State to Raise Tuition Costs by 77%

Odale said:
Yes - I would gladly pay more in the way of taxes than have my tuition raised by an absurd amount. Education is a necessity in my opinion and not simply an option.
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Awesome for you. Would you give me back the money I pay for you to get a break on education? Kinda funny...I "skipped" college and while I won't get in to specifics - make more than enough to state that it isn't remotely a necessity.

That you choose to engage in a profession that requires a degree is entirely your choice...not sure why I should subsidize it if it benefits you financially in the end :)
 
some under-performing programs must go and I am okay with that (to my knowledge I haven't said I am not okay with those moves).
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My apologies. I misread the group that you joined on Facebook.
 
I have to admit, I agree with Natty, too. There are plenty of career opportunities that don't require any post-secondary education. Many of them pay fairly well. I understand that nobody plans on working at McG's or Burger Jester the rest of their lives, but honest, hard-working people succeed and pull down reasonable salaries and benefits in those companies, too.

So the idea that I should have to pay for you to get advanced education is a little unsettling. We don't all get to be astronauts and doctors and supermodels like we wanted to be when we were kids. Subsidizing post-secondary education with (in some cases) no financial responsibility on the student makes them take it far less seriously. So you get people with no vested interest (besides time) changing majors 6 times, that really don't care how much taxpayer money is wasted on their partying, their indecision, or their carefree attitudes. The fact that every quarter, I had to secure my own funding... made me focus. Every quarter I had to figure out if I was keeping to the plan, if I was doing what I needed to do to get out. Every weekend, I had to assess whether my party or my future was more important. Basically, I had to grow up.

Taking away financial responsibility makes it a game. I'm not against loans, grants, or scholarships. I am against general taxation to extend high school another 4-6 years.
 
Durruck said:
I have to admit, I agree with Natty, too. There are plenty of career opportunities that don't require any post-secondary education. Many of them pay fairly well. I understand that nobody plans on working at McG's or Burger Jester the rest of their lives, but honest, hard-working people succeed and pull down reasonable salaries and benefits in those companies, too.
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Some would argue that the lowered tuition costs lowered the "value" of having a diploma. In effect it turned in a paper with little bargaining power because of the overabundance of college grads w/o jobs.
 
You have a great point Durruck - paying for people to screw around for another 4 to 6 years after high school is a big waste of money, I agree with that. Banks see it that way too. It is far easier to get a loan for graduate school than it is for undergrad because the banks know you will be more invested in your work and be able to pay it off as well.

I agree with you that citizens shouldn't pay for college students to screw around, but the reality is that if students screw around, then they lose the scholarships. In Georgia the minimum GPA for the HOPE Scholarship is 3.0 and you get evaluated every 30 credit hours (around once a school year). The Hope scholarship also stops covering you regardless of your GPA after 127 credit hours. So you can't screw around and you can't change your major 6 times because you'll lose that funding. Tennessee has a HOPE scholarship as well and a news article from late last year states that 50% of all incoming freshmen lost their scholarship (so they lowered the minimum required GPA from 3.0 to 2.75, heh).

What I want to do when I graduate is go into consulting (I/O Psychology specifically) which will eventually require me to get either a Masters in Applied Psychology or a Ph.D in Applied Psychology (I'll probably go for the Ph.D).

I know there are great opportunities for people who chose to not go to college. I have worked at a Ford Dealership for the past 5.5 years, few people there have educations past high school. One of my best friends is an electrician and he bought a house last year - all with no college education.

For some people, not having a college education is fine and they won't miss a beat, for other such as myself the same is not so.

I don't see a problem with helping pay for someone's education if they are going to use it. When I graduate I definitely wouldn't mind some of my taxes going toward other's education (think of how the US looks in comparison to other nations in the world too...). The way the system for the HOPE scholarship is set up makes it so that if you want to screw around and change your major 15 times you can, but you'll lose your funding. I can't imagine other systems being setup much differently than that.

Vibrokatana said:
Some would argue that the lowered tuition costs lowered the "value" of having a diploma. In effect it turned in a paper with little bargaining power because of the overabundance of college grads w/o jobs.
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I wouldn't argue that, though I can see a few exceptions.

How many people follow a school because they have a great English department versus their football team? Not many...

I argue that name and branding associated with a school is what pumps up schools tuition fees more so than educational programs - the more known you are means more people want to come to your school.

The exceptions I can think of would be like Harvard, Yale and Princeton.

I attend Kennesaw State University. No one would guess but KSU is the 3rd largest higher-education school in Georgia with almost 25,000 students.

Kennesaw also has one of the best MBA programs in the US (CEO Magazine, page 18).

To top it off we have no football team, so no one has heard of us (though we do have a division 1 basketball team... I think).
 
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Like my uncle (Harvard grad doctor, not that it matters to me) always teases my father that my father " Used to be a doctor, but decided to become a plumber to make more money"

And, I always liked the quote in Bruce Almight, " Some of the happiest people in the world, go home smelling to high heaven at the end of the day." Just cuz you don't make a lot of money doesn't mean you can't find happiness. I gave up studying for mechanical engineering to become a plumber over 5 yrs ago, and to this day I don't have one regret in that career move.
 
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you. 1 Thessalonians 4:11 (NIV)
 
I agree with a lot of sentiments here as far as education not being a necessity for many types of jobs, especially if you're willing to work hard. In many lines of work, it basically is a necessity...and if God is calling you there, then you need to go there.

That said, if God is calling you there...He'll get you what you need regardless of government help. Hmmm. :)
 
Abba San said:
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you. 1 Thessalonians 4:11 (NIV)
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I read this last night and it stuck me as out of place. I don't know the context in which this verse fits, but I find it hard to believe this context (this thread) is the correct one. I asked a professional in the field and they agree with me as well.

Perhaps there is another verse with a better fit :).
 
Check the post just before mine - Whon had mentioned...

Whon said:
And, I always liked the quote in Bruce Almight, " Some of the happiest people in the world, go home smelling to high heaven at the end of the day." Just cuz you don't make a lot of money doesn't mean you can't find happiness. I gave up studying for mechanical engineering to become a plumber over 5 yrs ago, and to this day I don't have one regret in that career move.
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That is the context for the verse - a very good fit - some of the happiest people live simple, quiet lives working with their hands. The rest of the passage goes on to say:

Then people who are not Christians will respect the way you live, and you will not need to depend on others. 1 Thessalonians 4:12 (NLT)

I happen to agree with you that in this day and age a college degree is almost mandatory for the careers that most young people desire. That is not to negate people who go into skilled labor apprenticeship programs or start their own businesses - but to get ahead in most professional fields you have to have the degree.

I happen to disagree with you that I should pay for people's education through higher taxes. I did my undergraduate work paying as I went and my graduate work half pay-as-you-go and half with student loans.

I'm curious what professional you spoke with that said the verse was out of context. In what field is s/he a professional?
 
This is a great thread!

I work in for-profit postsecondary education, so know wayyyy more about this stuff than I ever wanted to. And fervently believe that the education industry comes second only to health care as a flat-out messed-up-economics setup industry/endeavor. There seems to be an inverse correlation between how important an industry is to how well its economics work. Health care? Important but messed up. Education? Important but messed up. Military-industry complex? Important but messed up. Secondhand beany babies? Absolutely unimportant but a nearly perfect market thanks to eBay. Potions and flasks on WoW? Absolutely unimportant but a nearly perfect market thanks to the WoW AH.

1) Postsecondary education is funded through a combination of endowments (rich get richer), tuition (again, rich get richer), research dollars (established, prestigious schools attract the best professors which then get the most resarch grants ... again, unless you're in the game already its' tough to break in), and state funding that subsidizes the operating budget of state schools. Federal funding comes in directly through research grants but largely through financial aid directly to students: Title IV (which provides a TON of funding for at need students through a combination of loans and grants) and GI Bill and VA funding mostly. Anyhow if you're a rich school ... you're set. Unless your endowment had a large stake in Enron (like mine did ... sigh), you control your own destiny. If you're a school catering to less well-off students, you're largely getting Title IV money so you're also ok. Both GWB and Obama have materially increased the funding per student on these. But there's a catch ... no more than 90% of your funds received can be Title IV funds ... so if most of your students are disadvantaged then to stay compliant when more Title IV funds are available the only thing you can do is raise prices! But when we talk about Georgia public schools, or California public schools ... most of the students are too rich for Title IV. State institutional subsidies are what makes the difference.
3) Just Googling quickly ... UMass is $12k/year, Georgia is $6k per year (full-time, 2 semesters). Sure, New England has higher cost of living than Georgia ... but not 2x as much! Georgia's chosen to, and been able to, subdize the cost of education for awhile. But now there's no money in the state budget because all the banks in Georgia blew up. And when the state budget blows up (like in CA, GA, AZ, NV, etc) ... then so goes educational funding. What that and not tax increases? Because students have no lobbying group, because young people dont' vote, and so on. Yeah, it's stupid in the long term for a state ... but it's inevitable from a public policy perspective.
4) But the most delicious thing that's happened is that that low-tuition states are hiking their tuition drastically BECAUSE the federal government is increasing Title IV so much. Let's say that Congress increases available Stafford and Pell funds by $3k per year to $9K per year for a certain subset of students (which they've done in recent years). More money for students! Great! What could go wrong? If you're Massachussets and your tuition is $12K per year, great ... all of a sudden you've become a lot more affordable to a lot of disadvantaged students. But if you're Georgia ... your students don't need the extra $3K pear year so this extra federal money does nothing for you. Unless you increase prices! And if you increase tuition, that means for a bunch of students you're collecting an extra $3K that previously had to be funding by the state budget. By not hiking tuition, states are leaving potential federal dollars on the table. No state government wants to do that! And "too bad" for the middle class students who aren't eligible for that extra $3K of financial aid. It's ok, you're middle class, your parents can give up their daily lattes and pay for it, right (sarcasm intended, just in case you missed it).

So, we have the rich getting richer, and programs intended to help the disadvantaged instead setting off a chain of events that squeezes the middle class. Welcome to the 21st century!
 
Thanks, Gilga - helpful information. Once again, follow the money shows what is really going on.
 
The professional I spoke to has his masters in the subject and... he has already posted in this thread. :)

If he wants to he can give you his opinion whenever he feels like posting again.

I did some research of my own and as it turns out, that particular section of 1st Thessalonians is stating that people should go back to work and quit waiting on Jesus' second coming (hence the "...and you will not need to depend on others..." bit from 4:12 because they'll be doing their own work). It is simply saying go about your life and Jesus will get here when he gets here. There is no emphasis on what kind of work we should be doing (though thats not the context of the passage anyway).

Very nice post Gilga! A lot of that got me confused, heh.
 
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Odale - really - I was merely commenting on Whon's quote. I am sympathetic with your situation even if I disagree with your proposed solution.

As far as the Thessalonians passage goes - we can have that discussion in another thread - if you want to have it. I will say - you are correct that there is no emphasis on the kind of work we should be doing (nor was I trying to place any emphasis on the kind of work) - simply that we should be working.

The context for those two verses is set in 4:1, where Paul says, "...we instructed you how to live in order to please God." Be holy (vs 3-8), love each other (vs 9-10), and lead a quiet life (vs 11-12). Live like that and you are pleasing God. The closing bookend on the immediate context is, "...just as we told you..." in vs 11. Check with your friend on how he would outline chapter four and it would be something like what I just suggested, with a final element of looking to our future with the Lord with hope (vs 13-18).

I'm sure the Lord will work out the finances so you can get your education and pursue any line of work you desire. Psychology is a noble field. My undergraduate work was in psychology and social welfare. In fact, I worked in mental health for ten years before going into ministry. But that is another story for another time.

God bless you in your education. I'll be praying He will protect you and provide every step of the way.
 
Gilga said:
This is a great thread!

I work in for-profit postsecondary education, so know wayyyy more about this stuff than I ever wanted to. And fervently believe that the education industry comes second only to health care as a flat-out messed-up-economics setup industry/endeavor. There seems to be an inverse correlation between how important an industry is to how well its economics work. Health care? Important but messed up. Education? Important but messed up. Military-industry complex? Important but messed up. Secondhand beany babies? Absolutely unimportant but a nearly perfect market thanks to eBay. Potions and flasks on WoW? Absolutely unimportant but a nearly perfect market thanks to the WoW AH.

1) Postsecondary education is funded through a combination of endowments (rich get richer), tuition (again, rich get richer), research dollars (established, prestigious schools attract the best professors which then get the most resarch grants ... again, unless you're in the game already its' tough to break in), and state funding that subsidizes the operating budget of state schools. Federal funding comes in directly through research grants but largely through financial aid directly to students: Title IV (which provides a TON of funding for at need students through a combination of loans and grants) and GI Bill and VA funding mostly. Anyhow if you're a rich school ... you're set. Unless your endowment had a large stake in Enron (like mine did ... sigh), you control your own destiny. If you're a school catering to less well-off students, you're largely getting Title IV money so you're also ok. Both GWB and Obama have materially increased the funding per student on these. But there's a catch ... no more than 90% of your funds received can be Title IV funds ... so if most of your students are disadvantaged then to stay compliant when more Title IV funds are available the only thing you can do is raise prices! But when we talk about Georgia public schools, or California public schools ... most of the students are too rich for Title IV. State institutional subsidies are what makes the difference.
3) Just Googling quickly ... UMass is $12k/year, Georgia is $6k per year (full-time, 2 semesters). Sure, New England has higher cost of living than Georgia ... but not 2x as much! Georgia's chosen to, and been able to, subdize the cost of education for awhile. But now there's no money in the state budget because all the banks in Georgia blew up. And when the state budget blows up (like in CA, GA, AZ, NV, etc) ... then so goes educational funding. What that and not tax increases? Because students have no lobbying group, because young people dont' vote, and so on. Yeah, it's stupid in the long term for a state ... but it's inevitable from a public policy perspective.
4) But the most delicious thing that's happened is that that low-tuition states are hiking their tuition drastically BECAUSE the federal government is increasing Title IV so much. Let's say that Congress increases available Stafford and Pell funds by $3k per year to $9K per year for a certain subset of students (which they've done in recent years). More money for students! Great! What could go wrong? If you're Massachussets and your tuition is $12K per year, great ... all of a sudden you've become a lot more affordable to a lot of disadvantaged students. But if you're Georgia ... your students don't need the extra $3K pear year so this extra federal money does nothing for you. Unless you increase prices! And if you increase tuition, that means for a bunch of students you're collecting an extra $3K that previously had to be funding by the state budget. By not hiking tuition, states are leaving potential federal dollars on the table. No state government wants to do that! And "too bad" for the middle class students who aren't eligible for that extra $3K of financial aid. It's ok, you're middle class, your parents can give up their daily lattes and pay for it, right (sarcasm intended, just in case you missed it).

So, we have the rich getting richer, and programs intended to help the disadvantaged instead setting off a chain of events that squeezes the middle class. Welcome to the 21st century!
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I work at WSU as a IT and Marketing "specialist" and what your saying is all too true. for us its about $12k a semester, $24k a year to attend WSU and its pretty brutal but the funny thing is, they just created a dorm thats more like a high rise apartment complex.

The funny part of all this is, subsidized schooling makes the prices go up, which in my mind is the complete opposite of what should be happening and the real issue gets into why force the rich to pay more, then pay more to subsidize stuff, then raise costs so lower-middle class cant afford it anymore. its just silly.

I said it before but i think people need to realize that tuition is only a small fragment of what a university really does and doesnt have much bearing on the university as a whole. We just had all kinds of protests at WSU and the students are all up in arms but its like... dont you realize how small you are in the big picture of university finances?

An example of a university doing well in some forms in this regards is our rival, UW, who does tons of medical research and runs a hospital and makes a profit off of all their own research. we shows that WSU has alot to learn considering how well we are ranked in business, communication, veterinary, pharmacy and engineering.
 
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