Proof that life did NOT come from a primordialsoup

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]Let me get this straight...you expect me to look around at the lovely green grass, the clear blue sky, the gorgeous sunsets, the color of leaves in the fall and attribute all that to a divine maker: God. Yet when I look at volcanoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, you want me to attribute that to Satan?

Please clarify.

Please do not group all of us together. God made all of it: the pretty, the ugly, the peaceful sunset and the violent nature.

Ultimately God allows whatever is going happen to happen, whether it is satan, us or something He chooses to happen. I cannot blame God for allowing my house to flood if I am the one who built it on a flood plain.

And in response to the myth of Enuma Elish (the term myth provided by research into Enuma Elish, not one that I assigned to it) you mentioned earlier, just because someone likes a story does not mean it is the truth.

 

[Marcylene]

DV, I have much to learn.  I can only seek out God through His Word and try to understand.  

How hard was it to have faith?  I think any Christian, any time, anywhere, fights with their faith being attacked.  The Old Testament Saints did see acts of God, then they would turn around and doubt.  The Disciples cast out demons, healed the sick and were ecstatic about it, then in a moment of being tired and hungry, the very next moment, they questioned how God would feed them.

And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?   Mark 8:4

We tend to forget what God has done for us.  

The King James Version explains the examples of sweet savour.  This is not some blood thirsty God.  

Reyach - savour
1. scent, fragrance, aroma, odour
   a. scent, odour
   b. odour of soothing (technical term for sacrifice to God)

He is loving the faith, love, and devotion of His Saints.  The savour they were sending up was a picture of the Saviour, God Himself, to come.

Quote[/b] ]WHY does God find it necessary to REQUIRE Man to bow down before Him?

I do not think this is a requirement.  God requires:

And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,  Deuteronmy 10:12

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?  Micah 6:8

The bowing comes from a grateful heart, it is not a requirement.

You say you do not believe in Him, yet saying He could have required other than blood...you are saying He can do anything.  I believe the same.  The reasons I stated earlier about the blood is all I can find.  

The enemy has free reign of this world for a time.  He is abusing what God created.  Can God use these things you mention in His wrath?  Once again, God can do anything.  I don't understand why you insist to not see His Love.  

And he said, go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake it in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.  I Kings 19:11 & 12

It is the goodness of God that brings us to repentance.  He is not out creating disasters simply for that purpose, so justify some blood thirsty, hateful means.  I have many tragedies in my life, as do many Christians and non-Christians alike.  To be honest, there are a couple that have shaken my faith and I am not certain that I will ever get over them.  Nevertheless, I KNOW God Romans 8:28's me!  He has loved us with an everlasting love.  I do not try to be dishonest.  I cannot explain everything, nor understand.  I can only have faith in what the Bible says to the best of my ability.

There is much more to nature than the fact that it is awesome and beautiful.  It is genius in it's workings.  I suffer lack DV, this is clarity to the best of my ability.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Jan. 09 2005,1:27)]To ask that God step down from His throne and say, "Hi," is asking the impossible! Can the proof that you guys want simply be acquired by faith?

Oh, now you're just being picky

Didn't God speak to many people in the OT? Who spoke with Moses? How about giving us a burning bush? Or a pillar of smoke? How about a pillar of fire?

Do you understand what I mean when I say the word "proof"? What is YOUR definition of proof?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Jan. 09 2005,1:50)]Frankly it comes down to this..mostly for DV and mr. bill or anyone else who absolutly refuse to believe

After every discussion I've had on this board, this is simply a slap in the face.

How many times must I say it?

I, and the majority of atheists like me, do not REFUSE to believe in anything. Give me proof and I will believe. It's quite simple. Unfortunately, as simple as that is, it's easier for you to believe that I am being obstinate. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Every Christian, who believes in God had to cross some threshhold of belief, no? Didn't you? Didn't your wife? Some believe easier than others. Some, like me, base our belief on proof, evidence and reason. I really don't think that's asking too much at all.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Genesis1315 @ Jan. 09 2005,2:20)]

Quote[/b] ]Please do not group all of us together. God made all of it: the pretty, the ugly, the peaceful sunset and the violent nature.

No offense meant, but isn't that what is being done to me? You can't lump all nonbelievers together just as you can't lump all Christians together. Right?

Quote[/b] ]Ultimately God allows whatever is going happen to happen, whether it is satan, us or something He chooses to happen. I cannot blame God for allowing my house to flood if I am the one who built it on a flood plain.

Are you actually BLAMING those people in Indonesia for living in flood plain? Where would you like them to move to? They don't even rate living in a third world country, it was worse than that. What area do you think is safe to live in from God's weather patterns? Obviously the coasts are out. Forget the middle of the country with their tornados. Let's not forget all those fault lines that run through the country. I guess we should all huddle together in the middle of the desert huh? Oh crap, no rain. Now what?

Quote[/b] ]And in response to the myth of Enuma Elish (the term myth provided by research into Enuma Elish, not one that I assigned to it) you mentioned earlier, just because someone likes a story does not mean it is the truth.

Bingo!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]How hard was it to have faith? I think any Christian, any time, anywhere, fights with their faith being attacked. The Old Testament Saints did see acts of God, then they would turn around and doubt. The Disciples cast out demons, healed the sick and were ecstatic about it, then in a moment of being tired and hungry, the very next moment, they questioned how God would feed them.

Marcy, that's my point exactly. If it was extremely difficult for man to have faith in God when He was a part of their daily lives, how much harder is it to actually believe He exists 2,000 years later?

Quote[/b] ]I do not think this is a requirement.

You don't? What happens to those who refuse to bow to God? Ah, that's right, there's a warm little place set aside for them, right?

Quote[/b] ]There is much more to nature than the fact that it is awesome and beautiful. It is genius in it's workings. I suffer lack DV, this is clarity to the best of my ability.

Unfortunately, there is more to discuss. You talk about how awesome nature is and how there is genius in its workings. I don't think earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes and tsunamis would be considered "genius". I'd consider them a HUGE error on the part of the creator.

 

[Marcylene]

DV, I would expect Him to say, "Shalom!"

I hope you aren't wanting all those signs in unison, pleeeaaaase, I live in Texas, too!

Proof, without grabbing the dictionary, would be something to grasp with at least one of our five senses. For me, proof of God are things of the heart. I honestly believe that Spiritual things that happen to me cannot be written off as coincidence. I feel He is constantly sending me proof that He loves me and He is here with me.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Jan. 09 2005,3:40)]DV, I would expect Him to say, "Shalom!"

I hope you aren't wanting all those signs in unison, pleeeaaaase, I live in Texas, too!

Proof, without grabbing the dictionary, would be something to grasp with at least one of our five senses. For me, proof of God are things of the heart. I honestly believe that Spiritual things that happen to me cannot be written off as coincidence. I feel He is constantly sending me proof that He loves me and He is here with me.

All I am asking is for ONE incontrivertable piece of proof, of evidence.

That's all I need

Proof, according to my dictionary is, "the cogency[quality or state] of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact".

This is exactly the opposite of things of the "heart".

 

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]Are you actually BLAMING those people in Indonesia for living in flood plain? Where would you like them to move to?

Not at all. My example was just that. I can quote any type of natural disaster and have it applied to some horrific situation.

Let's kick that natural disasters into another topic.

Question - Do you think that I like evolution better than the other theories?


Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

I have no idea.

What evolution are you referring to? Micro or Macro?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Jan. 09 2005,6:57)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Jan. 09 2005,3:29)]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Jan. 09 2005,1:50)]Frankly it comes down to this..mostly for DV and mr. bill or anyone else who absolutly refuse to believe

After every discussion I've had on this board, this is simply a slap in the face.

How many times must I say it?

I, and the majority of atheists like me, do not REFUSE to believe in anything.  Give me proof and I will believe.  It's quite simple.  Unfortunately, as simple as that is, it's easier for you to believe that I am being obstinate.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Every Christian, who believes in God had to cross some threshhold of belief, no?  Didn't you?  Didn't your wife?  Some believe easier than others.  Some, like me, base our belief on proof, evidence and reason.  I really don't think that's asking too much at all.

Yes you do.  You want proof or you will not believe.  It is clearly spelled out that if you demand physical proof you will not understand nor accept Jesus.

That is not refusing to believe hescomin. It's just requiring a certain standard of evidence before choosing to believe in something. That's perfectly reasonable, as most athiests are by nature. Please don't say that athiests 'refuse to believe,' for they do not, and I find it insulting.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Yes you do. You want proof or you will not believe. It is clearly spelled out that if you demand physical proof you will not understand nor accept Jesus.

I think it's a fault of misunderstanding the fundamentals of the English language.

REFUSE: to express oneself as unwilling to accept, to show or express unwillingness to do or comply with, deny

As I have stated many times, I am more than willing to accept the existence of God.

I have never been unwilling to comply with the existence of God.

I have never denied the existence of God.

How much more simply do you need me to spell it out?

heiscomming, whether you want to accept it or not, you had to cross a certain line that separated belief from disbelief, did you not? What caused you to believe? Somehow, somewhere, something caused you to believe in God, what was it?

I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, I'm simply asking for a REASON to believe. Why is that so unreasonable in your eyes?

 

[Shiesty McGiggles]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Jan. 09 2005,9:56)]That is not refusing to believe hescomin.  It's just requiring a certain standard of evidence before choosing to believe in something.  That's perfectly reasonable, as most athiests are by nature.  Please don't say that athiests 'refuse to believe,' for they do not, and I find it insulting.

Ok, I know I havent posted anything in this thread as of yet, but I feel the need to address a few things here.

1. Although I can see why you would find it insulting to be told you "refuse to believe" in something, your statement that "most atheists are perfectly resonable by nature" is equally insulting to those of us who have chosen to take that step of faith and believe in God, in Jesus Christ, the Bible, and what has been normally referred to on here as "religion". It was probably not your intent to insult, but the way you worded your statement implied that atheists are more reasonable than monothiests.

2. The very word "belief" implies an act of faith. In order to have faith in anything at all, you cannot have physical proof that it exists. Once faith becomes "reality", you stop having to believe in it, and it becomes knowledge. Faith is entirely optional. If you chose not to have "faith" in gravity, you would not float off into space. We have knowledge of gravity, because we can prove it exists using scientific methods. If one were to prove the existance of God using those same scientific methods, faith would no longer be needed. We would know He existed and is real, which would entirely negate the whole purpose of the Bible, the prophets, and even the very act of Jesus coming down to earth and becoming both fully human and fully divine (often referred to as the dual nature of Christ). God wants us to love Him and believe in Him and obey His laws. He also loves us enough to let us make our own desicions. If He were to give "hard evidence" of His existance, we would no longer have free will, due to the fact that we could not refuse to "believe" in Him. We would know He is real, and would not dare to disobey any of His laws (and yes I challenge anybody to honestly state that given concrete proof of both God's existance and that the Bible is 100% correct, that they would willingly go against God and declare they WANT to go to ####).

3. Earlier it was debated whether or not Christ actually sacrificed anything for us, as He came back to life. Christ was both fully human and fully divine, and when He died, He died a mortal death. He lost his human life when He offered that as payment for our sins (including those that do not believe in Him). That was His gift to us, His sacrifice. Whether or not we choose to accept it is up to us, because we have free will. I'm certain that a few people will want to debate that with me, saying they still have no reason to believe in God, but I have never considered myself an apologist nor an evangelist, so to those that wish to debate, I would respectfully direct you to an essay known as Pascal's Wager (and yes, I know I probably botched the spelling on that one, my apologies).


==EDIT==
I apologize for setting off the language filter when I named the place lucifer and the other fallen angels were cast into. I was unaware that the word was censored here, and it was not my intent to insult or offend anyone.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Free will is tricky, and we've discussed that topic to death, so I'ma gonna stay away from that at the moment.  As for my 'most athiests are reasonable by nature' statement, I did not mean to imply that theists were not.  The percentage of 'reasonable' theists is likely very similar to athiests, I mentioned it only to clarify against the false stereotype of athiesm.  

As for faith, let me clarify a bit.  First of all you must take into consideration that virtually all atheistic thought is different, so it would be a fallacy to generalize.  Different people value different things, and have their beliefs contingent upon those respective values.  So I can only really speak for myself, though it is probably true for other athiests as well.  I can have faith in things; I think everyone does.  There are just some things in life that you have to assume, because you will probably never 'know'.  For instance I assume that Antarctica exists, because I have never seen it myself.  It is highly likely that it does exist, with all the scientific expiditions to the continent having happened and with no apparent ulterior motive for them to create an imaginary mass of land.  If I were to disbelieve in Antarctica, I would need sufficient evidence AGAINST its existence.  So with God, I disbelieve primarily not because of the lack of evidence for the existence of 'God' and all things that encapsulate him, but because of evidence against such an existence.  That point will probably vary from atheist to atheist, but for me the 'seeing is believing' thing (or more specifically, the 'not seeing is not believing' thing) doesn't cut it.  

As for Pascal's Wager, I don't like his logic, because I wouldn't want to believe in a God that would reward such a self-serving set of beliefs.  If I am to believe in God, it needs to be for the right reasons.  

And yeah, I find it pretty ridiculous that 'He-ll' is censored on this forum...as it is a Christian term..

 

[Avesther]

I know DV has said he wouldn't know what type of "proof" he would require. I know, when I pushed him on the subject he even conceded that even talking with God wouldn't necessarily be enough.

But, its not just a matter of believing. From inferance of what DV and Mr. Bill and Jim have all mentioned about themselves, its not that they don't want to believe in a God, they all mentioned that they did at one time.

But, because God doesn't fit into the mould they think God should fit in, they reject God. They want God to be a cute cudley pushover who bows to their everywhim like a servant. They feel they should at least be equal with God. Even if God gave them the pillar of fire, they would turn to science for an explaination, no matter how absurd the explaination was. They do not goto God searching for answers, they go to people, expecting them to be able to answer their question. Its the easy way out of looking for God. And when they find that people are proned to error, they use that for another reason to reject.

They set themselves up for failure and then wonder why they fail. Its not much different then the overweight person who sits on the couch watching ads for diet and excercise programs, calls people who are on the programs and then expects to loose weight without ever getting up off the couch and starting the programs.

You've all been told over and over again, if you want to find God, go and look for God. While it is ok to look for help amongst us, you will not find your answers here. You will have to read the bible, you will have pray and ask God for assistance, for God to open your eyes and heart and work at it. You don't loose weight in one day, you might loose some in a week but it to take it off and keep it off, you must dedicate yourself to the program.

Sure, you can say you were a Christian..but how do you know you weren't anything more then a pew warmer? How do you know you weren't just going through the actions or doing something because your parents always did it that way?

You want God to talk to you....start by talking to him and learning to listen and hear his voice, it often starts really quiet and requires you to leave all distractions outside.

 

[Marcylene]

For unbelievers wanting tangible evidential proof, this concerns me, for you see, that will come with the antichrist.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:24

Matthew 24 gives the account of the end of time. This will be the next time we see Him face to face, those who are alive, that is. Verse 27 says:

For as the lightening cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

You say many unbelievers used to practice religion, this may not be your exact words, but herein is a place to keep in mind the definition of being a Christian, or simply being religious. The Bible foretold of a falling away. It makes me wonder that those who deny Christ now, never truly accepted Jesus Christ and Him Crucified for their salvation in the first place.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; II Thessalonians 2:3

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Ephesians 5:2

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. I John 2:18

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. I John 2:22

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. I John 4:3

You speak of God insisting that we bow down to Him. He does give us a choice of free will, not so with the enemy:

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small adn great, rich and poor, free and bond, to recieve a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding coun the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and is number is Six hundred threescore and six.. Revelation 13: 15-18

Your sources also concern me. If someone is having marital problems, they are not going to go to someone that is single or who hates the idea of marriage for advice. If soemone wants assistance on raising a child, would it be wise to seek out someone who dislikes children? Yet, you have filled your hearts and minds with advice from unbelievers, and as they, are now insistant on proof. Nevertheless, the things of the Spirit or from the Bible, God's Holy Word, you shun.

sacrifice - Anything consecrated and offered to God, or to a divinity; an immolated victim, or an offering of any kind, laid upon an altar, or otherwise presented in the way of religious thanksgiving, atonement, or conciliation.

"propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. Heb. 2:17 ~taken from Eaton's Bible Dictionary copyright 1897

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. I John 2:2

Was it not a sacrifice to leave His Heavenly throne? Was it not a sacrifice to be sin for us? One can only hardly, even barely begin to assume the pain: mental, physical, and Spiritual that bearing the sins of the world would cause. I cannot imagine the Love it took to stay on the Cross, when, by your own admittance, He can do anything, yet He stayed on the Cross for you and for me! He was beaten more than we will ever know or can comprehend and had nothing for the pain. The Bible says His visage was marred. I have heard it explained that you could not tell if He was a man or an animal. Imagine the torture! Imagine what type of bodily injury it would take in order to be unable to make the distinction. Why? For our sins? But why? He could have chosen some other way! I do not believe this to be true. Perhaps it is a gravity thing, it just simply is. I have not found the answer.

You seem almost angry and full of hate by some of your accusations towards God. No one wants their integrity challenged. How much more would that be hurtful to someone that loves us with an everlasting love? How much more would it hurt someone who IS the truth?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:16

My heart mourns for the unbeliever. While they want proof, there is proof in the very soul of the believer. I don't suppose this kind of faith could be understood any other way than humbly, as a little child accepting Jesus. I think God understood that some would have difficulty with faith. He tells us that we only need that of a mustard seed; that was Jesus' response when the apostles asked Him to increase their faith. In addition, the Bible speaks of a man having this difficulty of believing concerning healing for his daughter. He prayed for God to help His unbelief. Our faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Our salvation comes through Jesus. Thereafter, He continues to give so much more.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8


The one true source on knowing Christ is the Bible.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 2:12

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Jan. 09 2005,7:38)]I am not asking you to spell anything out..i am merely pointing out what the bible says. The bible has all the reasons man needs to believe. The bible makes it very clear..if you require physical proof..you will not understand or accept Jesus. You are not going to be able to dance around this..you are not going to be able to turn it back on me..this is what God said. I am merely the messenger..the message is not mine..it is God's.

Note that I never said I needed PHYSICAL proof. Quote me as saying that and I'll eat my keyboard.

I said I needed LOGICAL, RATIONAL EVIDENCE to believe.

Now it's your turn to doseedo.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Shiesty McGiggles @ Jan. 09 2005,11:15)]

Quote[/b] ]1. Although I can see why you would find it insulting to be told you "refuse to believe" in something, your statement that "most atheists are perfectly resonable by nature" is equally insulting to those of us who have chosen to take that step of faith and believe in God, in Jesus Christ, the Bible, and what has been normally referred to on here as "religion". It was probably not your intent to insult, but the way you worded your statement implied that atheists are more reasonable than monothiests.

I'm sorry if you were insulted, and I don't think I can clarify it much further without added insult. I do believe that atheists are more rational when it comes to their beliefs. We base our beliefs on reason, evidence and logic. Christians do not. Faith, by its very definition, is contrary to logic. You may find it insulting, but you would have to admit, it is also the truth.

Quote[/b] ]2. The very word "belief" implies an act of faith. In order to have faith in anything at all, you cannot have physical proof that it exists. Once faith becomes "reality", you stop having to believe in it, and it becomes knowledge. Faith is entirely optional. If you chose not to have "faith" in gravity, you would not float off into space. We have knowledge of gravity, because we can prove it exists using scientific methods. If one were to prove the existance of God using those same scientific methods, faith would no longer be needed. We would know He existed and is real, which would entirely negate the whole purpose of the Bible, the prophets, and even the very act of Jesus coming down to earth and becoming both fully human and fully divine (often referred to as the dual nature of Christ). God wants us to love Him and believe in Him and obey His laws. He also loves us enough to let us make our own desicions. If He were to give "hard evidence" of His existance, we would no longer have free will, due to the fact that we could not refuse to "believe" in Him. We would know He is real, and would not dare to disobey any of His laws (and yes I challenge anybody to honestly state that given concrete proof of both God's existance and that the Bible is 100% correct, that they would willingly go against God and declare they WANT to go to ####).

As I have already stated, there are many different types of faith. Faith in God is not synonymous with faith that your car will start in the morning. One is based off of experience, one is not.

Quote[/b] ]3. Earlier it was debated whether or not Christ actually sacrificed anything for us, as He came back to life. Christ was both fully human and fully divine, and when He died, He died a mortal death. He lost his human life when He offered that as payment for our sins (including those that do not believe in Him). That was His gift to us, His sacrifice. Whether or not we choose to accept it is up to us, because we have free will. I'm certain that a few people will want to debate that with me, saying they still have no reason to believe in God, but I have never considered myself an apologist nor an evangelist, so to those that wish to debate, I would respectfully direct you to an essay known as Pascal's Wager (and yes, I know I probably botched the spelling on that one, my apologies).

I respectfully point out that Pascal's Wager is illogical and a fallacy. I have mentioned this several times already, so if you would like some links on the subject, I will be more than happy to oblige.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Jan. 10 2005,12:24)]

Quote[/b] ]I know DV has said he wouldn't know what type of "proof" he would require. I know, when I pushed him on the subject he even conceded that even talking with God wouldn't necessarily be enough.

Eh? I wouldn't mind seeing that in context.

Quote[/b] ]But, its not just a matter of believing. From inferance of what DV and Mr. Bill and Jim have all mentioned about themselves, its not that they don't want to believe in a God, they all mentioned that they did at one time.

Just like I believed in the Tooth Fair and Santa Claus.

Quote[/b] ]But, because God doesn't fit into the mould they think God should fit in, they reject God.

WRONG. Haven't you listened to ANYTHING I've said? Rejection doesn't fit into the equation.

Quote[/b] ]They want God to be a cute cudley pushover who bows to their everywhim like a servant. They feel they should at least be equal with God.

What a load of horse hockey. Where the heck did you get that from?

Quote[/b] ]Even if God gave them the pillar of fire, they would turn to science for an explaination, no matter how absurd the explaination was.

The pillar of fire, pillar of smoke, Red Sea and countless miracles sure worked for the Israelites didn't it?

Quote[/b] ]They do not goto God searching for answers, they go to people, expecting them to be able to answer their question. Its the easy way out of looking for God. And when they find that people are proned to error, they use that for another reason to reject.

Another incorrect load of crap. I never said I was looking for someone to convert me. My being here was to understand WHAT and WHY you believe the things you do. Conversion or deconversion has never come into play.

Quote[/b] ]They set themselves up for failure and then wonder why they fail. Its not much different then the overweight person who sits on the couch watching ads for diet and excercise programs, calls people who are on the programs and then expects to loose weight without ever getting up off the couch and starting the programs.

Exactly when and where have I failed?

Quote[/b] ]You've all been told over and over again, if you want to find God, go and look for God. While it is ok to look for help amongst us, you will not find your answers here. You will have to read the bible, you will have pray and ask God for assistance, for God to open your eyes and heart and work at it. You don't loose weight in one day, you might loose some in a week but it to take it off and keep it off, you must dedicate yourself to the program.

I was a Christian for many years, so...been there, done that.

Quote[/b] ]Sure, you can say you were a Christian..but how do you know you weren't anything more then a pew warmer? How do you know you weren't just going through the actions or doing something because your parents always did it that way?

I could try and explain it to you, but you are content to lie about the things that I have said and manipulate your memories of past conversations, so what good would it do? Suffice it to say that you do not know my heart.

Quote[/b] ]You want God to talk to you....start by talking to him and learning to listen and hear his voice, it often starts really quiet and requires you to leave all distractions outside.

As I have said, been there, done that.

I am completely flabbergasted by this post. Lies and innuendoes coupled with complete fallacies. That was by far the worst post I have ever seen you make. It is sickening.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]As I have already stated, there are many different types of faith. Faith in God is not synonymous with faith that your car will start in the morning. One is based off of experience, one is not.

What happens if ones faith in God is like that of the car will start in the morning...then what???

What happens if prayer after prayer gets answered...maybe not in the way you expected, but in a way you knew there was no coincedence to it. Maybe you knew the "no" from the "yes" from the "not yets" from the "this ways"? I have faith that my car will start...but I am no fool to think there will be no problems if the weather dropped to -30 overnight and I didn't plug my car in. I recognize the signs of whether or not my car will start, and sometimes I misinterprete the signs and my car starts in the morning when its -30 without being plugged in. My car hasn't started when it is 70 above. The same is true with prayer...you begin recognize the signs of the answer of a prayer and you begin to have faith in that. Sometimes, you miss a sign and end up with a no when things were pointing to a yes, or get a yes when things look down to a no.

I have faith in the existance of God because God works in my life and I see it happening. My faith is based on experience. It started with a shaky first step, which lead to a shaky second step and then to a third and a forth and so on.