Sunday School teacher fired for...being a woman?

[Jeshurun]

Let me just state for the record that I'm not interested in what this woman did or did not do and nor am I interested in what this ministers decision was for her.

This in not about whether a man or a woman can teach either so why bring that up here.

This is really none of my business nor anyone elses here either.

DV asked us what we thought about it and we all seem to be trailling off on some other topic with specuation that does not really pertain to what he asked.

This minister was given his authority by God to be a Pastor over his part of the body of Christ and so he let this woman go for whatever the reason and for us to comment and theorize about his decision is rediculous and not wise.

This is not our business and we should say no more pertaining to it.

Maybe someone should change the name of the "Religious Descussion Forum" to "Religious Gossip Forum".

 

[PapaToad]

Let me just state for the record that I'm not interested in what this woman did or did not do and nor am I interested in what this ministers decision was for her.

This in not about whether a man or a woman can teach either so why bring that up here.

This is really none of my business nor anyone elses here either.

DV asked us what we thought about it and we all seem to be trailling off on some other topic with specuation that does not really pertain to what he asked.

This minister was given his authority by God to be a Pastor over his part of the body of Christ and so he let this woman go for whatever the reason and for us to comment and theorize about his decision is rediculous and not wise.

This is not our business and we should say no more pertaining to it.

Maybe someone should change the name of the "Religious Descussion Forum" to "Religious Gossip Forum".

This post amused me, I actually giggled, but you do have a point. Though I think DV wanted to know why men are better suited for teaching than women and wanted your interpation of bibical backing that brings you to that decision.

Then again I have been wrong in the past

 

[Jeshurun]

This post amused me, I actually giggled, but you do have a point. Though I think DV wanted to know why men are better suited for teaching than women and wanted your interpation of bibical backing that brings you to that decision.

Then again I have been wrong in the past

It would seem DV was alluding to your second sentence.
However with all of his logic you would think that he would have clarified that then for all of us.

I see this topic being more about questioning a Pastors God given authority over his part of the body of Christ in whether he is making the right or wrong decisions within his part of the body of Christ.

Who am I that I should question/murmur/gossip about God's chosen authority?
However, if I did that though I would then be questioning God"s authority over all and that is rebellion against Him.

This is between God and that minister and that woman.
We as christians need to learn to mind our own business (MOOB).

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

That is what I stated earlier. I cannot say whether or not her being fired was appropriate action. I do not have enough facts.

God did give Pastors authority, the thing is, how do we know when they overstep it?

 

[Jeshurun]

That is what I stated earlier. I cannot say whether or not her being fired was appropriate action. I do not have enough facts.

God did give Pastors authority, the thing is, how do we know when they overstep it?

Thats easy watch what God does to them.
Here is just one example of overstepping God"s given authority-
Remember what happened to Aaron's sons when they overstepped their authority.(Lev.10:1-2)
Also lets remember what Jesus said in Matt. 7:16-20.
We will know them by their fruits.
But its like I said we need to mind our own business. This is God's business, He will take care of it and we need not worry about it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Men and women are created equal DV..

What I sugested from the word of God is not that they were not created equal..

But they were created with different roles..

The head of a men is Christ,
And the head of a woman is men..

So THAT Christ can be all in all

That's called splitting hairs. Gen 1:27 doesn't say anything about equality, you are reading something into that verse that isn't there. The Bible clearly shows that men and women are NOT equal.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It would seem DV was alluding to your second sentence.
However with all of his logic you would think that he would have clarified that then for all of us.

To address your point, I didn't feel there was a need to enforce such a rigid set of guidelines for this discussion. This topic goes far beyond this minister and his former employee and we are delving into those various areas. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, simply don't post.

Also, no one has participated in anything remotely resembling gossip in this thread.

 

[Zeena]

That's called splitting hairs. Gen 1:27 doesn't say anything about equality, you are reading something into that verse that isn't there. The Bible clearly shows that men and women are NOT equal.

Yea?

WHERE?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Yea?

WHERE?

Haven't I already pointed some out for you?

How many more do you need?

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

bullet "And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

 

[Zeena]

Quote:
"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

Ecclesiastes 12
11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd. 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

This is quoted from the last chapter in Ecclesiates..Chapter 12..There is no such chapter as 25 in the Canon of Scripture

 

[Dark Virtue]

This is quoted from the last chapter in Ecclesiates..Chapter 12..There is no such chapter as 25 in the Canon of Scripture

YOUR canon maybe

Does that mean you aren't going to address the point?

 

[Zeena]

Nowhere in those collected sayings (that ARE part of the Canon of Scripture) does it say woman is any less of a person than man..

There are different roles for both men and woman in society, albiet..
Some of which, if not taken with a grain of salt, and fire, may seem to be more than hierarchal to the disconcerting eye..

For instance..
My husband is the head of this household, if his head is Christ..
Now, if he were to refuse to wear that head, it would then be passed onto me, a WOMAN.. And if I should refuse to wear that hat God would send His messenger [2 Corinthians 12:7] before our very faces!

"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Mark 10:6
"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'

Adam was originally designed as the complete image of God..
Male AND female.. God has quite a few qualities men lack nowadays (albiet not in Christ), such as mercy [Mathew 12:7] and compassion [Mark 1:41]. Which were granted to woman as God formed her out of man..

But this is neither here nor there, for behold, the old has past, the new has come!

Galatians 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Corinthians 12 & 13
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

And now I will show you the most excellent way.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Again, would you mind actually responding to the verses I posted.

If they don't show a disparity in equalness, then what do they mean?

Let me ask this another way...are masters and slaves equal, or do they merely have different roles?

 

[Zeena]

Again, would you mind actually responding to the verses I posted.

If they don't show a disparity in equalness, then what do they mean?

Let me ask this another way...are masters and slaves equal, or do they merely have different roles?

Different roles

 

[Dark Virtue]

Different roles

So what's the difference between different roles and inequality? Anything? Nothing?

 

[Zeena]

So what's the difference between different roles and inequality? Anything? Nothing?

Just different roles.. But the Son of Man came to serve, and give His Life a ransom for many

Mark 10:41-45
When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

Ephesians 6
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.

John 13:16
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 15:20
Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

1 Peter 3:5-7
5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Just different roles.. But the Son of Man came to serve, and give His Life a ransom for many

Thanks, but that has nothing to do with the current discussion. Remember? Inequality between the sexes?

Let me try and put this into your terminology...are you saying that women have been given a different role than men...one that creates an inequality between the sexes? A role that is subservient to men?

 

[Zeena]

Thanks, but that has nothing to do with the current discussion. Remember? Inequality between the sexes?

Let me try and put this into your terminology...are you saying that women have been given a different role than men...one that creates an inequality between the sexes? A role that is subservient to men?

Man is from woman, even as woman is from man...

1 Corinthians 11:7-12
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Luke 1:26-49
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;40And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45And blessed is she that believed:for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48For He hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

 

[Genesis1315]

are you saying that women have been given a different role than men...one that creates an inequality between the sexes? A role that is subservient to men?

Yes
Genesis 3
16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sheesh, it took seven pages to get that simple answer?

It always struck me as odd why women are so eager to be Christian in light of the inequality.