The End Times

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 23 2004,9:59)]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Aug. 22 2004,6:49)]Freedom of thought is humanity's greatest gift, we merely exercise it and suggest that what is accepted as truth by much of society may not be as 'true' as is believed.

I wonder, from whom is this greatest gift, that you are exercising?

From god of course. But then, what is god? And why does the 'gift' have to be from something or someone, in the traditional sense?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Cuting and pasting someone elses thoughts here does not equate to forming opinions independantly. We all make our own decisions but it is based on the information we gather from those that have come before us. Whether it be the Bible, Koran, or Stephen Hawkins, we do not soley rely on our own intellect for what we believe. That being said, Any of us who question the traditions of this world are "free thinkers". Any of us who re-evaluate our opinions and do not take what we are told as hard proof are "free thinkers". You can put anything you want into that mold but the facts still remain the same: No information we bring here is new information. It is all in some way someone elses regurgitated thoughts.

The information we bring here may not be "new" to the universe, but if someone here didn't know that bit of information before, then it is new to them. Personally I don't plan on stop learning any time soon. The question is, what are you going to do with the new information you receive?

Quote[/b] ]Depends on the translation. Do I think things have been misinterpreted? Yes.

How do you know what has been misinterpreted and what hasn't?

Quote[/b] ]You have to remember that the Bible was not a solid book until it was put together by the Catholic church. The letters did not have chapters, those were added. Breaks in what is being stated were implemented by man, but that does not change the message of salvation.

It's amazing how many people don't understand exactly how the Bible they hold in their hand came into being.

Quote[/b] ]It does not change the teachings of the prophets of the coming messiah.

Again, the point in questioning, is to know if the teachings are accurate and if those teachings can truly be attributed to the prophet they say they are. One misconception, one misunderstanding, one mistranslation does not change the message of the Bible. But add them up and the scales gradually tip. Want an example? Here's one I'm looking into now. Did you know that Lucifer is only mentioned ONCE in the whole Bible? And only in the KJV and NKJV. It's very possible that Lucifer is NOT Satan.

Quote[/b] ]A whole lot of things in the Bible can be proven by history. Its the things that cannot that must be taken in faith.

EH? That logic is only going 50% of the way. If a lot of things in the Bible can be proven by history, then why can't things be DISproven by History?

Quote[/b] ]There is no body of Christ. We do not fully understand the concept of the Trinity. We do not grasp how an Omnipotant God can give us free will. We as humans consistantly try to put God in our little box of how we think instead of trying to put ourselves in the way God might think.

Granted, we're guilty of putting God in our little box, because as Christians tell us, who are we to question God? We cannot, as finite beings, put our thought processes in God's light. Can YOU?

Quote[/b] ]I read the Bible for what it says and the message it teaches.

I have done that as well, enough so that I believe I understand what that message is. As a kid, didn't you ever take something apart to understand it how it works? A radio, a toy, whatever? That is precisely what I am doing, what many of us are doing.

Quote[/b] ]I pray to God to live a better life every day and to be an influence on my children for His kingdom. I search for answers to questions that I have. I have not found all the answers, but I do not discount the Bible.

I don't know about you, but I was taught the the Bible was a perfect book, the inerrant Word of God. That even though it has passed through the hands of man, that it exists perfectly. Upon honest research, I believe this not to be true. There are things that we have been led to believe that simply are not true. It's difficult to glean the truth from such a Frankenstein of a book.

Quote[/b] ]So much has gone on in the past 2 thousand years that I cannot fathom it all in only 27 years. God has touched my life and changed my life. I have seen His work. I have felt His presence. I cannot deny Him in my life. Not because I am blind, or because I am a lemming, but because it is what I understand

My life has changed as well due to this book we call the Bible. I however, deny Him. I don't believe in Him. I can't believe that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being can harbor such human feelings. God is the greatest hypocrite. I know, I know, who am I to question God? If you examine the nature of God you will see He is no different than Zeus or any other construct of Man's imagination.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Why do you seem aggravated because we don't like being called "atheist"?

Look at the definitions...

Atheist: one who believes that there is no deity

Freethinker: one that forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma

Both these definitions are from Merriam Webster.

As you can see, the Freethinker definition fits a bit more snugly, that's why I use it.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Why do you seem aggravated because we don't like being called "atheist"?

Look at the definitions...

Atheist: one who believes that there is no deity

Freethinker: one that forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma

Both these definitions are from Merriam Webster.

As you can see, the Freethinker definition fits a bit more snugly, that's why I use it.

I'm not aggrivated, my point is that anyone who questions anything they are taught is a free thinker. I don't just sit idly by and nod and listen to a pastor and take that as truth. I read, I research and I look into what stuff means. If I have a question I find what I can historically and the translation of the words used, and why it is used that way. I am a free thinker: The difference being, I only fall into the first part of your defintion, not the second.

Quote[/b] ]A whole lot of things in the Bible can be proven by history. Its the things that cannot that must be taken in faith.


EH? That logic is only going 50% of the way. If a lot of things in the Bible can be proven by history, then why can't things be DISproven by History?

What in history have you found to disprove the Bible? I havn't seen much of anything. Lay it out here if you have something.

Quote[/b] ]Depends on the translation. Do I think things have been misinterpreted? Yes.


How do you know what has been misinterpreted and what hasn't?

I use a Strongs Concordance. It isn't perfect but it helps a lot at defining what is being stated.

Quote[/b] ]There is no body of Christ. We do not fully understand the concept of the Trinity. We do not grasp how an Omnipotant God can give us free will. We as humans consistantly try to put God in our little box of how we think instead of trying to put ourselves in the way God might think.


Granted, we're guilty of putting God in our little box, because as Christians tell us, who are we to question God? We cannot, as finite beings, put our thought processes in God's light. Can YOU?

No, I cannot. But then again, I have no need to disprove He exists. What I don't understand I search for answers for. Can I find all the answers? No, not I have not, but that does not mean that I give up and throw it all away. I've not found anything that devistated about the Bible to bring about those feelings.

Quote[/b] ]Again, the point in questioning, is to know if the teachings are accurate and if those teachings can truly be attributed to the prophet they say they are. One misconception, one misunderstanding, one mistranslation does not change the message of the Bible. But add them up and the scales gradually tip. Want an example? Here's one I'm looking into now. Did you know that Lucifer is only mentioned ONCE in the whole Bible? And only in the KJV and NKJV. It's very possible that Lucifer is NOT Satan.

Here is a good article on that you might want to check out. Lucifer has fallen

Here is a quote from the first paragraph on the site:

Quote[/b] ]The name Lucifer is commonly associated with the prince of darkness; the adversary, Satan, a.k.a the Devil. Only in the last few decades has this association been challenged. The secular world and even many Christians will contend that Lucifer is a misnomer and a poor translation of scripture

Does a mistransation mean the Bible is wrong? No, I don't think so.

You and I are not much different. We both are searching for answers to questions about the Bible. The difference is, I have not given up and still hold to it as being true and holy. I seek information to prove; you seek it to disprove.

Quote[/b] ]My life has changed as well due to this book we call the Bible. I however, deny Him. I don't believe in Him. I can't believe that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being can harbor such human feelings. God is the greatest hypocrite.

lol, where do you come up with this? Where in the Bible has God shown Himself to be a hypocrite?

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

OY, this is another one of those threads that grows exponentially

Quote[/b] ]
I'm not aggrivated, my point is that anyone who questions anything they are taught is a free thinker. I don't just sit idly by and nod and listen to a pastor and take that as truth. I read, I research and I look into what stuff means. If I have a question I find what I can historically and the translation of the words used, and why it is used that way. I am a free thinker: The difference being, I only fall into the first part of your defintion, not the second.

Good, I don't want to be a source of aggravation, although I'm sure I am at times.

Quote[/b] ]What in history have you found to disprove the Bible? I havn't seen much of anything. Lay it out here if you have something.

HA! If only things were that easy. The point I was trying to make was that that knife cuts both ways. If history can back up the Bible, what does the lack of history say? You know as well as I do there is precious little outside of the Bible to back it up. I would be more than happy to discuss the historicity of the Bible with you in a thread unto itself, our space in this one is limited.

Quote[/b] ]I use a Strongs Concordance. It isn't perfect but it helps a lot at defining what is being stated.

I don't know if you're aware of biblegateway.com, it's a very good resource as well.

Quote[/b] ]No, I cannot. But then again, I have no need to disprove He exists. What I don't understand I search for answers for. Can I find all the answers? No, not I have not, but that does not mean that I give up and throw it all away. I've not found anything that devistated about the Bible to bring about those feelings.

But do you find the need to prove that He DOES exist? Granted, that's not possible. But here we both stand at a divergent path. You follow the path of Faith, I follow the path of Doubt.

Quote[/b] ]Here is a good article on that you might want to check out. Lucifer has fallen

Here is a quote from the first paragraph on the site:
Quote
The name Lucifer is commonly associated with the prince of darkness; the adversary, Satan, a.k.a the Devil. Only in the last few decades has this association been challenged. The secular world and even many Christians will contend that Lucifer is a misnomer and a poor translation of scripture

Thanks for the link, intersting read. Most intersting is when the author states, "After much study I have come to realize that there isn't conclusive Biblical evidence either way. I tend to side with many centuries of tradition but there are convincing arguments otherwise". This is what is so frustrating. According to the author, there is no clear way to believe, so he randomly picks one?

Here's an apologitic link for the other side: http://www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r9810q.htm

And here's an interesting one for you: http://www.godfire.net/Lucifer.html

Quote[/b] ]lol, where do you come up with this? Where in the Bible has God shown Himself to be a hypocrite?

God is Love. But God is Vengeful. He is Jealous and Furious. The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, yet he is the exact opposite at times. God is described as being, "not as man, that he should change his mind." But how many times in the Bible does he change his mind? God hates those who sow discord, yet God sows discord (Tower of Babel anyone?), yet God states he is not the Author of Confusion. God makes promises that are not kept (see Abraham). God says he does not test or tempt, yet he did so with Abraham and Moses. God doesn't want you to steal, but it's ok if it's in His name (see plundering of the Egyptians and various enemies of God). God doesn't want you to murder, unless, again, it's in His name. God is faithful, holy and good, but is responsible for all evil. God hates liars, yet causes people to lie.

So what else are we supposed to think?

 

[Avesther]

I love my son, I dislike what he does sometimes.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  

Quote[/b] ]God is faithful, holy and good, but is responsible for all evil.  

Exercising freewill is responsible for all evil. You are simply blaming a God you deny here, how about taking up some responsibility for your share?

 

[Avesther]

God is Love but God is Vengeful is not a contradiction of terms in that Vengence is part of Justice.

God has "changed" his mind on pursuing punishing those that have rebelled against him when they have turned to him. And by the same token, his justic and wraith is exacted upon those who do not change their minds.

Tower of Babel was beaten to death here a few months ago.

As for breaking any promise to Moses, it was because Moses took the power of God into his own hands for his own sake (which is likened to what the people did at Babel). I think it is a fitting punishment that God should lift his promise. My son doesn't blame me when I lay down the consequences for his mistakes, why are you blaming God for Moses mistakes.

As for stealing, the worst you could accuse God of is indian giving. If all things are of God, then to whom he gives it is of no matter to you.

God doesn't cause people to lie.

God doesn't tempt people to sin or test their ability to sin.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 24 2004,12:54)]I love my son, I dislike what he does sometimes.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  

Quote[/b] ]God is faithful, holy and good, but is responsible for all evil.  

Exercising freewill is responsible for all evil.  You are simply blaming a God you deny here, how about taking up some responsibility for your share?

I'm just telling you what the Bible says:

Quote[/b] ]Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]God is Love but God is Vengeful is not a contradiction of terms in that Vengence is part of Justice.

Can't Justice be issued without Vengeance?

Quote[/b] ]God has "changed" his mind on pursuing punishing those that have rebelled against him when they have turned to him.  And by the same token, his justic and wraith is exacted upon those who do not change their minds.

His Wrath is also inflicted upon those who are never given a choice.  Namely children.

As for changing his mind, some examples:
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Now, I'm not saying God doesn't have the right to change his mind, but you would think that with things of the magnitude shown above, He would be SURE about what He was doing.

Quote[/b] ]Tower of Babel was beaten to death here a few months ago.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of a previous thread.  I'll dig it up.

Quote[/b] ]As for breaking any promise to Moses, it was because Moses took the power of God into his own hands for his own sake (which is likened to what the people did at Babel).  I think it is a fitting punishment that God should lift his promise.  My son doesn't blame me when I lay down the consequences for his mistakes, why are you blaming God for Moses mistakes.

The statement I made about promises not kept I attributed to Abraham, not Moses.

Quote[/b] ]As for stealing, the worst you could accuse God of is indian giving.  If all things are of God, then to whom he gives it is of no matter to you.

Why continue with any discussion if you're going to rely on "God says so, so there" ?

Quote[/b] ]God doesn't cause people to lie.

1 Kings 22
21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD . 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Quote[/b] ]God doesn't tempt people to sin or test their ability to sin.

I believe I said, "God says he does not test or tempt".  I didn't say TO SIN.  God tempted Abraham and Moses, not to sin, but to TEST THEM.

But James 1:13 says "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt(test) anyone"

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]The statement I made about promises not kept I attributed to Abraham, not Moses.

What promise was this?

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Aug. 24 2004,3:10)]

Quote[/b] ]The statement I made about promises not kept I attributed to Abraham, not Moses.

What promise was this?

Cory

Genesis 17
8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Hebrews 11
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

 

[Avesther]

A promise not yet fullfilled is not a promise broken.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Gotta love interpretations!

And what about the rest of what I wrote? They don't rate any comments?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 24 2004,5:15)]And what about the rest of what I wrote?  They don't rate any comments?

Don't you hate it when people do that? Seems to happen a lot on this forum..it annoys me.

 

[Avesther]

I give your comment a 7.984 out of 10.

Are you here looking for acceptance of your anti-christian sediments?

 

[Dark Virtue]

::SIGH::

No.

What I was looking for was intelligent conversation.

I see I looked in the wrong location.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 24 2004,8:04)]I give your comment a 7.984 out of 10.

Are you here looking for acceptance of your anti-christian sediments?

His only crime was being logical. It's easier to label what we say as mere 'anti-christian' sentiment, but the path of least resistance is not always the best path.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I could have sworn that under the title of this forum it said, "For civilized discussion and civilized debate".

 

[CCGR]

things get heated here, happens on both sides, we're all human