Misguided questions about stuff including...

Is there some grand message to Avatar's post that I'm missing, or is it just "My God rules and yours doesn't, join me or burn!"?
 
You know Kohael: that seems to be the message that Christ is giving. Love me, obey me, and avoid hell. Gee, and I think he also said for us to go out in the world and share the message of his love.
Hmm. Perhaps you're right?
That's not my point, however. I'm not going to break your arm to love God. God wouldn't want that. I'm just telling you my beliefs, and what I think.
 
At least he's honest, Kohael... And at least they're reluctant to leave the actual burning to someone else these days... ;)

Eon
 
I figure there's not much of a reason to worship a deity who can't even muster the energy to come down and threaten me himself, and has to leave the job to Ultima Avatar.
 
Maybe I'm the Voice of God?
Aaaaaaaah, stepping on some heretical ground there.
No. I don't even pretend to know the Will of God. I only voice what He has said in the Bible. He gives us a free gift: the thing about gifts is you can take it or return it. That's all. You don't have to accept his gift, but I ask you guys: What do you have to lose by accepting something free? Some fun stuff you like to do? That it? That's pretty lame.
Regardless, Kohael, Jesus Christ said, "Blessed is he who believes because he does not see." I haven't seen God. But I believe in him. PEople had God right before them, and they didn't believe. More blessed are those who believe though they don't believe.
So when God does come down and reveal his will, my friend, I won't be here any longer to tell you what he says in his Scriptures. You're either have to go and look for yourself, or join the Enemy. HAve fun.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"A gift demands a gift - be careful in the giving. It is better to give nothing than to give too much." Snorri the Elder
Click to expand...

That's a quote from the Havamal. In illustration I would say this; If somebody gives you a cup cake they're saying "I'm giving you a cupcake - I have a spare right now that I don't really want to eat but, in the future, you may have two cupcakes when I have none.". When somebody gives you a convertible automobile they're saying "I own you. This is a gift so big that you couldn't possibly hope to repay me.".

Be careful of people who try and give you large, large gifts.

Eon
 
hmm...and here when I give a gift, I'm giving it with a joyful spirit, expecting nothing in return.

i.e. donations to the Salvation Army, or the Red Cross or even the volunteer fire dept. I don't receive a tax break since I don't keep the donation receipts. I don't expect things from these people. and in a lot of the cases, I hope to never use their services


This is the same way that Christ gives His gift to those who will accept it. He gave His life freely so those who are lost can be saved. So those who are doomed through their sin, can receive eternal life with Him.
 
The big difference though, is that you don't punish the salvation army if they refuse your gift. If one were to refuse Jesus' gift, they are given the most possible punishment imaginable.
 
No, you must understand, the gift that Jesus gives is salvation FROM that punishment

The gift is slavation.

We accept the gift we receive eternal life
we don't accept the gift we get the punishement that our sins require
 
Punishment? I'm just living my life in the cess pit that we call Earth - doing the best that I can with what I can.

What the hell do I deserve PUNISHMENT for? For not living up to some crackpot set of dysfunctional values, values that are supposed to have been set up specifically to BE unattainable, and values that seem to be beyond the reach of even the arbiter?

And *I* need "punishment" for my "sins"? What's next? Flogging for everyone who doesn't score 110% in their next written exam?

Because I will not put the collar that is offered to me around my neck? Because I choose another way?

I tell you what - anybody coming around to "punish" my kinfolk and I had better bring help. We're expecting a fight around about the end of time, we're supposed to be defeating the forces of EVIL you know...

Eon
 
The extent of many people's "sins" are lying to women when they ask how they look, or maybe speeding. Or maybe having "impure" thoughts every now and again when a Victoria secret commercial comes on. If that is what deserves eternal torment, then I really have to wonder about whoever is making the rules...
 
Mustard, that is far, far, far below being an understatement. That is an entire misperception on your part.
People's sins aren't limited to visual lusts or "white" lies. There's no limit to mankind's sins. For every law we have, there is a sin for breaking that law. The Bible says, "Without the Law, there is no sin."
ALL people's sins range deep into lust, deep into lies, deep into anger, deep into hate, deep into murder, deep into every sin known to man. If you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. God can stand NO sin. Therefore, if you commit so much as one, you may as well have committed them all.
However: for every sin, there is a different punishment, minus the fact of a one-way ticket to Hell. Man can punish you. If you steal a candy bar, you'll be reprimanded most likely, lecured by parents, and do work or something for a few hours at the grocery store for free. If you murder: you'll be tried, and sentenced, maybe to death. The severity of the sin differs the severity of the judgment.
To say: most people commit a lowly sin in all their life is far from true Mustard.
And to you Eon, what do you need punishment for? Have you ever, willingly, or unknowingly, committed someting against someone in your entire life, or do you consider yourself perfect?
Every man is born into sin. It is the seed of mankind that carries sin. So, even those babies born in jars are sinful: it takes the seed of man to create a child. Which is why Jesus Christ is so special: he was created between God and a woman. There was no creation of sin in him, for no man touched Mary until after his birth: he was the product of God and woman.
I am the product of man and woman. I am sinful. I have sins in my life that I hate and despise, but at other times I willfully commit them: and that is terrible to me.
Kidan, what Mustard was saying is this: You won't punish the Salvation Army for refusing your gift, but Jesus shall for refusing His.
The difference is this: no perfect man has ever died for every man in all times, save one: Jesus Christ. That is why God will not spare you from his judgment: he gave up his own son for you. And until you have kids (which I have quite a few years to go to), you won't understand that, I don't think. Would you look at your son, and say, "Boy, you're going to grow up and you're going to die for a bunch of lowlife scumbags. If you don't, they'll all wallow in their stink forever. Understood?" No. You would not. But God did.
As for your reaction Eon: God will punish you for refusing his sacrifice,for not listening to his set of dysfunctional rules, which, to this date, work extremely well if applied to live a life that He desires of you. I don't know if you ever tried them, but I find that: "Love God with all you got" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are quite gratifying to actually obey.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] If you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. God can stand NO sin. Therefore, if you commit so much as one, you may as well have committed them all.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that what the sin is doesn't matter, just the fact that it is a sin right? That was exactly my point. You cant say that if I lie it's the same as murder, but you can say that it's counted the same for the purposes of sin. Therfore my point still stands, you made the same argument I did.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]That is why God will not spare you from his judgment: he gave up his own son for you. And until you have kids (which I have quite a few years to go to), you won't understand that, I don't think.
Click to expand...
Well, if he gave up his son he wouldn't have him anymore. And Jesus wasn't erased from existance, he was ressurected and went back up to heaven. So he really didn't give up anything, it was a sacrifice to be sure, but when you give something up you dont have it anymore.
 
The whole idea of Jesus being "given up" is as flimsy as the rest of the Christian myth.

Jesus, as Mustard correctly said, wasn't erased from existence. He didn't even go to Hell for all of us. All he did was die a fairly unpleasant death after being wrongfully accused. Happens all the time with regular humans.

If any significance came out of that, it was the fact that God found out firsthand what it's like to be a human, and learned some restraint. Provided Jesus was really God, it MUST have taken some restraint not to just disintegrate everything in the twenty-mile range while dangling off the cross.

Physical death, even a very painful one, means very little when you're an omnipotent being that can resurrect itself at will. There's no spiritual redemption involved in it. No real "price" paid. It's like deleting a text file that you memorized to a T, and then taking some time to retype it...
 
WHOA WHOA WHOA! Damar, I seriously recommend you read the Bible before you make any flimsy posts such as the one you just made.
Jesus surely did go to Hell for all of us. He went into it, and led the dead to freedom, so it is said in the Bible.
Today my friend, there are terrible deaths, some as worse or worser than crucifixion. But being shredded to almost nothing with 39 lashes with a cat-of-nine-tails is very painful, then having a crown of thorns hammered into your scalp, stuck on a pole just so that you couldn't suffocate, and had nails punctured into your feet and hands, and then died in that state would be very painful and humiliating.
Man isn't just erased from existence. Why should Jesus be? One of the biggest points of Christianity is the belief that man has a soul: one that shall either be in eternal torment for not accepting the protection of Jesus' Christ's blood, or one that shall be in an eternal paradise for accepting that blood.
When man dies, his soul leaves the shell that is the body. Man just isn't some matter that accidentally happened, and when gone retreats to the dirt and becomes food for the maggots. Man's body is only a temple, as God referred to it, a temple for the spirit, and for Jesus CHrist if you accept him. When the body dies, the spirit is left from the body, and goes to judgment.
Of course Jesus wasn't just erased from existence. He was both God and man. WHen his manly form died, God left that body and descended into Hell.
I'll give you a quicj synopsis of what I believe that's all about: BEfore Jesus Christ died for man's sins, there had been no such precedent. Before JEsus Christ, man died and was in a limbo of sorts, The Grave, or Sheol. WHen men died, they went to Sheol (or perhaps they roamed the earth as ghosts? This is big time secondary doctrine), and they awaited a freedom from that Pit, as it is referred to, and they finally had one: Jesus CHrist. He came, and was perfect, and died for all mankind. When he died, he also descended into SHeol. But being perfect, he was not chained to the sins of the world and therefore locked up in Sheol as well. He went in there, looked around for about three days, and conquered death and took the key from Sheol and unlocked the gates to it, and led every person dead so far out of it to Judgment: would they be condemned, or would they accept salvation? There was a different standard before Jesus Christ: love God, obey him, be righteous, and you shall live forever. Be unrighteous, unjust and you'll die. Basically. Now there's a new standard: believe in Jesus Christ, who has done all the righteousness for you, that you may live with Him, or burn by not accepting him. Your choice.
If you read the Bible, Damar, you'll know that it is said that Jesus CHrist had the angels at his side. He even said as much in in the Bible. If he wanted to command 20 legions of angels to his side, who would stop him? No one. At a word, or a thought, he could have been off the cross. But then what point would be his death? He has said time and time again that that was his purpose; in Gethsemane, he says that if this is the exact purpose he was born as a man: to die.
Here's something that makes JEsus' resurrection so special: he did it. So far to that date there was no recording of any one man born of two parents who has come alive under his own will after death. It took a mediator: a man of God to bring him back to life. Even Jesus CHrist, before his death, had to be there to bring people back to life. The girl that died. He walked into her room and told her to get up. ANd she did. After being dead. It was through the power of God that that happened. Lazarus: he ordered to get up and step out.
But no one orderd Jesus to rise up. He did it on his own. By the power of God in him. That's what so special about his death. There was a purpose to it: if Jesus died and did not resurrect, what point was his life? To look to as a holy man, which is how half the world views him? To look at him as no more better than Buddha, or Mohammed? It's the resurrection that matters. He could have died by being stoned, or decapitated, but there was a prophecy long before that he would be Lifted Up as the staff of Moses in the desert. If you know the Scriptures, Moses' staff was basically fashioned into the shape of a serpent, for God had sent snakes to the Israelites to kill them. If anyone looked upon the staff, they would be healed. A lot of them didn't and they died miserable deaths.
Mustard, let me tell you: all sin is sin. It doesn't matter the sin, truly. The thing of God is this: it only takes one sin. John 8:24 says, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He (the Savior (God)), you will die in your sins."
John 8:34-36 says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the hosue forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."
Man is a slave to sin. Our father Adam sinned. He may not have lived in it forever, but we do: we are his descendants, and our descendants shall live in it forever. BUt we don't need to: it is said in the Scriptures, "Resist the devil and he will flee" and to Cain in Genesis, "Sin is crouching at your door, but you must master it." We have a choice: sin or not. WE can resist sin. But we are not perfect, not by any long means. "For it is not by works that we are saved" it is also saved, but only through the power of Jesus Christ's sacrifice and resurrection for us. His blood is what saves us from sin and brings us to heaven at the end.
All it takes is one sin to sever us from God, my friends.
If that's too hard to comprehend, try this: All it takes is one cancerous cell to make you sick and maybe kill you. All it takes is one sin to make us sick and kill us. Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Jesus is the only one capable of freeing us from our bondage to sin.
 
anyone can die...but he rose from the dead as it has been recorded in other references than the Bible
 
Geez, why do I waste my time even posting to you guys? I may as well just say it in so many words: "All my talk and debate has had zero effect on you."
 
You've said NOTHING that has changed my fundamental view of the world. If it's any consolation though, you HAVE said things that have changed my views on Christians. Some of the things you've said have been fairly insightful, and in some ways you almost have an open mind.

Eon
 
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