On the subject of a guild merger....

Dukatt

Dukatt

New Member
There will be no merger. The people who were willing to have a guild in a ToJ free environment are already together in Sanctification. Those who still wanted to stay with the ToJ did so with Redeemed.

We are still at the same impass that has been there all along. ToJ or members there in hold a hatred in their hearts towards goblit. What else would you be able to call this? Goblit is one of our Raid Leaders, one of our Guild Leaders and a good friend to everyone who came over when the split happened.

Goblit cannot communicate effectivly with the Redeemed side of TE because she does not have access to their forums. This is a decision made by ToJ and ToJ only. I have heard tale of Redeemed being incharge of moderating the forums for WoW. If this is the case and people (redeemed officers) feel that this ban was unfair and malicious in it's intent, they should lift said ban and let the healing continue.

However this is not the case and Goblit is still banned and it is causing more and more pain. Talk about ripping the scab off of a healing wound! Thanks ToJ for proving that you are failing in your mission. Thank you for allowing your actions to make this point crystal clear. Thank you to the officers of Redeemed for allowing this to continue and keeping this all happening behind the scenes.

Someone in Redeemed or ToJ needs to step up in a big way. Stand up and say enough is enough. The hatred needs to stop, ON BOTH SIDES. Goblit this means you to.

Some of your posts on the redeemed site range from curt to seething and most of that is not necessary. It is just inciting the responses. Not saying that they are justified in the way they choose to deal with you, but both sides here need to make that extra effort.


ToJ ----- Stop overreacting, stop looking down your nose at Goblit and feeling yourselves superior to anyone. Follow your servants heart and check your ego when you pick up your Bible. Find alternative methods of dealing with ideals and people you don't understand.

Goblit ----- Stop looking for fights, stop allowing the actions of a handful of people make you want to run away from all those who embrace and love you. Hold on to what little faith you have left instead of pushing it away with everyone else. Allow those around you, who are offering, help you. Stop taking the world onto yourself. No one can do that, it put me in the hospital, lean on us!


Redeemed ---- Stop fence sitting. Stop turning a blind eye to the actions of your "sponser". Sitting silently while one of your friends is being treated this way and then (for TE and TI people) to show up to raids and just continue on as if things are peachy is wrong. STAND UP....please...


I will be posting this same message on the Sanctification site incase this gets locked or deleted. I am done posting here as of now, until Goblit is no longer banned and things start looking a little more loving rather than the power struggle it has become. I love you all Sanctification and Redeemed alike.
 
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I really should move this thread, since by and large we have not had official discussions about a merger.

I will leave it.

This is a decision made by redeemed leadership and will not be over written by ToJ.

I could also take some direct offense to this post since it contains serious errors. Particularly on the side of Redeemed and what we have or have not done.

Redeemed has a very long history of standing up for what is right and that has gotten me personally between both ToJ and Sanctification.

The issue with Goblit's ban is on going. Tek, Fj and I have all been in an effort to get her reinstated. It is an on going process.
 
please post things here as you would post them in sanctifications forums. If you wish to vew my responses or this ongoing debate come to the sanc forums.
 
Looks like you are taking an issue and giving it some attention to a point where it makes it worst I believe. With it exposed in the open it could lead to a solution and lets hope it does. For all of us being at mature age and believers of Christian faith I don't understand why we have problems like this? I guess its what we can take from the Bible use against others. Christianity is about helping and supporting others and there is no need for war against one another. We do not have to have a problem here and if there is one it should be fix by peaceful means. I personally think of Redeemed as a great guild to be in and if it and ToJ have done wrongs then I forgive them.

Peace shall endure
 
Well said chaos. It's strange, whenever I am in game I have a great experience. I have friends in both guilds that I love talking to! I enjoy raiding and hanging out with people in sanct and redeemed! Then I come to the forums... I usually leave pissed off, wanting to quit the game! On one shoulder I have the "Angel Treebranch" and on the other a "Devil Treebranch". Angel Treebranch likes to play the game, and Devil Treebranch secretly likes to read the forums and get all fired up about dumb stuff.

Maybe we should abandon the forums... Or at least change how we use them. Gnomageddon can post all the crazy things he has for breakfast, icthus can post crazy polls, avesther can give us reports from the previous nights Jazz appreciation group, etc. I love you guys, but I'm done with the forums for a while!!! Devil Treebranch is DEAD!

It wears Angel Treebranch down feeling like I have to take someones side. I don't want to be viewed as a "fence sitter" but I'm done with the drama. I love you all, but if TOJ is the only reason we can't be together, i'll be disappointed. If someone has an issue with TOJ, talk to Icthus. He has done so much behind the scenes to improve our relationship with TOJ. I agree with what avesther said in the sanct forums. When you don't see what is happening behind the scenes, you assume the worst. (Devil Treebranch has the same problem.)

Am I the only one who feels this way? See you in game!
 
Ah, Treebranch ... you are even wiser than the day when you recommended that I download Squishy.

Forums = Good for information libraries, announcements, and joking around.
Forums = Bad for dispute resolution and airing grievances.
I think SamJ/PP put up a post about email communication to this effect many weeks back.

While perhaps it's good that when TE debates, we debate issues of inclusion, tolerance, strict vs. loose constriction, commitment to causes vs. commitment to individuals, ... weighty issues, all ... rather than "oH NoEs u NinJaEd mY LeWt I dEsERvE mOrE DkPs" or "who caused that wipe so we can punish them?" Maybe we have some bizarre version of locker-room chest-thumping so that we are riled up to take out our aggression on BWL ... although it's clearly deeper and more meaningful that that.

When I see confrontational posts or actions it makes me sad. I feel like people's feelings are being hurt, and all of these people are too good, too nice, to deserve to have their feelings hurt by a game ... especially when it's the people who do the most for others who are the ones who get hurt. I have watched as people have had to step back from the game, not because of RL priorities or it wasn't fun any more, but seemingly because collisions with their values were becoming too painful. And that to me is a grand shame, because I am ever so grateful to every one in Redeemed, Sanctification, ToJ, Team Eternity, Team Infinity, Stonemaul, and so on who have given me a place to play and have fun that not only respects, but celebrates, our values.
 
Icthus, I have never doubted the intentions of Redeemed officers or that you guys are ACTING in the way you see best. To some extent, though, you work very hard to keep a lot of this hidden as you make decisions or take actions you choose to keep private.

At the moment, it looks (to the average member without connections anyway) like there's nobody outside of Sanctification who wants Goblilt to be able to post on the forums. Of course in threads like this you say you're working on it, but after such a long time, if it weren't for this thread I too would have thought that there was a consensus to just keep Goblit out.

I'm not particularly mad or anything, and ABSOLUTELY not accusing. After moderating at ChristianForums for a couple years, I TOTALLY understand how most members never DREAM how much leaders actively discuss how to give the benefit of the doubt and second (or tenth) chances. At the same time, having been on both sides, I guess I really recognize how little information a member really gets, and especially when a change or decision takes this long members ARE going to assume the worst.

I don't particularly have an agenda regarding guilds -- I just want to have fun with the same group of friends (as we have been all along thanks to people who forgive like crazy!) I'm not sure this thread was wise as it seems to have been written pretty angrily and I don't agree with everything in the OP. At the same time, I just wanted to note how I do understand Beriale's frustration and where it came from.
 
Dukatt said:
There will be no merger. The people who were willing to have a guild in a ToJ free environment are already together in Sanctification. Those who still wanted to stay with the ToJ did so with Redeemed.
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Has this decision been made by you alone? I am not saying that you are wrong but as a Co-GM of Redeemed we have not been informed of the loss of a possibility of rejoining. So I am curious as to how you came about to this decision is all. We have not even held a discussion between the leadership of the two guilds as to what we could do to bring this about...I'd say this is the feelings of one person not willing to work through a situation, rather than be open to discussions that are otherwise.

Dukatt said:
We are still at the same impass that has been there all along. ToJ or members there-in hold a hatred in their hearts towards goblit. What else would you be able to call this? Goblit is one of our Raid Leaders, one of our Guild Leaders and a good friend to everyone who came over when the split happened.
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Hatred is a strong word, I would say that yes there are members of ToJ who do have a strong dislike for Goblit's actions, but not herself as a person...and if they do then they are sinning and God will deal with them where man will not. The people who have caused Goblit grief in the past have been removed from the picture as best they can be so as to help create a peaceful environment. (I will not name names but certain people are no longer able to admin these forums without authorization, and others have been removed from the picture entirely.)

Dukatt said:
Goblit cannot communicate effectivly with the Redeemed side of TE because she does not have access to their forums. This is a decision made by ToJ and ToJ only. I have heard tale of Redeemed being incharge of moderating the forums for WoW. If this is the case and people (redeemed officers) feel that this ban was unfair and malicious in it's intent, they should lift said ban and let the healing continue.
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Icthus and I have made ourselves available to her via Sanct.'s forums as well as in-game. Also, it should be known that Icthus and I have gained control over the moderation of WoW forums and have been following the procedure set forth to get Goblit's access re-instated. Today her ban was lifted and she is now able to communicate freely in the WoW forums without fear of being moderated by anyone other than Icthus, myself, or Kidan. We asked for patience in this matter, we thank those who have been so for their patience.

Dukatt said:
However this is not the case and Goblit is still banned and it is causing more and more pain. Talk about ripping the scab off of a healing wound! Thanks ToJ for proving that you are failing in your mission. Thank you for allowing your actions to make this point crystal clear. Thank you to the officers of Redeemed for allowing this to continue and keeping this all happening behind the scenes.
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Let's try our best to be civil about the discussions and posts we make, as it is statements like these that get people banned, disciplined or elsewise. If this has been boiling in your heart you need to bring it to Icthus or myself for discussion and or information about the situation at hand. The actions that were taken should show you that Icthus and myself are putting a major emphasis on the relations building between Redeemed and Sanct's members.

Dukatt said:
Someone in Redeemed or ToJ needs to step up in a big way. Stand up and say enough is enough. The hatred needs to stop, ON BOTH SIDES. Goblit this means you to.
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I feel as though Icthus and I have been very understanding and we have both taken much time to discuss the on-goings with Goblit personally, ask her if you don't believe us. :) Icthus has even set a presedence in our full guild meeting that if anyone in Redeemed is found to be speaking ill of Sanct or it's members that they would be severely punished for their actions. We have yet to see any hatred or animocity since this meeting from our members, nor have we been informed of any at this time.

Dukatt said:
Some of your posts on the redeemed site range from curt to seething and most of that is not necessary. It is just inciting the responses. Not saying that they are justified in the way they choose to deal with you, but both sides here need to make that extra effort.
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I agree that we should all watch our actions and posts to avoid further issues, as well as make an extra effort if we are to continue to grow and develop our relationships with one another.

I hope this helps to shed some light and bring about further peaceful resolutions. Let's keep the lines of communication open and free and clear of hatred or animocity. From this point on Icthus and I will be watching and listening intently. If there is an issue we are unaware of, or you feel we are dragging along on, please approach us privately on the matter so we may handle it in a civil and non-disruptive manner.

Thank you for your time and God bless!
 
I might respond to you later on this Fj...when the Sanc forums come back up please refer to them and the many pages of responses there. After reading those and reading my intention on the thread then we can talk.

outside of that you are quoting a message from the beginning of the day and not getting the entire picture.
 
As an aside I do like the direction you guys are going in getting the moderation in the hands of people that fully know and understand the goings on of the guild and the rest of us that post on this forum. Its pretty hard to moderate a board when you dont know everyone as "in depth" as Ichtus and FJ do and its a great step in the right direction:)
 
I'll toss in my 2cp as well. I came to Redeemed after the split, and have no idea what the issues are that led to it. Sure, I've heard rumor and hearsay, but I won't even pretend to have any idea what is really behind it all. The fact is, I have no dog in this hunt, no bones to grind with anyone, no vested interest in what name fills the <....> over my head ingame.

However, it's obvious that some people have been hurt in a very real way, and that those hurts have propigated beyond just those immediately affected. Those are issues that have to be dealt with (Matt 18:15-17 should be our guide). What we need to keep sight of, though, is that the people we're dealing with are fellow believers and, much more importantly, fellow image bearers of Christ. When Joe from Redeemed talks to Bob from Sanctification, he is talking to someone made in the image of God. As Jesus said, "That which you do unto the least of these, you do unto Me." It can also be said that that which we say unto the least of these, we say unto Him. So before you hit the Post button, make sure that your words are worthy of being said to Jesus Himself, because that's exactly who you're talking to, along with the person wearing the other guild tag.

I am sad to say that I've seen words and attitudes exchanged over the past few weeks between people here that don't reflect that standard - from both sides. Starting a post with words along the lines of "Way to misinterpret what I'm saying, dude!" is meant to be devisive and argumentative, not uniting and healing. I'm talking here to all of us, not any one of us in particular, but it needs to be said.

Some of you may know of Roger and Becky Tirabassi. They are fairly well known Christian authors and counselors. They also go to my church. I've had the privilege of working with Roger on several different occasions and going through a program he has developed for conflict resolution. One of his key points is that we need to be very careful with the way we use words when dealing with a conflict. Just as a surgeon doesn't start operating on a patient without anesthetizing them, we need to be sure that we don't start dealing with conflict without anesthetizing the other in the context of our words. He says our anesthesia is affirmation. Before confronting another, affirm them. This does a couple things: 1) it let's them know that we're not 'out to get them', but value them as an indivudual 2) it helps us to remember that we really do value them, and reminds us of why this person is imortant enough to us to engage in the reconciliation process. How wonderful would it be if while we were discussing the future of Redeemed and Sanctification, we were sending affirmations of one another back and forth?

The bottom line is that we all want exactly the same thing - to make this relationship with the other members work. To be able to play and spend our free time with people we like and share the bond of Christ with. Let's all keep this in mind as we work through these issues - we've got the same goal. Also remember that the Bible makes clear the fact that in order to receive forgiveness, we need to give forgiveness. Yes, there are real hurts that exist in this situation, and they need to be addressed, but we all need to approach this issue with grace and love for one another.

/soapbox
 
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I would like to introduce myself in my "official capacity" and then go from there. Separate from my role with CGA, I am also the ToJ mediator. I have watched this debate evolve over the past months and feel that something really needs to be done to resolve the long running and deep seated emotions revolving around the Redeemed/Sanctification Split and other outstanding issues that seem to be festering.

I would love for this matter to be completely resolved as close to the beginning of 2007 as possible so that the guilds can continue to grow in a healthy, productive way. I am willing to meet with everyone and would like to strongly encourage everyone to schedule a time to meet.

Genesis1315
 
I would love a sit down friendly discussion and I appreciate you stepping in and offering that of yourself. Please be sure to read the Sanctification forums to be fully up to speed. I post there as my main Beriale.

Thank you again and let's start working on a date and time.
 
Can you please provide me a link to the forums so I can look at both sides?

I have to operate under ToJ as it is my position, but I do need to see all of the information that is available.

Gen
 
I am one of the people that has been saying, not so flattering statements about TOJ. I have just read your introduction Genesis1315. To say the very least, I am impressed. It took my breath away to hear from a TOJ representative. Nice to meet you......I agree with you and would like to help also in accomplishing the resolve.

Young
 
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