Misguided questions about stuff including...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Geez, why do I waste my time even posting to you guys? I may as well just say it in so many words: "All my talk and debate has had zero effect on you."
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Um, what affect has OUR debate had on YOU? You seem just as blindly zealous and fanatic about your religion as ever.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mustard, let me tell you: all sin is sin. It doesn't matter the sin, truly. The thing of God is this: it only takes one sin. John 8:24 says, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He (the Savior (God)), you will die in your sins."
John 8:34-36 says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the hosue forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."
Man is a slave to sin. Our father Adam sinned. He may not have lived in it forever, but we do: we are his descendants, and our descendants shall live in it forever.
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I can take this post to mean tow different things, either you are saying that we have to pay because of the mistake of people who came thousands of years before us. Or You are saying that no matter what the sin is, the fact that we sin at all means we deserve eternal torment. With no distinction between murder and impure thoughts. Either way seems very wrong to me and even if I did believe in god I wouldn't support his obvious decietful setup of the human race.
 
tell me is there a fundamental difference between going 10 and 50 mph over the speed limit?

no both are breaking the same law, yet from a human perspective the second is punished worse than the first.


so it is with sin. there is no fundamental difference between sins. Just what punishments our human brothers give to us for doing them. but the fact of the matter is, any punishment humans gives us doesn't erase the fact we did sin. Only Christ can do that.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]so it is with sin. there is no fundamental difference between sins. Just what punishments our human brothers give to us for doing them. but the fact of the matter is, any punishment humans gives us doesn't erase the fact we did sin. Only Christ can do that.
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How is punishment among humans even relevant, 75 years of punishment as opposed to eternity? I would hope that our great and powerful creator would be just enough to see the difference between 10 mph and 50. There is a reason we give different punishments depending on the action here on earth, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Least of all not from those deities who are supposed to be superior to ourselves.
 
The debate has had zero effect on me, as all my talk as had on you. Or has it? I dunno.
We have all sinned. One sin is the same as another. Tell me, is having an affair with your wife's hot sister so much different from having an affair with your hot friend? Should your wife be upset about it at all? You know, making a vow about "forsaking all others."
If so, enlighten me to the differences, besides the obvious lineage one.
Sin is sin with GOd. There is no difference in its severity. Another example: I murder you. You, Mustard. I go to your house and kill you. I had no reason for it. So I got sent to jail or executed. However, let's take it from a different stance: I murder you for running over my dog, or for not paying back a 100,000 dollar debt to me. What is the difference? You're still dead.
So it is.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Feb. 09 2003,6:42)]We have all sinned. One sin is the same as another.
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Okay, so then, according to your own words, flawed human justice system has more insight into the concept of justice than God? There used to be the time when you had both of your hands cut off for stealing ANYTHING, be it a banana or someone else's coinpurse. Right now, I believe, the act of cutting hands off for stealing would be defined as atrocity. We, humans, have learned the meaning of compassion. Do you think we act more in the fashion God would like us to act?

And then, if yes, why does God, effectively, continue to cut hands off in retaliation for stealing bananas? Do as I say and not as I do, then?
 
Have you stolen a banana or a coinpurse?
And if I believe correctly, you're still alive, aren't you? I would construe that as compassion on God's part: not wiping humanity out for every sin committed. It's called chances at redemption.
I would think God is a compassionate and merciful God if he has spared me so far for stealing both bananas and coinpurses from him. He's yet to kill me for them. Would your authorities back in the day have that much mercy on me, for millions of bananas and coinpurses? No.
Would this judicial system of America spare me for stealing Bill Gates' money, or for impersonating someone else and using their credit cards? No. They wouldn't. They would toss me in jail and make a big riot of it all. To date, God has yet to go and whine to the people of Earth about all my sins. And for that I am glad.
And made in the image of a merciful God, I would say that, yes, I expected man to become as such, more merciful, and more tolerant than "back in the day."
Besides, you've heard what Jesus said, I'm sure. Or have you even read the Bible and blindly attack...? "He who has no sin, cast the first stone." That was in regards to the men who dragged an adulteress after she was caught being naughty with another man. They were all prepped to stone her, but they wanted to see Jesus' opinion on it first. He gave them it, and she walked away with his commandment, "GO AND SIN NO MORE." If an adulteress could do it, can't I?
Man will never act in the fashion God desires, due to sin. But man is made after God's image, and he emulates those traits of God in a cruder manner, as best we can at times, and as worst as possible at others. I've seen the dark side of man in myself and Christian peers at my school. No man is perfect.
And I think my point is made of God not cutting off our hands...we're still cursed to hell, you know that, for sin. There's no manly escape from it, but through belief in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for you. You, Damar. Jesus died for you. It's your choice to accept him. He won't cut off your hands until you're dead. ANd then it's too late.
As for me, I've made my choice.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I would construe that as compassion on God's part: not wiping humanity out for every sin committed.
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Uhhh, not destroying us is god showing compassion? You really are doing a better job than I could of making god seem like a total cold hearted tyrant....
 
Why so? Would a cold hearted tyrant show any mercy? No. If you slipped up once, or disrespected him, he would destroy you with no mercy.
God has plenty of mercy for us, and he dispenses it in generous proportions. I will not complain against it. At all.
Tell me how God is a tyrant for allowing us life.
 
Gotta agree with Mustard; Ultima, you're doing more damage to yourself than you're hoping to do to me
smile.gif


Do you realize that "God allowing us to live" is quite a miniscule display of mercy and compassion compared to the supposed eternity of suffering and (your favorite) gnashing of teeth?

It's like having a wasp that you caught in a jar... you can feed it for a while and it'll survive and you can watch it buzz around. One day you stick a finger in and it stings you. You feed it some more, but it doesn't get any less ornery, because wasps generally don't like being confined to jars. So one day you squash it, and say something to the tune of "I gave you a chance to be a well-behaved, well-fed insect in a jar, where you don't have to contend with other wasps, hunt for food or worry about being eaten by a bird. You didn't want to submit to me, now !!DIE!! for not accepting my mercy and benevolence."

Maybe that's merciful - the poor creature at least won't have to be stuck in your jar anymore - but really, if you wanted to display compassion, all you had to do is let the damm thing out.

Compared to God's supposed omniscence and limitless power, we're all wasps in a jar of faith. If God first made us independent, then imposed the necessity of submission (faith-slavery) on us, and then chose to send us to Hell when we effectively stung his finger, then he's sadistically trying to break our nature. Which is the MO of every cold-hearted tyrant.

Hey, Ultima, do you read comics or those are satanic too? You'd really like Dr. Doom: he promises happiness in exchange for his subjects' "total and blind obedience"...
 
<applauds Damar>

Although I feel you're walking the line between debate and ad hominem attacks, I also feel that Ultima is too, and whatever I might think of your tactics that is a #### good illustration of the whole point we've been trying to make here.

Well done!

Eon
 
Heeh. Thanks. BTW I catch myself thinking that I should tone down the ad hominem component, but... I'm one aggressive bastich.
 
Well, although I enjoy a finely crafted offensive as much as the next sports fan, I DO feel that it sometimes detracts from the impact of your points. People get focussed on HOW you say what you say, not WHAT you're saying...

If it were ME (and it has been in the past - LOL!) I would tone it down. And I'm an aggressive bastich too! ;)
 
I shrug.
If you were a believer, Damar, you would realize that humans aren't wasps. We're not insects. We're being created in the image of God, here to serve and to offer ourselves up as a living sacrifice.
If you don't know what that means, I recommend a daily Bible study.
Now, as far as I know, God is not an almighty wasp.
And here's another thing: we're not captives. He hasn't removed us from apart the rest of the hive: we're all in it. Your analogies need significant help. We're all a part of the hive. We're not free from it. Satan is our queen, the prince of this world. He roams it, and roams like a lion, seeking whom he may devour. That means to be eaten. To be killed. Our queen is not on our side. And the hive is not the place of Christians. God shall not remove the Christians until it is time. For, if you recollect from your extensive Bible studying, God did not come to this world to bring peace, but to bring a sword. He's not here to be the world's friend: He is our Rock and our Cornerstone. He is the foundation of it all, and if you rest on him, you cannot be shaken. But this rock also serves to break the world. The world shall be walking and it shall trip and be shattered against this Rock, and be undone by this cornerstone.
I'm not here to nod meekly and step off to the side and allow you to say, "Look, I'll do my thing, and you'll do yours." I'm not going to praise God while you're ####ing yourself. Jesus Christ called us to evangelize unto this world, and he is with me, even to the ends of this world.
Now, as far as I know, your beliefs leave you standing alone and on one leg, all by yourself, and you will fall, for you have no one to hold you up. I do.
 
Way to make a world - I mean, you COULD make a world where none of this needs to happen, but INSTEAD you make a world drowned in sin and iniquity, give it to an insane psychopath with a Napoleon complex and virtually unlimited power, and deliberately flaw each of your creations.

Then you come down and wreck the whole thing for not being perfect. Sure. And that's OUR fault, somehow, I suppose?

Eon
 
Church of God the Psychopath. I could almost get behind that. Heeh.

Oh, Ultima. That's my biggest problem with you and your kind. You don't live and let live; no, you intrude upon people's lives, spout off nonsense, and employ classic scare tactics (fear, doubt, uncertainty anyone?), spreading intolerance and hate all the while. It wouldn't be so bad if your theory wasn't so flawed. I admire your raw zeal (we were all young once)... ok, maybe not, it simply amuses me... but you cannot argue your points at all. There's no shred of logic to your beliefs, no backup other than your rock-solid persuasion of the fact that God's behind you on this one. Everything is shrouded in raw beliefs and mysterious ways. To each preacher that attempts to waste my time, I tell the same thing: PLEASE, TRY TO MAKE SENSE, AND I MIGHT LISTEN. None did so far.

P.S. I knew one kid who had a rock-solid persuasion that he could fly. They are still scraping him off the sidewalk...
 
Eon
God made the world.  God's creation were given  salvation through ignorance.  They didn't know the difference between good and evil.   Yet humanity choose to do something wrong, and with that came the knowledge of good and evil.   Yes, God could have made the world where none of this happened, but that world would be one without free will, and personal choice.  That world would be one where we have as much understanding of dynamic concepts of good and evil as the neighborhood cat.  God allows us to acheive that perfect salvation again, through the blood of His son, yet it's not a salvation through ignorance, rather it's a salvation through grace.


Damar
"you and your kind?"  I do have to wonder why people who throw fits because Christains are exclusionists concerning their beliefs, love to use that stereotypically exclusionist and demeaning arguement. As for live and let live, I do not force people to listen.  I personally don't stand on the street corner and scream as the cars sweep by.  I show Christ's love through daily living.  If asked I explain how I can remain calm amongst trails and tribulations.  Now tell me, how does the teachings of Christ spread hate? How does the teachings of Christ spread intolerance?  The teachings of Christ are to love everyone, obey His will, and live a good life free from sin, and moderate in consumption.  How is that hateful and intolerant?  Is it because I say "You shouldn't lie or curse." ?  Is it because I say "Don't steal, rape, have extra-maritel sex?"

You say there is no logic behind my beliefs.  Post the belief you believe is without logic, and I'll logically explain it.  You might not agree with my logic, but it will exist.  You say to please try and make sense, yet none did so far."  How has anything I have said not made sense? Or if questioned, not explained.  Just becaues you do not desire to or have the ability to percieve the sense behind it does not make it lacking.
 
Yes Kidan, you and your kind, because I'm not one of you.

You might not stand on the corner screaming. Someone else does. He's still one of you.

Hate and intolerance. The easiest example would be the homophobia, but that's been beaten to death. How about the intolerance towards other religions? You conveniently seem to forget that EVERYONE has a holy book and thinks that it's no less holy than yours. What right do you have telling them that their religion is wrong, their image of God sucks and they'll burn?

Illogical beliefs. "Abstain from all appearance of evil" (looking like you're doing it doesn't mean you are actually doing it). "Pornography is a wicked sin". (worse than drugs and alcohol apparently?) "You're God's son, repent or burn" (even if I REALLY hated my kid, I wouldn't want him to burn). That's just some...
 
Of course that is debatable.

Now show me a scripture that supports homophobia (as defined as being scared of or hating homosexauls)? It does not exist.

Those who choose a homosexual lifestyle have the same restrictions on sin and sex as those who choose a heterosexual lifestyle. The only place for sex is within the marriage bed, being marriage being reserved for 1 man and 1 woman.


Other religions. Christianity is an exclusionist religion. There is only 1 way into heaven. We are not hateful or intolerant. But there can be only 1 truth ,there is no such thing as relative truth. Truth is a digital concept, true or false. Christain is true, I accept this, and because I accept this, I cannot accept that another religion is also true. To do so I would become false myself. I am not saying, 'burn your book' I am saying 'Is that really true?' If your religion allows for relative truth, then how could you ever know what is true, right and good? Intolerance implies ignorance. Prior to any discussion about 1 religion over another, I learn about the other religion, due to the oft discussions with Eon, I am learning more about the Aesir.

But when you get down to it I am not intolerant, I just don't think they're right, and there is a world of difference between those two things. Would I deny them their book if they choose not to accept Christ? No. Would I deny them their chance to convert me? No. Would I continue to try to persuade them (lovingly) that Christ is the way, the truth and the life? Yes. But doing so does not make me intolerant or hateful.


as for illogical beliefs.
appearance of evil. We are told that the active planning of a sin, is the same as committing the sin. Also, staying near the appearance of evil (like hanging out outside a strip club) could promote others to sinning. That is why we are to flee the appearance of evil, not for ourselves but for others.


pornography is sin. all sin is a wicked sin, none greater than others, all worthy of death.

We only are God's son, when we become heirs alongside Christ (i.e. we accept salvation) While God wants none to burn, He MUST punish those who sin. It is the just and righteous thing to do, and since He is a righteouse and just God, He will do so. He plainly provides a way out, sonship with Christ. To not accept this freely given gift, is akin to throwing on the wood for the fire yourself.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The only place for sex is within the marriage bed, being marriage being reserved for 1 man and 1 woman.
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What about in places that allow gay marriage?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]He plainly provides a way out, sonship with Christ. To not accept this freely given gift, is akin to throwing on the wood for the fire yourself.
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A better term for this is would be extortion.
 
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