Scottish Resistance is OP.

[Keero]

That is all.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

The Scottish Resistance really? I haven't used it since they nerfed it long ago hmmm.

I'm still wondering why the Shortstop does a 144 crit using only one of the four shots AT MIDDLE RANGE (I've also gotten a second 100 crit shot off once too O.O). It's not a problem on our crits disabled server but still.

 

[Grimbeorn]

Yeah, the short stop shoots with decent accuracy at a high rate and with normal reload speed. I really don't see any drawbacks to using it, but lots of advantages.

/wonders how long it will take for a shortstop nerf

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

This thread reminds me of our Huntsman talk earlier Darth. The thing I forgotten to mention about it is I've been a scout before and gotten behind a huntsman sniper, meleed him once, twice and before the third strike hits he turns around and headshots me point blank. I don't mind bullets not throwing off their aim, as it is a mid-range weapon, but if I am under their armpit hitting them it becomes annoying. Even point blank with the Ambassador you can't kill with one shot. I'd like them not to be able to notch the bow if I am pressing against them or something. Although, compared to the sniper rifle, the Huntsman is only good for those point blank shots or if the enemy is not paying attention at a distance :/.

Of course the greatest imbalance in TF2 is not a weapon but the hit detection XD.

 

[Tek7]

Yeah, the short stop shoots with decent accuracy at a high rate and with normal reload speed. I really don't see any drawbacks to using it, but lots of advantages.

/wonders how long it will take for a shortstop nerf

Likely never.

The Shortstop was originally intended to have a slowing effect on enemies, which was never actually added to the game (even when the description stated that it slowed enemies). That may be the only nerf it ever sees.

The stock scattergun may have a higher reload time, but has a wider spread--an attribute that has both advantages and disadvantages. You have to be quite accurate with the Shortstop and it's all but useless at long range. If a Scout is intending to go for the +25 HP set bonus, he has to give up the stock pistol in favor of the Mad Milk (which is a more useful item in theory than in practice).

"But the Shortstop is a blend between the scattergun and the pistol," you may say. Yes, but it lacks the key advantages of the pistol: A larger clip, greatly accelerated rate of fire, and greater long distance damage. But it's still unlikely that a Scout will carry the Shortstop and the stock pistol--especially if they have the Milkman hat and want that extra 25 HP.

So while the Shortstop may seem like a clear upgrade, it's still, in my opinion, a sidegrade. Having played Scout quite a bit since the Shortstop was introduced, I can attest to the disadvantages of the weapon as well as the advantages. Players getting killed by a given weapon tend to see only the advantages of said weapon (e.g. pre-nerf Natascha).

Also keep in mind that some players excel with an alternate weapon, making the alternate look like the obviously superior weapon. But another player may perform significantly better with the stock weapon. My preference for the stock Medigun over the Kritzkrieg and Keero's preference for the Axtinguisher over, well, anything else come to mind. (I would include Elihu's preference for the Gunslinger, but I think his primary motivation for selecting that weapon is the opportunity to shout "KNUCKLE SANDWICH" over voice chat every time he scores a melee kill.)

I would say we're past the "nerf window"for the Shortstop, but Valve waited several months (years?) to nerf the Natascha, so I could be wrong.

 

[Grimbeorn]

I guess the difference to me between the shortstop advantages and the scattergun advantages are what they do in the hands of a good player. The shortstop shoots faster and reloads faster with more accuracy. If you need to just barely damage an enemy at extreme range or need to hit multiple enemies closer, then the scattergun may be better.

The problem is that the shortstop allows the scout to become significantly better in areas where the scout is already strong - namely hit and run close range combat. The firing speed of the scattergun allows other classes a chance to compensate in close range and makes it so that the scout can't just run in, deliver a clip, and run out. The FAN only has two shots and isn't that accurate. The shortstop, on the other hand, shoots four shots at high speed and with a tight spread, allowing the scout to quickly wipe out almost anything. Yes, it requires better accuracy, but in the hands of good players that accuracy is to be expected. Thus if you run into a master of the shortstop you have much lower chance to survive in most cases than you would have if he was a master of the scattergun.

Obviously just my opinion.

 

[Tek7]

The problem is that the shortstop allows the scout to become significantly better in areas where the scout is already strong - namely hit and run close range combat. The firing speed of the scattergun allows other classes a chance to compensate in close range and makes it so that the scout can't just run in, deliver a clip, and run out. The FAN only has two shots and isn't that accurate. The shortstop, on the other hand, shoots four shots at high speed and with a tight spread, allowing the scout to quickly wipe out almost anything. Yes, it requires better accuracy, but in the hands of good players that accuracy is to be expected. Thus if you run into a master of the shortstop you have much lower chance to survive in most cases than you would have if he was a master of the scattergun.

I agree that the Shortstop does raise the skill ceiling for the Scout and I understand how that could be annoying; however, I don't see raising the skill ceiling as the same as introducing an imbalanced weapon.

I'm not saying that raising the skill ceiling is always a good idea. One of the reasons I prefer Quake 3 over Unreal Tournament 3 is that Q3 doesn't have dodge movement (double tap a movement key) or dodge jumping.

EDIT: But the main reason I prefer Q3 over UT3 is that the rocket launcher in Q3 actually fires where I aim it.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

In the game's developer commentary, pre-shortstop, they talk about giving the Scout a short range, high dps, long reload weapon because they wanted to encourage hit and run tactics. Prior to the Shortstop the Scout had to give up the mobility that is his defense to get close to do high dps. It's true point blank you'll still dps more with the Scattergun at start but the rate of fire on the Shortstop plus the fact you can do it from farther away and keep doing it means you will kill just as quick in the overall encounter and you don't have to close as much distance before doing it.

With fictional example times it's like...

The Scattergun: The closing time to killing range is 2 seconds and the kill costs you 1.

The Shortstop: The closing time to killing range 1 second and the kill costs you 2.

With the Shortstop you start firing earlier but take longer killing them. It important to note though even if it takes longer to kill in a point blank surprise situation it is still sufficient to kill most classes before they can react.

Exempting the crit situation (because a 144 crit at mid-range is crazy for the Scout) perhaps the Shortstop is not OP as much as it makes the Scattergun obsolete. I feel like there should be a reason to use the Scattergun still and I can't find it. Snipers? Other Scouts? Sentries? Point blank Medic surprise kills? Avoiding Soldier's spamming splash damage at their feet? I'd want the Shortstop in all those cases. Maybe surprising Heavies but in a prolonged fight the Shortstop is better again. There is a reason in mmo's ranged dps classes kite and keeping your distance is it.

I'd like to agree with you that the Scattergun is easier to aim due to it's wider bullet spread but for whatever reason I actually find it harder to kill with. I know Bird of Pray finds the Shortstop easier too and he isn't a Scout pro. I've always had problems hitting stuff as a Scout as half the time it seems like I'm hitting targets by shooting behind them (I really need to get around to trying out cl_interp) but using the Shortstop it's easier for me. I think part of the problem is with the Scattergun bullet spread you have to get really close to make all the bullets hit. The target can move just a little for a bullet or two to miss and that decreases your dps. With the Shortstop if you hit with one bullet you are more likely to hit with all the bullets so the dps numbers aren't just straight forward the "Scattergun does more dps". I'd like to use both now and then but every time I switch from the Shortstop my kill count goes down :/.

Also consider this is not like a lot of other alt weapons like the Rocket Launcher/Direct Hit comparison. With those splash damage for corner and group killing is a completely different technique you gain using the Rocket Launcher. Even if you are good with the Direct Hit you still have cause to use the regular because of that.

I have tried the pistol with the Shortstop and, like you said, it's not useful (as I test everything out). I generally end up using Bonk or the Milk. In some SG situations you have to use bonk if you want to play Scout at all and that means the Shortstop is the go to companion weapon.

 

[Grimbeorn]

Exempting the crit situation (because a 144 crit at mid-range is crazy for the Scout) perhaps the Shortstop is not OP as much as it makes the Scattergun obsolete.

The point I'm making is - in my mind - that makes the shortstop too powerful. My understanding on the design for TF2 is that every different weapon should essentially be a sidegrade from the normal weapon. There should always be reasons to use both. I would say that this is the case with pretty much every other weapon in the game. Huntsman vs Sniper Rifle, Backburner vs Flamethrower, Direct Hit vs Rocket Launcher - all have pros and cons. The only reason to make a weapon that obsoletes another weapon is if the developers think that one class was not competing with the others well enough and must need an upgrade to compensate. I don't find scattergun scouts to be underpowered, do you? Besides, wouldn't the better solution for making a class more powerful be to simply... buff the class? Not give them one weapon that makes them viable?

Now, does the shortstop severely unbalance the game? No, the scout is still a scout. He still isn't going to be able to charge a sentry and kill it without dying or anything like that. It does make the scout more powerful overall, though, and I don't really think that the scout needed that.

I agree that the Shortstop does raise the skill ceiling for the Scout

On a side note, I would definitely say that the scout was not the class that needed a higher skill ceiling. There was already a huge difference between a bad scout and a good scout. If you are going to raise any skill ceilings, do it on a class like a heavy or something. The difference between a bad heavy and a good heavy is not very big at the moment.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

The point I'm making is - in my mind - that makes the shortstop too powerful. My understanding on the design for TF2 is that every different weapon should essentially be a sidegrade from the normal weapon. There should always be reasons to use both. I would say that this is the case with pretty much every other weapon in the game. Huntsman vs Sniper Rifle, Backburner vs Flamethrower, Direct Hit vs Rocket Launcher - all have pros and cons. The only reason to make a weapon that obsoletes another weapon is if the developers think that one class was not competing with the others well enough and must need an upgrade to compensate. I don't find scattergun scouts to be underpowered, do you? Besides, wouldn't the better solution for making a class more powerful be to simply... buff the class? Not give them one weapon that makes them viable?

Now, does the shortstop severely unbalance the game? No, the scout is still a scout. He still isn't going to be able to charge a sentry and kill it without dying or anything like that. It does make the scout more powerful overall, though, and I don't really think that the scout needed that.

The only thing I can think of is they wanted the Scout class to be played more so they gave him a weapon that allowed the second slot to be freed up. Without Bonk I don't see the Scout being played on maps that have sentry blockades or spam preventing you getting close much. I wish they had just flat altered the regular weapons/stats in some manner if they wanted that too.

Although most weapons are sidegrades I do consider one unlock, the Ambassador, a straight upgrade. Yeah it's hard to aim but if you can there is no reason not to use it over the revolver. It's dps is flat greater and it offers sniping abilities. I do think the spy needed it but the regular revolver, as good as it was, offers nothing but ease of use right now.

On a side note, I would definitely say that the scout was not the class that needed a higher skill ceiling. There was already a huge difference between a bad scout and a good scout. If you are going to raise any skill ceilings, do it on a class like a heavy or something. The difference between a bad heavy and a good heavy is not very big at the moment.

I've commented exactly on this before and agree. The issue with the Heavy is it's currently OP against most everything but it's not hard to play. There needs to be something to make the class more complex and allow it to be taken to a higher skill level not just make it more powerful. Everything they've done recently to heavy has been to make the Heavy crazy more mobile which has contributed to his OPness but not raised the skill level needed to play him by that much (it did raise it a little but still...). As it is mass Heavies are too hard to stop and too easy to play. Note I do realize the Heavy should have higher kill counts than light or support classes it's just a bit much right now. Maybe they should give him a mini-gun that rewards aim or timing in it's use while at the same time nerf his "while wound up" mobility back to what it was. Huntsman Snipers are the only reason I see to have that much mobility.

 

[Tek7]

On a side note, I would definitely say that the scout was not the class that needed a higher skill ceiling. There was already a huge difference between a bad scout and a good scout. If you are going to raise any skill ceilings, do it on a class like a heavy or something. The difference between a bad heavy and a good heavy is not very big at the moment.

Agreed.

Scout is one of my secondary classes, but Medic is still my primary. Believe me, I know how annoying a skilled Scout can be. When someone playing Scout is able to run in, 2-shot me, and run away without taking any damage, it gets on my nerves. Yes, Medics depend on their team for protection, but pub players fail to provide that protection more often than not (ToJ players are exempted from that generalization, of course).

 

[Keero]

From what I've played as Scout, the only thing bad about the Shortstop is the +25 HP set. In the hands of a really good scout, that owns me easy. Why? Because everytime I died to a set scout, he had like 5~20 HP left, after several good Scattergun shots.

As for the Shortstop itself, it has the same drawback that the fan does: it fires too quickly which means in a scout battle, each shot better count. Sure it reloads quickly, but I find the aiming to be way too finnicky. Does it spit out good DPS? Yeah, but I find my self reloading more instead of killing folks. I'll work with it next time I play, but I find the default weapon to be superior, especially with a Crit-A-Cola (so imba, <3 it so much).

For the thread, I was just saying ubered demo + SR = dead sentry nests. Pumps out so many stickies in a short period, find it to be much better over the default sticky launcher, regardless of the activation delay.