Your verses:
Matthew 7 Starts out with "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured against you".
Luke 6:37 - Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and yo uwill be forgiven. Give and it will be given to you. A good measure, presed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For the measure yo uuse, it will be measured to you. He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?"
Ok, you quoted part of Matthew 7 and part of Luke 6. Both times you left out the part about "hypocritical" judging. And so far you have ignored the full immediate context.
Both chapters say essentially the same thing: "Matthew 7 stats out with" You said, but what does it finish with and conclude? That all are hypocrites and equally sinful without the ability to overcome? Nope. It concludes with and encouragement from Jesus to judge ones self first and then you can judge others effectively (Judging is not void of love through) I think you have it in your head that judging is the opposite of love rather than flowing from it) and there are degrees of judging. It needs to be measured..appropriately.
Matthew 7 (All of it..once again)
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Now Luke 6 (All of it)
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. Luk 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
They are about "measured" judgment. "appropriate" judging. He makes a statement "Judge not" then he expounds on it. "Here is what I mean".. Judge with appropriate measure, in sincerity and not with malice.
Now for John Chapter 8:3, "He amongst you who is without sin cast the first stone"
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
How far should we take the words of Jesus Christ or any of the biblical writers. For a disobedient child can repeat all of the verses you raised in this discussion in rebellion towards their parents proclaiming, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first rod" or "Judge me not mommy, for you are a sinner to" "We are all equally sinful and blind" What's a parent to do? For God commands parents to discipline their kids out of love/concern for them...And Paul then was wrong when he stated in Romans 13 that our Criminal Justice system should be modeled after Godliness (Terror, wrath and vengeance) on evil doers. Because what he should have said, if your interpretation on this judging issue is correct, is, "Forgiveness, mercy and tolerance, for as Jesus said, "Judge not" and "Cast no stones"..
Having said that lets look at John Chapter 8:3
John 8 Deals with whether these hypocrites, Pharisees and scribes were judging rightly and had the moral authority to execute her for adultery.
He doesn't rebuke the Pharisees for judging, but the measure of the judgment considering 3 things. 1)They are hypocrites for trying to hold Christ to the mosaic law, when they are not obeying it themselves and in so doing trying to expose him as opposed to Moses. 2) Where is the man that was caught with her? If the Pharisees were being true to the law of Moses both should have been brought. They let the man off the hook and 3)she is repentive. Jesus agrees with them that she is an adulterer "Go and sin no more" but he doesn't agree with the punishment in this case and forgives her, warning her to sin no more. Remeber, He was upset with all of Israel that had turned away from God. Cheifly the rulers who were not judging rightly, but misusing their athority. He rebuked them often for not judging after a Godly manner.
Your interpretation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woven
Is Jesus teaching how to judge rightly or forbidding all judging? (rhetorical)
If he is teaching how to judge rightly, then I have rightly judged your interpretation as wrong, without hypocrisy.
If he is teaching one should not judge period, then we would both be hypocrites for judging each others interpretation. (or emotions on this matter)
You said,
"I'm not judging your opinion, in fact I believe I humbly stated that our interpretations were simply different. My interpretation of Matt 7 is that you may judge, provided you are without sin, which obviously none of us are."
That's not what Matthew 7 says though. It says you can and should judge ,but not while you are in the same or worse sin then the person you are judging, So first...stop sinning the same sin you are judging others over. And secondly your judgments need to be measured, if you hope to be effective at helping them. Your belief is that all sins are equal and we are all committing them continuously and can't stop. Or that's what I'm hearing.. If that's true Nathan was as guilty as David and had no moral authority to rebuke him for adultery and murder. Now we know that's false, because God was Nathan's authority.
And my understanding, like yours, is either right or it's wrong. There is no gray area here. So you are judging my understanding as wrong and trying to establish your own as correct. Because if I am right, you would, should not oppose it. You can change the terms of what you are doing or add terms to it, but you can't get away from the fact that you are judging. Your very first response is obviously a judgment against what myself and perhaps others have written in this forum. In fact it's impossible for one to divorce themselves from making judgments about others to some extent. You seem to believe that judging can only be sinful and is always void of love when men do it.
Please explain your interpretation from 7:2 to 7:5.
Jesus expounds on Matt 7:1 He doesn't just leave that verse hanging out there all alone.
My interpretation flows well with the entire OT and NT. Your interpretation runs into extreme difficulty with a massive amount of scripture. (Paul scolds the Corinthian Church for not judging, tells them he is ashamed of them. He kicks a man out for committing incest, he warns believers to disfellowship with other believers who are walking disorderly, committing certain sins) and on and on and on. And yet you say rebuke and judging is wrong. You are actually arguing that good judgment is wrong. That all judging is equally wrong because we are all equally sinful hypocrits. That would be like a parent advertising for a baby sitter and not making and judgments against child molesters who apply. Hey, we are all equally sinful..what difference does it make? Just pull an application out of a hat..Jesus did not argue this. His argument as well as others in the Bible is that we should not be hypocrites in our judging. That it should be measured, equitable, and in sincerity (right motives)
Mopping up.
You said, "
You maintain that my initial post was a judgment, it was more of a plea, a hope for love over anger, lest we forget, anger is as bad as murder in God's eyes"
I assume you are quoting a combination of verses here.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. & 1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
First, you most certainly were judging others (as you continue to do now) as being wrong. Saying it's a plea for love over anger doesn't negate that fact
Secondly hating, wanting to murder your brother and being angry with him are 2 different things.
You will notice in Mat 5:22 the exception.., and it's an important one, angry "without cause". Without getting into a long expository of Mat 5:22 and all it's implications..It should be apparent that Jesus is not speaking against rebuking or anger, but unjustifiable, malicious anger and rebuke. "Without a Cause" a justifiable one. For it was Jesus in Luke 17:3 who said, "If they brother sin against you rebuke him and if he repent, thou shalt forgive him".
With regard to John 3:15 In Lev 19:17 we have this verse: Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him.
So here..hate is defined as apathy and or forgiveness without rebuke. A person who doesn't have enough love for his neighbor to correct him, appose the sin that is destroying him and others is likened to one who hates his neighbor. It really should be self evident that love manifests itself in rebuke, correction, dissention, opposition.
I'm not sure why you brought up these verses. I don't hate my brothers and I'm not angry with you or any believers without a justifiable cause.
I thought of one other thing I would like to add. I shouldn't need to post scripture to defend that the living Word of God teaches love and kindness to everyone, sinners and righteous alike
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Thul, this assumes you are right and the truth is self evident to all. It assumes your definition of love is correct. It's true every believer here should know that God is love, however your argument that His love is always manifested the same way has not been proven by you..or that we should simply forgive everyone. so yes..you do need to back it up scriptural. It's like me saying...I shouldn't have to point out to you that scriptures often shows God and his people rebuking one another and unbelievers. And that Jesus came preaching "Repent" not "You are already forgiven". Jesus said in Luke 17:3 "If a brother sins against you rebuke him and IF he repents forgive". Forgivness is conditional upon repentence, turning towards God. If not Jesus would not preached "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". He would have preached, "You are already forgiven and here is your kingdom"
For example you write the following:
You will argue that showing love involves outward and aggressive rebuking, whereas I believe that showing love involves forgiveness and prayer. I think this is where our biggest hang-up will be, as it seems your theology and my theology are just a little different in that regard.
The truth is, love involves both outward aggressive rebuke, forgiveness and prayer. It's not one or the other.. Our biggest hang-up, the one I have with Christians like you is that you think it's an either or where as I know that one has and can lead to the other: Righteous anger-> Rebuke -> Repentence. God expressed it all as did the prophets and diciples. His followers were sometimes confrontational..and rebuked others. Peter called his listeners "Murderers" Steven called his listeners "Stiff necked" and rebuked them for "Persecuting and Killing " those sent to Israel..Paul blinded a man for attempting to lead someone away from Christ and the result was that "the deputy believed". Paul kicked one out of church and rebuked that church for being so .."Loving" "Forgiving..and "Tolerant"... He also warned Christians to not even eat with other believers who were walking disorderly, committing certain sins. Were they being unloving and hateful?
I tell you Danny, that you are not without sin any more than I, or the adulteress.
Well, you got part of it right..I know I'm not without sin. But you are not without hypocracy here...because you are judging me again..regardless of what euphamism you use.. But I'm not a murderer, nor a child molester. All sins are not equal. If they were, Jesus would not have talked about greater sins, unforgiveable sins, nor various degrees of earthly punishments for crimes commited.
Because we are sinful people, we strive to be Christlike and forgiving. Because we are not without sin, we cannot cast judgment on those who are living in sin. You maintain that my initial post was a judgment, it was more of a plea, a hope for love over anger, lest we forget, anger is as bad as murder in God's eyes.
You could not be more wrong here..Being Christlike In His character means more than just forgiving. That is one aspect. Jesus was not apathetic to the evil of His day. And he did more than just pray about it. He protested it. Jesus was often harsh. He called some people fools, he warned others that they would suffer from his wrath..if they did not repent. He called some,, "Of your father the Devil."."Dogs" and said he was hated because he told the world that what it does is evil.. Some repented, some did not. Your statment condemns Peter, Paul..and every Godly man that warned, judged unbelievers or believers. And your initial post as well as your continued judgment against me here is what it is. I realize it can both be a "plea and a hope" but that doesn't negate the fact that it's also a judgment. The difference between you and I is: I don't mind when people judge me rightly..No..it doesn't feel good, but I respect it..2) I don't divorce love from anger or rebuke as you seem to do. One flows from the other when it's appropriate. 3) I don't feel ashamed or guilty when I judge rightly.
Take care,
Danny
. I have lots of friends who are gay and I am frequently embarrassed by my Christians who give them a hard time and yet they gossip, etc all the time.
