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What about Fatima?[b said:
OK enough bickering, apologize
- Thread starter CCGR
- Start date
What about it? As I said, I have little allowance for miracles to occur, and absolutely none for the Christian god. I'm not sure when this happened (don't feel like going back and finding it), but if pictures were around then, that would be fantastic. How about some non-objective accounts of the event of an unconvinced witness (the witnesses' lack of belief would not necessarily bring about my own - it would atleast give me more trustworthy "facts")?
See, you have to very strongly support this event, because if I were to somehow become convinced and convert to Catholicism, I'd then have to be able to sufficiently support my position and give *evidence* for these miracles that I believe. This is what I'm asking of you.
See, you have to very strongly support this event, because if I were to somehow become convinced and convert to Catholicism, I'd then have to be able to sufficiently support my position and give *evidence* for these miracles that I believe. This is what I'm asking of you.
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Hi Timor,[b said:
Well, jeez, its easy enough to protect your belief system if you totally insulate yourself from everything that might lead you to the contrary.
"Fatima" went on for six months in Portugal ending in October 1917 with the famous "Miracle of the Sun" (and in which a day's downpouring of rain dried up in one miraculous instant).
You only find critics of Fatima the further away you get from it. Historically, Portugal was in the midst of a communist/socialist Masonic Revolution. Most of the Urban Population was against The Church and wanted it to actually be banned our of existence. Only a thin rural population remained Catholic. At one point the Children were actually arrested and placed in jail.
All this changed after Oct 13th. In Portugal there were 3 Million Timors and they were all converted. Something must have happened to convince them, no?
Thaddius
Member
Surely you don't think this is really a mesage from God.
These are quotes from the Fatima
Every bit of this goes against Biblical teachings. Sounds like a hoax played on 3 children to convert thousands of portugese people. Anyway, smoke and mirrors is all it is.
Cory
These are quotes from the Fatima
[b said:
[b said:
[b said:
[b said:
Every bit of this goes against Biblical teachings. Sounds like a hoax played on 3 children to convert thousands of portugese people. Anyway, smoke and mirrors is all it is.
Cory
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Timor,[b said:
Think about what you are saying right now.
You are saying that All of History is to be thrown out. Everything rests on the same Human Testimony as Fatima.
Talking to you is a lot of fun. But I'm not going to play some game of convincing you that you should believe what a whole Country of millions of people had no trouble believing. At a certain point skepticism is pathological, and you have gone way past that point. It is like you have a heavy emotional investment in being an Atheist. So, confronted with overwhelming evidence of the Divine, you choke. Throw out thousands of pages of sworn affidavits because you are holding out for what?
What would convince you? You're own personal Miracle? Rationally it is better to believe 75,000 other people, then to believe your own personal sanity.
There will be a "Big Miracle". Its not far off. However, Our Lady has said that there will not be much time left after the Big Miracle for conversion. If she means the technical process of "conversion" -- going to RCIA Class so you can be Baptized and Confirmed at Easter -- then that means that The Miracle will come after the usual time for enrollment in the RCIA Classes, but that The End will come before the Next Year's Easter arrives. That is the 'technical' explanation. She might have been speaking "conversion" of the Heart -- whatever that is supposed to mean. Anyway, you are given only the Evidence that is now available. There is plenty enough of it if you care to look. But if your little fancy self-image of yourself is what you consider most important -- Timor standing on the Edge of the Cliff above the raging Sea in the midst of a Lightening Storm at moonless Midnight, Shaking His Fist in defiance at the Sky -- then no amount of truth will shake you down out of your tree.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Very good words Leo. Timor you said.[b said:
Mind telling me why you hate YHVH so much and spend time at a christian forum? Well I guess you "infidels" as you call youselves help confirm Matthew 10:22.[b said:
Pop, I have no allowance for miracles from the Christian God because I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he does not exist. BTW, you are an infidel too, to all other religions.
Speaking of other religions, Leo, if we are to trust all "history" to be true, especially the movements and conversions of large groups of people, then does it not follow that because Mohammud went around spreading Islam after seeing an angel, that Islam must also be true? You cannot deny that there are tons of Muslims in the world. Buddhists. Siddhartha Gautama went around speaking such wise words that tons of people began following him - am i to now follow the 8 fold path?
And just to note, I am not so close-minded as you all seem to think I am. I am no more close-minded than all of you - indeed, much less so. Many of you Christians have said yourselves that nothing will ever shake your faith. Well, nothing will ever convince me of a Christian god. Going back to what I started this post with, my thoughts go something like this:
1) The Christian god does not exist. (A premise based upon much study and contemplation.)
2) Miracles involving Mary, mother of Jesus, would be of the Christian God.
3) Miracles involving Mary did not occur.
For me to allow for miracles from the Christian god,, you'd first have to convince me that the He exists.
Speaking of other religions, Leo, if we are to trust all "history" to be true, especially the movements and conversions of large groups of people, then does it not follow that because Mohammud went around spreading Islam after seeing an angel, that Islam must also be true? You cannot deny that there are tons of Muslims in the world. Buddhists. Siddhartha Gautama went around speaking such wise words that tons of people began following him - am i to now follow the 8 fold path?
And just to note, I am not so close-minded as you all seem to think I am. I am no more close-minded than all of you - indeed, much less so. Many of you Christians have said yourselves that nothing will ever shake your faith. Well, nothing will ever convince me of a Christian god. Going back to what I started this post with, my thoughts go something like this:
1) The Christian god does not exist. (A premise based upon much study and contemplation.)
2) Miracles involving Mary, mother of Jesus, would be of the Christian God.
3) Miracles involving Mary did not occur.
For me to allow for miracles from the Christian god,, you'd first have to convince me that the He exists.
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Dibbler
Guest
"... Now I'll give you something to believe. I'm just one hundred and one, five months and a day."
"I can't believe that!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the Queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast..."
- Lewis Caroll, Through the Looking Glass
"I can't believe that!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the Queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast..."
- Lewis Caroll, Through the Looking Glass
CCGR
Member
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Watcher
New Member
[b said:
The eternal power and deity of God are observed by all.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" (Romans 1:18-21).
Although the evidence from conscience, creation, and God's Word is irrefutable, men still choose to resist and oppose God's truth by holding fast to their sin.
Watcher, you do not know me, and you certainly don't know what goes on in my mind. I don't care what Paul says in Romans - I do not see the handiwork of God around me. I do not believe in god because I see no evidence or reason to, not because I selfishly and stubbornly oppose such authority - to do so would be folly. Furthermore, it is ridiculous to propose that I do not "want" their to be an omnibenevolent God watching over me and an afterlife waiting for me where I can possibly see my loved ones again.
Watcher
New Member
You're right, I don't know you but I am praying for you.
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Guest
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i am sorry Lord Jesus; if not knowing i have so much as offended even one of your little sheep.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
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Dibbler
Guest
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." - Thomas H. Huxley[b said:
I stopped believing in impossible things at quite a young age. I'm so glad I saw the thruth.... the real truth not the pretend thruth, (Luk 18:27) for the real thruth did indeed set me free. And even if there is a God I have no doubt it is not be the God of the bible, no way.
I'm sorry but the truth is known, and cannot be unknown.
Impossible things are impossible, period.
CCGR
Member
Evidence?
Look around you, look at God creation! How else can everything be set so perfectly. You think we evolved into this? Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Look around you, look at God creation! How else can everything be set so perfectly. You think we evolved into this? Evolution requires just as much faith as Christianity.
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Let me go into this verse as most dont seem to know what it meens. "That which is impossable to men" We are physical beings and everything we do is physical we can only minipulate things through physical contact and cannot manipulate this world. "but all things are possable with God" God is a spirit and works in the spiritual realm which is higher then the physical one. This physical world is nothing more then a creation and can be manipulated. God is the only one who can manipulate the physical realm however we cannot. So actually nothing is impossable it is our view of what is and is not possable that is impossable because our view is wrong.[b said:
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Dibbler
Guest
No evidence needed, only reason and logic.[b said:
To prove God you would have to show reason beyond an ancient text written and compiled by bronze aged men with political agendas.
What is the God concept?
A spiritual being with no object, and no object outside of itself to reflect its own object, that has existed eternally in a state of nothingness before poofing into existance a physical universe from nothing. It would do this with no energy from which to transform its creation, since it has no object, and no fuel to sustain itself or to power its creation. You may say that with God all things are possible but reason/logic shows it to be impossible.
The eternal Universe without God
Time waits for no man and has no beginning and no end, ie. time cannot be stilled. (reason/logic) Space is as natural as time. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one state to another. Why should that have ever been any different. (reason/logic) The universe did not, therefore, begin from nothing. Nothing is not a beginning or an end. Nothing is just nothing. If there ever was nothing there would still be nothing. (reason/logic) Yet there is a universe, ever changing never still, and there is no reason to believe there was ever not a universe. (reason/logic) No God required.
Evolution requires no faith, only scientific method. There is yet much to discover and we may never know all the answers but it makes perfect sense.(Kent Hovine and his ilk do not practice science and have already been debunked) God, on the other hand, requires a massive leap of faith into the world of magic and the supernatural. Yet there is not one shread of evidence that shows anything supernatural exists or has ever existed. Ancient stories of miracles are not proof of magic and the supernatural.
Faith is ok if you want instant answers but it is not proof and it certainly isn't based in reason and logic.
CCGR, I've enjoyed this talk
Peace
Edit: and btw, I was Catholic up until the age... of reason.