Proof that life did NOT come from a primordialsoup

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (BMM @ Jan. 07 2005,8:41)]You atheists pretend like science answers everything.
I have some questions for you.

1. Where did every molecule in the universe come from?

2. Where does the universe end?

3. What is matter?

4. What is energy?

5. Why are objects attracted to each other? Why does light shine? Why is matter solid? Why does energy move things?

Care to answer all these questions with science? Science can answer all these questions, can't it? After all, can't science answer everything?

If you would actually LISTEN to what "we atheists" have to say, you would know that we are very open to the fact that we DON'T have all the answers. We don't PRETEND to have all the answers. Instead of having your eyes glaze over and your ears shut within the first 5 seconds of a discussion, try using that bit of gray matter between your ears. Show me where I, Mr. Bill or Jim have said that science has all the answers. In fact, if you would actually look at this thread, you would see that we have said the exact opposite. How about I turn the table and ask you to answer your same five questions with the Bible?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have simply confused "science" with the "scientific method". Do I believe science has all the answers? No. Do I believe that the only way to truly find the answer to a question is through the use of the scientific method? Yes. HUGE difference in questions.

 

[Dark Virtue]

SA, you said:

Quote[/b] ]it says in job that we revolve around the sun.

And you gave me this verse:

Quote[/b] ]Job 26:7 (King James Version)

7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing

How did you get that to mean the earth revolved around the sun?

 

[Genesis1315]

Everyone - calm it down. Consider this the only warning.

Gen

p.s. This is an excellent time to edit any posts that are a bit out of line (hint)

 

[Dark Virtue]

Marcy,

I have a HUGE problem with Larry Varderman's article.

Namely, this quote:

Quote[/b] ]It is evident from only these few selected Scripture passages that God created the universe and cares for us to the point of providing His own Son as a sacrifice for our sins. In our finiteness we don't fully understand an infinite God, but how dare we arrogantly deny such a God.

First, as I have stated before, Christ's death wasn't much of a sacrifice since nothing was lost. Christ regained not only his physical life but also everlasting life at the right hand of God. Look up the definition of sacrifice.

Second, Christ's death was meant to be satiate God's need for a blood sacrifice. Death and pain were not NECESSARY, but that's the way God wanted it. Could an omniscient, omnipotent God removed the sins of Man another way? Of course, He simply chose not to.

Thirdly, the majority of athesits do not "arrogantly deny" the existence of God. Atheists that do so are considered "strong" atheists and are a minority. The majority is made up of "weak" atheists. Weak atheists do not actively deny the existence of ANY god, we simply believe there is no evidence to substantiate the existence of a god. Show us evidence and proof and we would have no choice BUT to believe. Look up evidence and proof in the dictionary before you start asking what we consider evidence or proof.

God is the only being able to show incontrivertable proof of His existence and He refuses to do so.

 

[BMM]

You are right that I jumped to conclusions by saying that you think you know everthing. DV admitted that he didn't know everything in an earlier post, but I hadn't read this yet. I am sorry for making assumptions about your personality.

On the subject of science, Am I not entitled to point out its faults. You point out what you precieve as "faults" in the Bible, and I know the Bible is truth.

For those of you just joining our discussion wondering in which post I accused the unbelieving crowd of thinking they knew everything, I'm about to edit it, assuming that hint was for me, and that I accused people wrongly.

DV, as for your statement about Christ not sacrificing anything for us, I'll respond by saying that being crucified isn't exactly a fun and exiting expirience.

Christ loved us enough to die for us. You say "Why couldn't Christ just forgive everyone without dying?"

"The greatest love a person can have for his friends is to give his life for them. And you are my friends if you do what I command you" John 15:13-14

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (BMM @ Jan. 07 2005,12:39)]

Quote[/b] ]You are right that I jumped to conclusions by saying that you think you know everthing. DV admitted that he didn't know everything in an earlier post, but I hadn't read this yet. I am sorry for making assumptions about your personality.

Thank you for being man enough to admit your mistakes.

Quote[/b] ]On the subject of science, Am I not entitled to point out its faults. You point out what you precieve as "faults" in the Bible, and I know the Bible is truth.

What do you mean by ENTITLED? Everyone is entitled to criticize science, that's what strengthens it. You say you KNOW the Bible to be TRUTH. I suggest you look up the definitions for both words, then tell us how you arrived at that conclusion. Are you somehow implying that non-Christians are somehow not "entitled" to criticize the Bible because we don't follow it. You may not know that most atheists have had a theistic background, so I think I am well qualified to criticize a religion that I was part of for many years. Sometimes one can point out a problem that you can't see or haven't noticed. Does that mean the problem isn't there?

Quote[/b] ]DV, as for your statement about Christ not sacrificing anything for us, I'll respond by saying that being crucified isn't exactly a fun and exiting expirience.

We went through a whole thread on this subject before, but it's been lost. No, crucifixtion and pain isn't fun or exciting. But again, I point you to the dictionary. One of the definitions of sacrifice is, "something given up or lost". What did Christ lose, or give up that wasn't received back or made up for three days later?

Quote[/b] ]Christ loved us enough to die for us. You say "Why couldn't Christ just forgive everyone without dying?"

"The greatest love a person can have for his friends is to give his life for them. And you are my friends if you do what I command you" John 15:13-14

You're missing the point. GOD is the one responsible for placing a death sentence on His son. WHY was his death necessary? Because God wanted him to die.

I propose that a soldier in WWII (let's say a non-Christian who didn't have an afterlife to look forward to) sacrificed MORE than Christ did by throwing himself on a grenade to save his comrades. He went through pain and sacrificed his life knowing he wouldn't come back in three days.

Something to ponder: Sacrifice

 

[BMM]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Jan. 07 2005,11:33)]
I propose that a soldier in WWII (let's say a non-Christian who didn't have an afterlife to look forward to) sacrificed MORE than Christ did by throwing himself on a grenade to save his comrades.  He went through pain and sacrificed his life knowing he wouldn't come back in three days.

You must remenber, that soldier was a sinner like all of us. He he may not have been a nazi, a murdurer, or an aduteror, but at some piont in his life, he did something wrong. Christ never sinned, he was truely inoscent. He died for other peoples' sins.

Imagine this, my Dad used to build detailed models of airplanes for me when I was a a child. He told me not to play with them, but I did and I broke them. I disobeyed him, and destroyed what he made. Yet he forgave me because he loved me. Imagine he were to say, " I love you so much, I would die for you. If the model you broke was expensive, I would pay for it for you." Christ loves us so much he is willing to die for us. The soldier dying for his commrades is like my father making a model, and deciding to throw it away. Christ dying is like my father forgiving me for what I destroyed that belonged to him.

What did he give us? Christ could have been ruling the universe in heaven, instead, he was suffering agony and humiliation for people he had created, and who had hated him, and disobeyed him.

 

[BMM]

Quote[/b] ]What did Christ lose, or give up that wasn't received back or made up for three days later?

Let me give you this example,

There are two soldiers in a war. One soldier takes a bullet for the Other. The soldier that was shot is wounded, so he is taken to the hospital. There, he recovers and his wounds heal. When he gets home from the hospital, he applies to get a medal for his heroic actions. Do you think the government would respond by saying, "You are not elligable for a medal since your wounds have healed?"

 

[SLNT_FIR]

wow. this post is exploding. i check it once a day and iklke 7-10 replies appear... lol.

so athiests right now, are kind of not lost, but still searching, right? but DV, isn't it POSSIBLE that there is a creator with the current evidence? i mean from an athiestic pov.

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ] isn't it POSSIBLE that there is a creator with the current evidence? i mean from an athiestic pov.

I'm open to the possibility of a creator or something. Just not the Judeo-Christian God or the Islamic God. If evidence appears that point to a divinity I would change my mind.

As such, currently there is insufficient evidence to convince me.

 

[Marcylene]

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.  Jeremiah 31:3

His great love is difficult to comprehend, granted.  We truly do not have anything here on earth to compare it.  I know everything He does is out of love for us.  We were on His mind when He created the universe and all things therein, we were on His mind on the Cross; we were on His mind the second we were conceived, we have been on His mind forever.  We do not have all the answers from the Bible, either.  Why the blood sacrifice?  Why did He choose the things He did when it is in His power and glory to do as He wishes?  (At least you recognize this, DV!)  We are asked to trust Him with a childlike faith.  How can we not when someone only has our best interest at heart?

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  Colossians 1:16

He made everything!  He said it, and rather I believe it or not is my choice.  What I believe does not alter the truth!  He made it simple enough for a child to understand!  WHEW!  I thank Him and praise Him for that!  While I am enjoying the debate of this thread...I am happy I do not have need to have all the answers...especially those scientific earth science ones!  Truly, by His love, grace, and mercy, Colossians 1:16 is all I need!

If you look at the site I gave earlier, you will see a multitude of articles. I trust and respect the authors there. If you study the universe, the sun, moon, stars, location of planets...it is all built on a mathematical scale. Would that not prove that there is a God, for those who must see proof in creation? I still say a look at nature simply cannot deny the fact of God as Creator!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (BMM @ Jan. 08 2005,2:47)]

Quote[/b] ]You must remenber, that soldier was a sinner like all of us. He he may not have been a nazi, a murdurer, or an aduteror, but at some piont in his life, he did something wrong. Christ never sinned, he was truely inoscent. He died for other peoples' sins.

Sinning has nothing to do with this topic. The soldier that sacrificed his life wasn't resurrected three days later to sit at the right hand of God. How hard was it, do you think, for the son of God to go 30 odd years without sinning??? Hello, he was GOD, I would think it would be pretty easy.

Quote[/b] ]Imagine this, my Dad used to build detailed models of airplanes for me when I was a a child. He told me not to play with them, but I did and I broke them. I disobeyed him, and destroyed what he made. Yet he forgave me because he loved me. Imagine he were to say, " I love you so much, I would die for you. If the model you broke was expensive, I would pay for it for you." Christ loves us so much he is willing to die for us. The soldier dying for his commrades is like my father making a model, and deciding to throw it away. Christ dying is like my father forgiving me for what I destroyed that belonged to him.

Bad analogy, but let's make it more appropriate. You father tells you not to touch his models, yet he locks you in a room with the model knowing FULL WELL that you will break it (since he's omniscient). Then when you break it, he comes in all nonchalant asking where you are and stuff. Finding that you broke it, he kicks you out of his house, damning you and every single one of your offspring.

Quote[/b] ]What did he give us? Christ could have been ruling the universe in heaven, instead, he was suffering agony and humiliation for people he had created, and who had hated him, and disobeyed him.

Christ's suffering is insignificant compared to an everlasting existence. Were he truly a man instead of a god, not to have been resurrected three days later, THEN I could label that a sacrifice. Once more I ask you, WHY did Christ have to die? WHY did blood need to be spilled? Why couldn't God have come up with another way? Christ died because God WANTED him to die. There's no way around that.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (BMM @ Jan. 08 2005,3:15)]

Quote[/b] ]What did Christ lose, or give up that wasn't received back or made up for three days later?

Let me give you this example,

There are two soldiers in a war. One soldier takes a bullet for the Other. The soldier that was shot is wounded, so he is taken to the hospital. There, he recovers and his wounds heal. When he gets home from the hospital, he applies to get a medal for his heroic actions. Do you think the government would respond by saying, "You are not elligable for a medal since your wounds have healed?"

First, a true hero wouldn't go out of his way to receive recognition for deeds done in combat. It is far more likely that someone ELSE would ask that he receive recognition.

Secondly, bullet wounds don't disappear entirely. You are left with a scar, nerve damage, bone damage, etc. Did Christ have to worry about any of these things as a spirit being?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (SilentAssassin @ Jan. 08 2005,7:01)]wow. this post is exploding. i check it once a day and iklke 7-10 replies appear... lol.

so athiests right now, are kind of not lost, but still searching, right? but DV, isn't it POSSIBLE that there is a creator with the current evidence? i mean from an athiestic pov.

Atheists are not "lost".

It is NOT possible to believe in the existence of a creator with the current evidence availabele to mankind.

That's that WHOLE point.

Now, this would all be moot if God would simply show up and say "HI".

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Would that not prove that there is a God, for those who must see proof in creation? I still say a look at nature simply cannot deny the fact of God as Creator!

No offense, but you come to this conclusion in an illogical way.

How does nature point to God? Even if I went so far as to say that an Intelligent Designer exists, WHY would I attribute God to be that designer? An Intelligent Designer could be ANY god, not necessarily the God of the Bible.

How, in your estimation, does nature prove God as an intelligent designer? When you answer that question, keep in mind the tsunami that struck Indonesia.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Dark Virtue, I have a request:

Can you maybe put all your posts in one post? I don't know if the double-posting was removed or not. If it was, ignore my request. If not, whatever.

I think it's safe to say that we're all on the same side of the coin: we don't know anything about God's Plan, God's creation, God's destiny, or anything. We're just going with the flow.


I agree with Dark Virtue on the issue of "it's not a sacrifice if he didn't lose anything". I don't understand it. I don't know if it's ever been called a sacrifice biblically (I'm not completely versed in the NT yet). If God died, and knew full well he'd come back to life, what kind of sacrifice was that? It wasn't one. It was a sabbatical. Why did he have to do that? I dunno.

Maybe God wanted to have Jesus die because God demanded sacrifices, even though later on I believe it was Jesus who said that God didn't want sacrifices, merely the hearts of men. But why he had Adam start the sacrifice thing is beyond me. Maybe he figured blood of the innocent was needed to cover the guilty. Hence Jesus' dying. Simply shedding innocent blood for guilty men. Dunno. I'm not a theologian or an apologist.


Maybe the hardest thing of arguing the beginning is not being there. We have to argue from now, and even now is sketchy.


Regarding how nature points to God, maybe it doesn't at all. Fine, so a grand world was created for us, beautifully finetuned. Nature points to God because God says he made it. That's about the clearest I can get, which isn't anywhere. I don't think nature necessarily points to God. Romanticists may say so, and I believe it's true, but as for validating the claim, that I don't believe anyone can do.

And don't forget, disaster doesn't imply stupidity. God also claimed that sin basically ruined the entire world. Maybe this world was made to be a flawless, eternal paradise. Or maybe not, since God is all-knowing (that's a giant argument right there...whether knowledge presupposes action). But then sin entered the world and death with it, so maybe sin sent the entire universe into entropy. If you accept God's way, then weird, supernatural occurrences like that are very plausible.

And if you despise tragedy, then don't forget the good. While cancer strikes someone, another person may get out of a coma, or whatever.

I have a question for you Dark Virtue: you claimed that if God, any god, was proved to you, you'd have to believe it. No question. Doesn't necessity kill the entire foundation of faith? According to Paul "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." By seeing something, does that destroy the capacity to place faith in it as being there? I'd like your opinion on the matter.

 

[Marcylene]

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11

You are overlooking a fact here. First, the Old Testament Saints had faith in God as Saviour and that faith was counted unto them as righteousness. Their animal sacrifices were replaced once and for all by the blood of Jesus Christ His Son.

There is power in His blood!

His blood pays for our sins.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

We are bought with the price of His Holy, Powerful, Precious Blood.

Acts 20:28 ...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1 Corinthians 6:20, 7:23 ...ye are bought with a price...

The blood justifies us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The blood redeems us. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. Ephesians 1:7

The blood cleans us from all sin.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

By His blood our sins are washed away.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

It is the enemy that was cast down to this world. It is the enemy that causes hurt, sadness, castrophe and pain. The question about the tsaumani sound much like, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Why not ask why good things happen to bad people?

Romans 1 starting with verse 17 and continuing to the end speaks of God in nature.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power adn Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1: 19~20

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]I have a question for you Dark Virtue: you claimed that if God, any god, was proved to you, you'd have to believe it. No question. Doesn't necessity kill the entire foundation of faith? According to Paul "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." By seeing something, does that destroy the capacity to place faith in it as being there? I'd like your opinion on the matter.

There are different types of faith in this world. Faith that your car will start in the morning, faith that your wife will be true to you, faith that God exists and faith that God will do what He says. I think you are remiss in not distinguishing between those faiths. If God were to show up and say HI, my free will would still be intact. I still have a choice to follow Him or not. If I chose to follow Him, I would still need to have Faith. Faith to believe that He will do what He said He would do. I wouldn't need Faith to believe in Him thought, since He has proven His existence.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Jan. 08 2005,3:11)]

Quote[/b] ]For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11

You are overlooking a fact here. First, the Old Testament Saints had faith in God as Saviour and that faith was counted unto them as righteousness. Their animal sacrifices were replaced once and for all by the blood of Jesus Christ His Son.

I thing YOU are overlooking a few things. How hard was it to have faith in God when He was a part of your everyday life. You SAW Him, you HEARD His voice, you EXPERIENCED His miracles and His plagues. Sorry, but that isn't a tough thing to do.

Secondly, you are overlooking WHY God asked for animals to be sacrificed. WHY did God rejoice in the smell of burning flesh? 20Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor… (Gen. 8:20-21)

WHY does God find it necessary to REQUIRE Man to bow down before Him?

Quote[/b] ]There is power in His blood!

His blood pays for our sins.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

His blood does not hold any magical properties. It was regular blood, like yours or mine. If you assert that his blood was magical, then how can you say he was truly MAN. He couldn't have been, he would have been a demigod.

Quote[/b] ]We are bought with the price of His Holy, Powerful, Precious Blood.

Who set the price of BLOOD? Who REQUIRED blood to be spilled? God could have just as easily required something other than pain, misery and bloodshed, could He not?

Quote[/b] ]Acts 20:28 ...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1 Corinthians 6:20, 7:23 ...ye are bought with a price...

The blood justifies us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The blood redeems us. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. Ephesians 1:7

The blood cleans us from all sin.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

By His blood our sins are washed away.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

See the above arguments on WHY it was necessary to have blood spilled.

Quote[/b] ]It is the enemy that was cast down to this world. It is the enemy that causes hurt, sadness, castrophe and pain. The question about the tsaumani sound much like, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Why not ask why good things happen to bad people?

Satan didn't create that tsunami, GOD did. God is the one that created this world and all its natural laws, didn't He? Well at least now I know how Christians can live knowing their God causes these tragedies...you believe He is completely innocent and instead blame Satan!

Quote[/b] ]Romans 1 starting with verse 17 and continuing to the end speaks of God in nature.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power adn Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1: 19~20

Let me get this straight...you expect me to look around at the lovely green grass, the clear blue sky, the gorgeous sunsets, the color of leaves in the fall and attribute all that to a divine maker: God. Yet when I look at volcanoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, you want me to attribute that to Satan?

Please clarify.

 

[Marcylene]

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.  John 1:18

To ask that God step down from His throne and say, "Hi," is asking the impossible!  Can the proof that you guys want simply be acquired by faith?  Isn't faith simply proof without seeing?  "...the evidence of things not seen."  I believe God will go to any lengths to woo us to Himself, but He will/cannot go against His Word. Moses was considered a friend of God whose faith was accounted unto him as righteousness, who spoke with Him at length on several occasions, and he was only able to see God in passing.  In Luke 16:19 ~ 31 is an account of Lazarus and the rich man.  The rich man was begging for Lazarus to be sent to his family for fear that they were also going to ####. Abraham told him:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.  Luke 16:31  

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.  Matthew 15:38

I think when we are set in unbelief, there is nothing that will change that.  To believe God we must have faith, and that only comes by the Word of God.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.  Hebrews 11:6

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  Romans 10:17

All is not lost, however!  God is reading to assist us with anything and nothing is impossible to Him...even remedying our unbelief.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.  Mark 9:24