven, as Christ had been, and as Elijah had been.

 

[LionOfJudah]

Mary is not the highest creature in creation Man is, Adam was. God even said so, i think if Mary was, when she was born, He would of said "it is Good" like He did with adam.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (adelpit346 @ Nov. 08 2003,4:50)]leo the very reason you can be supposed to be a christian is because you can research and offer up scripture for proof.
FAILURE TO DO THIS IS GROUNDS FOR DISMISSAL.
You will not be taken seriously in any SPIRITUAL THING.
So for the sake of mrpopdrinker, get off your  rear end and go do some necessary research.
For for the absence of providing such proof, you risk  being considered as insane.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

Dear Adelphit,

The "everything needs a verse" mentality is Protestant.

The WORD OF GOD, during that period of World History before the Printing Press, was embodied in ORAL TRANSMISSION -- it was THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The arbitrary renunciation of these TEACHINGS, by the Protestants is a remarkable piece of heresy. You idolize the Published Book of the Catholic Church while rejecting the Oral Teachings. Your Rational is that The Oral Teachings deemphasize the Paulian Contrabution and are Gospel driven. So you reject it, so that you may be entirely Paulian.

Anyway, a Catholic has no duties or obligations to base his entire belief system upon the Written Word. We have Our Teachings, just as valid as the Written Word, and will not reject them, even if it would give Satan infinite delight.

Catholics also have the wealth of Divine Revelation afforded by the Lives of the Saints and the recorded messages of Our Lady.

In this regards, the skepticism of the Protestant is not different from the skepticism of the Atheist, except that an Atheist will be converted if he may be convinced, but a Protestant believes that it is a tenet of his belief that he will not believe. Your Satanic Doctrines blind you to the Truth.

 

[LionOfJudah]

but it was written down and we have the scrolls and other sources that they where written on, maybe not all of them, but we do have alot of them, when i say we i mean Mankind.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Nov. 08 2003,5:06)]Mary is not the highest creature in creation Man is, Adam was. God even said so, i think if Mary was, when she was born, He would of said "it is Good" like He did with adam.

Dear Lion,

Adam sinned. Adam was cast down.

But before Adam sinned, the procreative element was snatched from him by the Angel of God. This Holy Element was passed down through the Patriarchs and was placed by Zachariah into Anne to Create Mary Immaculately. She became THE NEW EVE.

That Makes Her transcendent of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had their chance, and blew it, and brought upon all the rest of us the Curse of Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception circumvented Original Sin for Mary, and I am quite convinced that Mary was in fact a semi-Spiritual Being -- that Her Virginity was in fact Organic -- that She had no typically human genitalia.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Nov. 08 2003,5:17)]but it was written down and we have the scrolls and other sources that they where written on, maybe not all of them, but we do have alot of them, when i say we i mean Mankind.

Scrolls of what? To what are you referring, please?

 

[LionOfJudah]

where does it mention procreative element and Zachrirah placing it in marys mom, i mean if i remember right Zach lived long before mary did.

 

[Guest]

The first man adam is NOT the highest thing in creation little ones, but the LAST ADAM(JESUS) IS. AMEN AMEN AMEN.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[4t0p]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,9:46)]I recently read a "How to be a Catholic book" for a correspondance course, written by some American Priest.  He actually comes out and says that it is 'the opinion' of the Bishops that the Doctrine of Infallibility also covers Episcopal Councils.  I'm not kidding.  They actually want to suppose that their political cavils -- their pedophile coverups -- should be covered by Infallibility.

What bishops? I'd like some names and dioceses(sp?) ~ and good point it is the opinion of an American Preist, I have opinions too and so do you that doesn't make it true, so let's stick to what's actually the truth and that is currently the councils aren't covered under the infallibility doctrine only those two statements are

kthnx again

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Nov. 08 2003,7:02)]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,9:46)]I recently read a "How to be a Catholic book" for a correspondance course, written by some American Priest.  He actually comes out and says that it is 'the opinion' of the Bishops that the Doctrine of Infallibility also covers Episcopal Councils.  I'm not kidding.  They actually want to suppose that their political cavils -- their pedophile coverups -- should be covered by Infallibility.

What bishops? I'd like some names and dioceses(sp?) ~ and good point it is the opinion of an American Preist, I have opinions too and so do you that doesn't make it true, so let's stick to what's actually the truth and that is currently the councils aren't covered under the infallibility doctrine only those two statements are

kthnx again

Dear 4top,

You presume to tell me what to do. Hmmm. What makes you outrank me. Am I not older than you. You should have more respect then to push and shove.

No, I don't need to have absolute proof in order to vent my suspicions. Anecdotal support is sufficient. The Bishops would love the cover of everyone holding their tongue during their malfaisance.

Caesar had said that "Caesars wife must be above suspicion". What is good enough for Caesar should be good enough for God's expectations of His own Bishops -- they must be above Suspicion. Obviously, they are not. Popes have even suspected the Bishops.

In Vatican II it was the Bishops who sold out the Cause of Our Lady -- to declare Her Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of All Grace and Advocate. they thought it impolitic while they endeavored an ecumenical sellout to the Protestant World Powers. So, really, whenever I see a Bishop it is all I can do not to knock the silly hat off his head.

Now, if they don't like the Catholic laity coming on the Web to vent their displeasure, then maybe they should begin to act more responsibily.

If it was up to me, I'd pull them all. I frankly don't understand how Bishops are promoted. It seems the worse people get the job. I'd send them off to the lowest slots in the Diocese -- hearing confessions at five in the morning -- and I'd take the lowest priests that have been passed by their entire lives, and they'd be my Bishops. We may have some inefficiencies due to administrative naivete but it would clean out all the Secret Masons and the Prot Sympathizers.

 

[Avesther]

Wow Leo, I am very, very impressed. Your answer to my challange was very, well, Roman.

Take it as you wish.

 

[Kidan]

Hmm...let's look ast some interesting scriptures concerning this, and then I'll go on about some specific points I've noticed within this thread.

First off on worship of any but God

Quote[/b] ]Rev 22:8  I, John, heard and saw these things. When I had heard and seen them, I bowed down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things.
Rev 22:9  But he told me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you, your brothers the prophets, and those who keep the words in this book. Worship God!"

Secondly, Why we don't worship as pagan worship

Quote[/b] ]Deu 12:29  When Jehovah thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest in to dispossess them, and thou dispossessest them, and dwellest in their land;
Deu 12:30  take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31  Thou shalt not do so unto Jehovah thy God: for every abomination to Jehovah, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12:32  What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

and finally on why we don't mix pagan worship with worshpi of God

Quote[/b] ]1Ki 12:26  And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now will the kingdom return to the house of David:
1Ki 12:27  if this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem, then will the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me, and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.
1Ki 12:28  Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold; and he said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
1Ki 12:29  And he set the one in Beth-el, and the other put he in Dan.
1Ki 12:30  And this thing became a sin; for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
1Ki 12:31  And he made houses of high places, and made priests from among all the people, that were not of the sons of Levi.
1Ki 12:32  And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he went up unto the altar; so did he in Beth-el, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Beth-el the priests of the high places that he had made.
1Ki 12:33  And he went up unto the altar which he had made in Beth-el on the fifteenth day in the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart: and he ordained a feast for the children of Israel, and went up unto the altar, to burn incense.

And do note that these are OT scriptures, and we are still under the Law,  and John from the NT, since as always I'm aware of your hatred of God's chosen apostle to  the gentiles.

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,9:55)]All the Important Stuff was orally transmitted.

Actually,  most of the stuff was written down.  There are a  couple examples of OT scrolls, and a couple letters from the NT in existance still.  Maybe the stuff that was orally transmitted wasn't really that important, or more accurately just wrong.


now, how you are protraying Mary as a goddess, and basically perfect, and having control over Christ, I do believe this particular entity (which has  no true relation to the mother of Christ) can be found  in Revelations, except you got the chapter wrong, you should be looking at  chapter 17 for a portrayal of what you're discussing.

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,7:31)]What makes you outrank me.  Am I not older than you.  You should have more respect then to push and shove.

Yet, 4top is doing right.  We are to search the scriptures and question those who are spreading false doctrines.  If  I EVER make an outrageous claim, either on this board, or in the church class  I teach, I EXPECT people to question me, and at no time would I complain about outranking someone.

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,7:31)]No, I don't need to have absolute proof in order to vent my suspicions.  Anecdotal support is sufficient.

 Ahh, so now we know from whence your  false doctrines come from.  Apparently you  believe whatever someone randomly tells you.  I have ample anecdotal support that the most dangerous element known to mankind is oxygen, such as statistically it's 100% fatal.  Yet is oxygen truly a dangerous element?

There is a difference from anecdotal support and true support.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Nov. 08 2003,8:16)]Wow Leo, I am very, very impressed.  Your answer to my challange was very, well, Roman.

Take it as you wish.

Why, Thank you! That is so kind of you to say so.

I had asked myself to be patient with people this weekend and not be so easily annoyed, and so when I saw your question which shaded Our Lady with Paganism, I thought to treat it in the Utmost Good Faith, and just hope you wouldn't come back to beat me over the head with my Answers.

And you didn't!

I am so grateful that tears are coming to my eyes.

 

[Avesther]

Leo, I am glad to see you took it positively.

In all honesty, I came to a small understanding in the last few days.  And that is, it is not my job to change a heart.  A heart can only change through the Holy Spirit.  So, I don't prupose to convert you to the "other side."  Rather, challange your ideas.  And irregardless of your answer, so long as you gave it honestly, leave it as it.

To continue to argue a point over and over and over again is pointless (IMO) as it more often then not builds walls, not roads.

Its not my job to beat you over the head becasue of an answer you give.  If how you have aligned your faith (or me for that matter) is not what Jesus wanted, the Holy Spirit will convicted us and cause us to come to change on an individual and personal basis.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,5:45)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Nov. 08 2003,10:43)]

Quote[/b] ]You do have proof of the "Twenty Page Letter" -- it is the Book of Acts.  It comes right after Luke and before the letter of Paul in the New Testament.

Please give me the verses that speak of this. In the begining of the Book he was a murderer. But then her converted.

Messeur,

The Book of Acts is a short enough Book for one that purports to tell Protestants everything they would ever need to know about the Teachings and Doctrines of the Church.  Read it.

You really haven't shown me enough good will for me to sit and research verses for you.

Well I am at my sisters right now and dont have my Bible with me so I cant read it right now. However from what I have read it speaks of how God changed his life and converted him to be a new man to do somthing great. So maby you have stuck your foot in your mouth?

 

[Guest]

WE are not currently UNDER THE LAW.
IT has been set aside until THE FATHER COMES DOWN WITH NEW JERUSALEM.
At that moment HE RE-ESTABLISHES THE LAW AND THEN PLACES JESUS AND MAN UNDER HIMSELF. AMEN
We are currently in GRACE. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[4t0p]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 08 2003,7:31)]  You presume to tell me what to do.  Hmmm.  What makes you outrank me.  Am I not older than you.  You should have more respect then to push and shove.

I don't understand what this ranking that you're talking about is, I do have respect for my elders and I respect your beliefs I just think that you formed them very poorly

Quote[/b] ] In Vatican II it was the Bishops who sold out the Cause of Our Lady -- to declare Her Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of All Grace and Advocate. they thought it impolitic while they endeavored an ecumenical sellout to the Protestant World Powers. So, really, whenever I see a Bishop it is all I can do not to knock the silly hat off his head.

Listening to this nonsense about Protestant World Powers is almost had hard as listening to Hilary Clinton talk about the vast right wing conspiracy that was set on Bill several years ago

Quote[/b] ] I frankly don't understand how Bishops are promoted. It seems the worse people get the job.

Perhaps, as I've advised, you should look into the Church which you claim to be a part of and celebrate the faith instead of coming on the board complaining about Protestants all the time

Quote[/b] ]I'd send them off to the lowest slots in the Diocese -- hearing confessions at five in the morning

Hardly the lowest jobs as Confessions are a backbone of the faith, (to the Protestants basically Leo is saying that the role of something such as Salvation is lowest job of the Church) I'd like to know what you think the highest jobs of the faith are? Are they slaying Protestants in mass numbers for their attempts to poison the Church?

Quote[/b] ]We may have some inefficiencies due to administrative naivete but it would clean out all the Secret Masons and the Prot Sympathizers.

Who is we? I have yet failed to see which we you are a part of, is it the Catholic chuch? I don't think so as you seem not to know anything about it ... Please stop spamming the message board with this nonsense under the guise of Catholic beliefs, they are not the beliefs of Catholics they are YOUR beliefs as a person, please draw line and stop trying to represent the Catholic church on this board if this is the way you are going to attempt to do it.

 

[mpty]

Quote[/b] ]Well I am at my sisters right now and dont have my Bible with me so I cant read it right now.

If you have access to the internet, you can read it online... right? Er...