Angryson
New Member
or Happymeal 
New Raiding, Ver. 80
- Thread starter Mordos
- Start date
Where
New Member
with McNuggets?
CGamer
Gnome Priest
I have an issue I need to speak with an officer about and it's VERY serious...My computer died.
Who do I need to speak to about dipping into the officer fund to purchase my new computer?
Where
New Member
I think you need to talk to an engineer to get one crafted
Proudfoot
New Member
All loot systems will have their issues. I raided at 60 with a broken DKP system and could never convince the officers in our guild to change it (We all voted for changes). Being the guild leader and attending every raid I benifited GREATLY from our system but I didn't think that was fair. We gave out about twice the DKP that was possible to be spent every raid and there was a lot of "bloat" in the system. In this system someone who showed up every other week could never get an item before someone who was there every week. Basically if you'd been there for more raids you had priority forever.
I liked the Zero-sum DKP system but even that's not perfect. You have to account for people leaving the guild, changing mains, DE'd items, and hoarding. Personally I like the idea of giving out a little more DKP then is spent but putting in a decay mechanic. For instance, every week/month or so EVERYONE get's their total DKP reduced by a percentage (15-20% say). This would discourage hoarding and allow newer people to "catch up" to those who have been raiding forever while still allowing old timers priority most of the time.
My dual spec will be Ret/Holy. I have no interest in tanking on my pally and I kinda miss healing (occasionally) like I did in MC/BWL. I'll be building up both sets but Ret will be priority.
I liked the Zero-sum DKP system but even that's not perfect. You have to account for people leaving the guild, changing mains, DE'd items, and hoarding. Personally I like the idea of giving out a little more DKP then is spent but putting in a decay mechanic. For instance, every week/month or so EVERYONE get's their total DKP reduced by a percentage (15-20% say). This would discourage hoarding and allow newer people to "catch up" to those who have been raiding forever while still allowing old timers priority most of the time.
My dual spec will be Ret/Holy. I have no interest in tanking on my pally and I kinda miss healing (occasionally) like I did in MC/BWL. I'll be building up both sets but Ret will be priority.
Hey Everyone 
I'm new here - just transfered from another server. But I need to make my 7 day post, and I thought I might be able to add to the discussion.
I've been involved with a lot of loot systems in the past - DKP and Loot Council I've seen mentioned here. One that I haven't seen mentioned is Suicide Kings.
I'm not advocating any one - I think all can be fair if managed properly - but I think people generally have a negative misconception about Suicide Kings, yet it might be the type of loot system that will work well. A lot of what I have seen in the replies is people worried about "hoarding" dkp, or attendance issues (people who cannot attend every raid will have less dkp, etc.). While both of those issues can be addressed with various dkp systems, from my experience, Suicide Kings is just easier to manage.
With suicide kings you first generate a random list of people (however many you have) which will rank people 1 through X. After the list is generated, you use the list to determine who is "up" for a drop. So if you have a paladin at rank 1 and at rank 5, a paladin plate item drops, the paladin at rank 1 gets first dibs on it. If he doesn't want the item, the rank 5 person gets a shot. You just go through the list. In a raid, to make things go quickly, the loot officer can quickly link the item, everyone who wants the item can say something like "1" or "me" in raid, and whomever is highest on the list gets the item.
Once a person gets an item, they are "suicided." The rank 1 paladin may now be rank 30 (if there are 30 total people on the list). In essence, it's a true "take turns" kind of system - everyone gets a turn. After the rank 1 paladin gets suicided, everyone else moves up on the list - so the rank 5 paladin may now be rank 4.
That's a pure suicide kings system. Where everyone moves up the list when someone is suicided regardless of whether or not they are present in the raid. However, that tends to leave people who never show up hogging the top (because they get to move up regardless of whether they show up). People hogging the top may be fine, because if they aren't there, they obviously can't loot anything, and it goes to the next highest on the list.
But if someone doesn't show up for a month, then shows up for one raid, they may well be number 1 and entitled the very first upgrade that drops. So, a way to deal with that: if someone isn't in attendance on a given night, there position is "frozen." So, if rank 1 paladin takes loot, rank 4 paladin is absent, rank 5 paladin can move up to rank 3 after rank 1 paladin is suicided. Rank 5 paladin essentially moves ahead of rank 4 paladin, but rank 4 paladin still keeps his spot (nothing lost by being absent). The next time rank 4 paladin attends a raid, he'll still be rank 4 and eligible to move up higher (or take loot if no one is ahead of him that needs it).
If people are still crowding the top, people can also be suicided after a chosen number of days of non-attendance. Perhaps if someone misses 5 raids in a row, they can be suicided.
My experience with this system is that it is fair, and really easy to manage - you only have to manage the list (and there are some add-ons that do that). It also means that if 30 people are online, the five people that couldn't make it into a raid don't get penalized (they can still move up the list because they are present, ready to raid). Also, you don't have to deal with what is essentially an economy w/ dkp.
Anyway, those are the basics - for pure information purposes. I've been part of successful dkp systems as well, so it all can be worked out to benefit the guild as a whole.
I'm new here - just transfered from another server. But I need to make my 7 day post, and I thought I might be able to add to the discussion.
I've been involved with a lot of loot systems in the past - DKP and Loot Council I've seen mentioned here. One that I haven't seen mentioned is Suicide Kings.
I'm not advocating any one - I think all can be fair if managed properly - but I think people generally have a negative misconception about Suicide Kings, yet it might be the type of loot system that will work well. A lot of what I have seen in the replies is people worried about "hoarding" dkp, or attendance issues (people who cannot attend every raid will have less dkp, etc.). While both of those issues can be addressed with various dkp systems, from my experience, Suicide Kings is just easier to manage.
With suicide kings you first generate a random list of people (however many you have) which will rank people 1 through X. After the list is generated, you use the list to determine who is "up" for a drop. So if you have a paladin at rank 1 and at rank 5, a paladin plate item drops, the paladin at rank 1 gets first dibs on it. If he doesn't want the item, the rank 5 person gets a shot. You just go through the list. In a raid, to make things go quickly, the loot officer can quickly link the item, everyone who wants the item can say something like "1" or "me" in raid, and whomever is highest on the list gets the item.
Once a person gets an item, they are "suicided." The rank 1 paladin may now be rank 30 (if there are 30 total people on the list). In essence, it's a true "take turns" kind of system - everyone gets a turn. After the rank 1 paladin gets suicided, everyone else moves up on the list - so the rank 5 paladin may now be rank 4.
That's a pure suicide kings system. Where everyone moves up the list when someone is suicided regardless of whether or not they are present in the raid. However, that tends to leave people who never show up hogging the top (because they get to move up regardless of whether they show up). People hogging the top may be fine, because if they aren't there, they obviously can't loot anything, and it goes to the next highest on the list.
But if someone doesn't show up for a month, then shows up for one raid, they may well be number 1 and entitled the very first upgrade that drops. So, a way to deal with that: if someone isn't in attendance on a given night, there position is "frozen." So, if rank 1 paladin takes loot, rank 4 paladin is absent, rank 5 paladin can move up to rank 3 after rank 1 paladin is suicided. Rank 5 paladin essentially moves ahead of rank 4 paladin, but rank 4 paladin still keeps his spot (nothing lost by being absent). The next time rank 4 paladin attends a raid, he'll still be rank 4 and eligible to move up higher (or take loot if no one is ahead of him that needs it).
If people are still crowding the top, people can also be suicided after a chosen number of days of non-attendance. Perhaps if someone misses 5 raids in a row, they can be suicided.
My experience with this system is that it is fair, and really easy to manage - you only have to manage the list (and there are some add-ons that do that). It also means that if 30 people are online, the five people that couldn't make it into a raid don't get penalized (they can still move up the list because they are present, ready to raid). Also, you don't have to deal with what is essentially an economy w/ dkp.
Anyway, those are the basics - for pure information purposes. I've been part of successful dkp systems as well, so it all can be worked out to benefit the guild as a whole
.
Goodwone
New Member
Hi Marcaile, yeah for new member post!!! nice post, thanks and welcome! as far as the system, i'll let more experienced raid leaders juggle that outcome, i think we are going to give dkp and whirl.
Proudfoot
New Member
I'd like to speak with the officers regarding dkp if that's possible.
john3610
New Member
Proudfoot
New Member
There's quite a bit of maths involved... I'll try and figure out how to upload an excel doc to google docs or something.
*EDIT* Ok, here's the link to filefront where I've uploaded the Excel doc.Linky!
The basic issue with the current system is that item prices are static. All shoulder pieces for instance are 6 points whether it's from the first boss of 10 man Naxx or 25 man Kel'thuzad. There are many more points being given for a 25 man raid then can ever be spent. From what I can tell early 10 mans are right about perfect with the points given/spent ratio. As you can see in the Excel doc there is about a 16% inflation on early 10 man bosses, and that's fine. For the 25 man version of Spider Wing there is a 58% inflation ratio and that's way high. Simply doubling the prices of the items in 25 man naxx puts the inflation down to 17%. I wouldn't recommend that exact fix though; I'd rather see a sliding scale where Saphiron and Kel drops cost more. Since later bosses in Naxx25 will reward more points then early wings prices could start at double the current prices and go up from there.
I spoke with Bill last night and he said that the officers had decided do go with the "decay" system and I like that. If we curb the inflation to reasonable levels then the decay won't have to be very large, like maybe 15% every month or so. Whatever the decided number is it should be known by all. Having a transparent system will go a long way to dispeling any percieved bias (and people wondering where their points went).
No, this isn't some secret plot to take all the phat lewts. I just want a system that everyone can be secure knowing is fair and balanced, and will remain so for the long run. I figured this would be a good time to bring up my thoughts before it's to late to change anything.
Thanks for listening,
ProudFEET!
*EDIT* Ok, here's the link to filefront where I've uploaded the Excel doc.Linky!
The basic issue with the current system is that item prices are static. All shoulder pieces for instance are 6 points whether it's from the first boss of 10 man Naxx or 25 man Kel'thuzad. There are many more points being given for a 25 man raid then can ever be spent. From what I can tell early 10 mans are right about perfect with the points given/spent ratio. As you can see in the Excel doc there is about a 16% inflation on early 10 man bosses, and that's fine. For the 25 man version of Spider Wing there is a 58% inflation ratio and that's way high. Simply doubling the prices of the items in 25 man naxx puts the inflation down to 17%. I wouldn't recommend that exact fix though; I'd rather see a sliding scale where Saphiron and Kel drops cost more. Since later bosses in Naxx25 will reward more points then early wings prices could start at double the current prices and go up from there.
I spoke with Bill last night and he said that the officers had decided do go with the "decay" system and I like that. If we curb the inflation to reasonable levels then the decay won't have to be very large, like maybe 15% every month or so. Whatever the decided number is it should be known by all. Having a transparent system will go a long way to dispeling any percieved bias (and people wondering where their points went).
No, this isn't some secret plot to take all the phat lewts. I just want a system that everyone can be secure knowing is fair and balanced, and will remain so for the long run. I figured this would be a good time to bring up my thoughts before it's to late to change anything.
Thanks for listening,
ProudFEET!
Last edited:
Odale
Active Member
Gilga showed me how to do it! I know his secrets!!
Give me a tell if he doesn't help you.
Give me a tell if he doesn't help you.
Proudfoot
New Member
Updated last post
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
Decay is good if its based on a weight of the frequency of raids and time. If it is just time then the points won't be given an ample opportunity to be spent. That being said attendance and full raids could affect this as well.
nattyg
New Member
until you get like 5 naxx clears full of nothing but hunter gear 
...no, really...
...no, really...
Where
New Member
sounds like MC back in the day lol
*WALL*
New Member
or lock gear
Proudfoot
New Member
You can't base a system on the "what if". You have to use the law of large numbers which says that given a long enough time everything will drop at exactly the rate blizzard designed it to.
Really even if hunter stuff did drop for a long time... it wouldn't matter. If you aren't in competition for that gear then it's irrelevant to your position in dkp. Hunters would spend a lot of points up front but would have all their gear. Would they stop raiding then? maybe... or change mains, I've seen it before.
No comments on what I said?
Really even if hunter stuff did drop for a long time... it wouldn't matter. If you aren't in competition for that gear then it's irrelevant to your position in dkp. Hunters would spend a lot of points up front but would have all their gear. Would they stop raiding then? maybe... or change mains, I've seen it before.
No comments on what I said?
Proudfoot
New Member
Decay could be based on time. It would be way too hard to weigh when/if it's time to do the decay. Much easier from a RL perspective to have a set date each month I'd think.
Also, a previous system I'd used used a decay mechanic that multiplied everyones dkp by a percentage (say .85 if we are using a 15% decay). This would reduce everyone's dkp by 15% if they were in the positive numbers and increase everyone's dkp that was in the negative. Of course this decay mechanic could never bring anyone below zero or above zero if they were negative. I really liked it.
nattyg
New Member
The law of large numbers is only applicable in a truly random situation...the RNG is not a random situation. Computers can simply "simulate" randomness...they're not random. Emprical events suggest that Blizzard's RNG isn't terribly random.
I'm not sure how it would be irrelevant? You said a general decay, which applies across the board, so if (/cough, when) things drop that are simply unusable or downgrades, you're penalized. This is doubly so when there's a lack of progression, however said member puts in the effort and shows up week in and out to help the team progress (and doesn't DIAF (or slime as it may be) every week). This situation can literally lead to people not seeing new items for months, all the more so with the way itemization is done now and that pretty much every caster, healers included, may be rolling on a single piece of gear.
So...decay could be okay, but a heartbeat, based on attendance, should refresh the decay interval for an individual.
Another option to consider would be time based raiding / bid system (although it sounds like the decision is already made, so that may be too late). Take a look at the "DKP" on www.leftoversraiding.org. It's fairly straightforward and effectively awards people for participation rather than a boss kill and only provides three types of bids (preventing price fixing) which is ultimately based on who at a particular bid level has the most points to spend.
galatian
Active Member
i wouldnt be complaining if hunter stuff dropped! We have so many i might actually get gear that way! =P
but i think its kinda sad that you go straight to saying that once ppl get geared they will go to an alt. This isnt normally the case and the ppl that just keep raiding even after getting gear or having better all ready have to keep chugging along. Its not about the individuals its about the guild. I mean its a game we are suppose to be having fun and enjoying the time in fellowship with other christians not about hey i want this bow and if i dont get it i quit! kinda mentality
but i think its kinda sad that you go straight to saying that once ppl get geared they will go to an alt. This isnt normally the case and the ppl that just keep raiding even after getting gear or having better all ready have to keep chugging along. Its not about the individuals its about the guild. I mean its a game we are suppose to be having fun and enjoying the time in fellowship with other christians not about hey i want this bow and if i dont get it i quit! kinda mentality