Message of the spirit?

Stormy, actually I do act, say, teach, practice what I speak in these forums.  I don't candy coat my teachings, no matter how much trouble i've gotten into from some of the more "PC" leadership of churches i've been in.

a better description of Prophet in that context would be "someone who teaches God's will or Word."

I think we should never deny a gift, and that actually we should strive to recieve as many as we can.  That said the Bible makes it clear that WE have control over these gifts, and we should never use them in a way that causes chaos or distracts from the edification of the Church Body.


Kasimir
The thing is there is a difference between charismatics and chaotics

The Bible tells us, that the Holy Spirit will act in certain ways in our lives.  Being slain or being drunk in the spirit are not one of those ways.  

While yes, the Holy Ghost can knock you off your feet, that's a reaction Bibically reserved for the presence of Christ (see the Gospel of John, John's Revelation, the conversion of Saul, and the Tabernacle in the OT)


but just think about the wording of these activites.  Think about the wording of what you are saying.  and words and how we say things are very important because they explain exactly what's going on in the thought processes behind these actions.
but let's look at this:  "Slain in the Spirit."
How can the Spirit, which brings us comfort slay us?  Our faith in Christ has assured us a reward of eternal life, yet here we are being emotionally "Slain" by a spirit, to be resurrected by that self-same spirit when it desires to let go of you.  This does not sound like a comforter to me.  This does sound like it's stepping outside of the bounds for the Holy Spirit's Charter (for lack of a better word).
Now let's look at "Being Drunk in the Spirit" (i.e. the laughing)
A comforter that takes you out and gets you drunk.  Wow, what's next, beernuts and football parties?  The Bible tells us to be sober -minded in all things, yet this activity of the spirit is a direct contradiction of that Bible verse.  Now according to John the Word is God.  The Word is divine, and God inspired.  Now if the Word tells us to be sober-minded, why would the spirit come along now and tell us to be "drunk"  This doesn't fly, and in fact goes against the previously mentioned verse about being sober-minded.

AS for Testing the Lord, actually Malachi says that we should prove (KJV wording, better translated as test) Him, especially concerning the blessings He will provide if we obey.  As well as the OT has numerous examples of people Testing God, and seeking confirmation from Him about His will.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]that at times we can become so under the presence of the Spirit that we need to lay down/sit down to commune with Him
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Give me a good Biblical reference for this.  I have asked others who've said this to me to give me one, and have yet to recieve it.  Personally to me this sounds like quite a burden, and a heavy one at that.  From my readings the burden of Christ is light, and His yoke is easy.  I can't imagine a light burden forcing us onto the ground.  The presence of Christ can cause people to fall down, but that's not a reaction to our comforter.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The Word sayd that " and you shall know them by their fruit" Matt 7:16 .... and if someone claims to have been "slain in the Sprit, or have been laughing in the Spirit (or crying for that matter, or having just been quite and communing with the Spirit) and there is no fruit in their lives ... well....no rocket science there....but if the fruits of an changed life starts showing
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Attending my church are a number of "Fire School" students.  This Fire SChool, is a school of ministry founded by Brownsville converts, who thought that the doctrines of the AoG were too strict.  They practice all the charismatic activities, such as being slain in the spirit, speaking constantly in the angelic (unknown, ecstatic) tongues, etc, etc.  Now, the point is, these people who are Fire School students, they want nothing to do with the rest of us.  they are aloof, and cold and distant, except with each other.  There is no love, except towards one another.  

No, from what I've seen, those who have had conversions from this style of activities, are good-weather Christians at best, and at worst, are just running from church to church looking for their next emotional high.
 
Umm, Storm, I do kinda try and live out what's said in these forums, especially since most of it is for the spiritual benefit when we're not fighting like cats and dogs...so yeah. I kinda do.
And then of course, I sin, and fight in myself about that, and am grieved, and freak out about dying and going to hell and being able to sit it out there, and then I reassure myself in God, blah blah.
Well, uh, personally, I don't agree with the whole talking in tongues thing. I can pray to God easily in the tongues of men that no man can understand, as he is not in my head.
I could also mumble non-understandable random jargon and crap and only God could see I am being a total false dude. Other people would probably raise their hands and praise God for giving me the gift of tongues, and inside I would snicker at their empty, hypocritical idiocy.
Unless people among them were actual Christians and can tell a faker from a real one.
All over the NT, Paul talks of gifts. Not necessarily saying they're mandatory for Christianity, as some churches do, but whatever. Too many churches stick only to their own ranks, and pride themselves on their "gifts from God", as if it makes them holier-than-thou.
Now, you know what: spazzing out in prayer to God is great and all. Knock yourself out. Just don't screw around and invite Satan within, intentionally or not.
I don't need these Holy Spirit gifts to be a Christian, and I don't think anyone else does. Getting them just seems to cause potential problems, more than anything else.
And to top it all off: I had to visit some worship center for church today with my mom. I HATE it. Singing. Straight singing. They wouldn't stop singing. Make it stop! was all I could think.
Now I don't think Christ is there to fire you up into a freakish rage of shouting gibberish or dancing about, overcome by His Spirit, or by falling down prostrate (probably catching a few Z's if you're like me), or laughing randomly thanks to the glee of, umm, God.
Yeah.
 
Ultima

To deny these gifts, is to deny the Holy Ghost.  It's an essential part of ministry, and an essential part of the ability to spread the gospel.  

The Holy Ghost, it's gifts are not limited to things such as tongues, prophecy, but they also include things like boldness in witnessing, discernment of spirits, knowledge of the Word, Intercessory Prayer

These are things Jesus WANTS us to have, who are we to deny them?
 
Actually, God gives you gifts whether you want them or not. Ephesians, iirc, has some verses on them. so do Acts. You pray to God so that He can reveal them. They are for the advancement of the Body of Christ (aka the Church).

There are around 15 or so, each with a purpose. Some ppl are able to speak in tongues (not everybody), some ppl can interpret tongues, some can prophesize, some carry wisdom, some carry intercession, etc.
 
Ultima: I agree with Kidan. It is one thing not to want to exercise the Gifts of the spirit but it is another thing to deny them. The Word says it is there and we should desire them. It is not necessary for salvation but if we deny the Gifts are we not then possibly walking against the Word ?
Secondly, worship can be an awesome time with God, I mean see 2 Sam 6:14 where David danced before God. He did that in the sight of the people with no regard for himself but to honour God when the brought the Ark back. The whole procession bringing back the Ark speaks of worship and gratitude.

Kidan:
"The thing is there is a difference between charismatics and chaotics"
I cannot agree more ! Personally I have never experienced the "slain in the spirit" or the "laughing" . A lot of these manifestations are also dependant on the type of person you are. Having said that it follows that emotion is a big part of this. We as a church believe that the Holy Sprit does manifest Himself in various ways (Acts) but we use the gift of discernment to know the truth and beyond that we also (in the corporate meetings context) value order as we have said previously. God is a God of order.

"AS for Testing the Lord, actually Malachi says that we should prove (KJV wording, better translated as test) Him, especially concerning the blessings He will provide if we obey.
As well as the OT has numerous examples of people Testing God, and seeking confirmation from Him about His will."
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I did say that we should test things against the Word (prove, test). Also I test Him daily in His promises and blessings and His principles such as tithing etc (Mal 3:10).
I just meant in the context of the scripture "Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God" Matt 4:7... and 1Co 10:9

"No, from what I've seen, those who have had conversions from this style of activities, are good-weather Christians at best, and at worst, are just running from church to church looking for their next emotional high."
I am going to agree with you here. God indicates in the scripture how we should come to Him and although many people have been radically saved (the list of books and testimonies are legion, and I am referring to people and testimonies of general nature ..pre-"revival" days),
normally the standard altar call etc etc is till the most common. Conversions due to solely "Spirit experiences" are a lot of times emotional related, but in our Church when these things happen (and they haven't happened for a looong time ... we are currently in a extended season of teaching) the people involved are definately councelled afterward and lead through the sinners prayer etc.

"His yoke is easy"
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
The yoke (as you would agree I think) is the relationship with Christ. See 2Co 6:14 where it states that we should not be unequally "yoked". The Root word for Yoke in the Greed meant "to join". So yes, a relationship with Him is light and precious !

"Give me a good Biblical reference for this"
I think maybe Psa 114:7, Psa 68:8, Psa 95:6 or something in this vein will work here. Since the Holy Spirit is part of the triune God there can be times when His presence is so overwhelming in the spiritual realm and you sense it with your spirit that you will get down out of respect and deference to Him. We "always" have control over the gifts and the manifestations of the Sprit in our lives. Thats why I don't believe hypnotism is cool because you are not in control anymore. Of course there can be problems in your walk with God if you do not let Him control your life but you know what I mean.
I think what I meant is that sometimes when I want to really spend time with the Holy Spirit I like to be comfortable and thats where the laying down comes from. I think that in most cases just being comfortable may be a big part. I think that is the same thing that happens sometimes at altar calls.
Maybe sometimes what comes in here is being convicted of something in your life or God showing you a vision on prophecy for someone that you just want to sit down (the human being in us wanting to be calm to properly receive maybe ?)

For myself, I also do not like the "slain in the Spirit" ..the term does not convey something good...

Regarding this on another level: In terms of our personal walk with God we at times are in a season where we have to focus on Him alone and just love Him and worship Him.
Especially for young Christians they need to be able to walk before they can run and the gifts such as prophetic (whether the Ministry of the Prophet, or just the prophetic ministry) and discernment of spirits etc is frequently only usefull when you have learned and progressed in your walk with God.
 
on the testing, I understand now, we're not to go drink poision just because the Bible says venom won't harm us, and I thought those verses said "tempted" not tested.  


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think maybe Psa 114:7, Psa 68:8, Psa 95:6 or something in this vein will work here. Since the Holy Spirit is part of the triune God there can be times when His presence is so overwhelming in the spiritual realm and you sense it with your spirit that you will get down out of respect and deference to Him.
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While you can and sometimes will get down and kneel out of respect and deference to the Holy  Ghost (He is divine as you said)  there is no reference that He will knock us down.

but let's look at these references Psalms 114:7
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;
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that's close, but trembling is not laying down, it's shaking.  But also notice the verses around it, they're describing rocks, mountains, and rivers.  This psalm is a song about God's grace and power and how He delivers us, but this verse about trembling, is directed literally at the earth.  The earth trembles at the presence of the Lord.  (see 1 King 19:11, and Isa 29:6 for references of God's presence causing earthquakes)

Psalm 68:8
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: [even] Sinai itself [was moved] at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
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Again, this is describing what happens to the land.  "Even Sinai iteself was moved at the presence of God" This song is clearly describing things that happened in the presence of God, yet this quote is things that happened to the land, not to a person

psalm 95:6
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker
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Ah, a scripture where people are doing the actions.  but notice the sentence structure "Come, LET us worship and bow down"  This is a willing action, not being forced upon them by any outside influence.  They are in such awe and fear of the Living God, that prostate themselves or kneel in worship.  Yet the scripture does not, and cannot hold, a reference to God forcing them to do so
 
Well, for sure, the Scriptures often speak of the earth worshipping God, trembling at God (read the final Psalms, all about the earth praising the LORD), even the fact that if the Christians are silent, the rocks will shout to God...wowza. I would LOVE to see that, but I hope not, because then Christians (including myself), will suck bad.
No where is it said that God shall force us to worship him, I believe. He commanded the Hebrews to sacrifice and come to the Temple to worship him, and the synagogues as well, but were not forced to.
 
Ultima, we're not discussing forcing of worship, but being forced into certain acts DURING worship.

i.e. you are praising God, and then you suddenly fall down, or start laughing hysterically.
 
Kidan

Quite correct ! I have had another look and this is the best I can come up with . I am not trying to prove it for you, not really ;) I am also trying to get some clarity for myself on the subject in the process.... That is how we learn and grow in any respect
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
2Ch 5:13 it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised Jehovah, saying, For he is good; for his lovingkindness endureth for ever; that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of Jehovah,
2Ch 5:14 so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of Jehovah filled the house of God.
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This is old testament but it qualifies I should think.

One thing I want to say is this: In the end what God wants is us to love and commune with Jesus, be sanctified and walk in Him , and we as humans are sometimes so desperate to get into God's presence that our hearts (read emotions) sometimes take more of a "leadership" role than they should !
 
Kasimir  I've settled myself with God and the Word on my interpretations of these "Revival" practices.  When I could not answer my (now wife) girlfriend why my church did these practices, I really studied the word and prayed over what I read and from that formed my opinions and teachings on the subject, this also led to my eventual switching denominations from Assembly of God, to the Salvation Army. That said, if I missed something in my readings, I need to know about it so I can change to bring my beliefs in line with the Bible.

What I do now, is try to help people think these practices through, and see that the justification for them are just that, justifications.  WE should never have to justify an action of God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

now my comments on your post:

The verse could be used to qualify, but this is the "Presence of the Lord (Jehovah)"  

So we have 1 instance in the OT, and 3 instances in the NT of people falling down in the presence of the divine.

Yet, none of these instances are in the presence of the Holy Ghost (OT-Jehovah, NT-all are Christ).  While yes, the Holy Ghost is a part of the trinity, and as such is divine, the trinity each has seperate roles, and ministries.

God is the Maker & Provider, He controls everything
Christ is the priest, He intercedes for us
Holy Spirit is the comforter, He convicts, teaches, and empowers us.

When you are in the full presence of God the Father, Jehovah-Jirah, you should not stand (and in fact if you are not clean, you could die).  We're to be in awe of God.  We're to be in fear (fear as in the ultimate version of awe) of God.  

When Christ reveals His divine nature to mortals, they may stand or may fall(see conversion of Paul, Christ's arrest, the Revelation of St. John as examples of falling, yet see the confession of Peter, the Last Supper, the story of Thomas' doubt for examples of not falling).  Christ is our High Priest.  He stands at the right hand of God, and intereceds on our behalf with the Father.  He's our conduit and as such he controls the divine in a way that we are not overwhelmed, that we are not REQUIRED to be clean as if we were going directly to the Father.

The Holy Spirit dwells with us constantly.  His presence is always around us, showing us areas of our lives that need help and work.  Convicting us as we sin.  Helping us and empowering us as we seek to spread the Gospel.  Yet nowhere does the Bible give the Holy Spirit credit for knocking people down.


Yet it's the Holy Spirit that people accredit these things to.  Why?  If His ministry has no Biblically recorded instance, and God promises us that He (and as a result the trinity) will be the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, why (or should the question be How, since to do so would go against His being the same) would the Holy Spirit develop a new ministry in the last 100 years.
 
Kidan

True. I can see that you have made a study of this subject and your teachings are solid. I am also trying to clear this in my mind and since I am an engineer I tend to want to have a 10 point plan, and since we have the Word that is possible. And also, we must enquire to measure our world against the Word.

When Paul first went to the Greek city of Berea, the book of Acts says that the Bereans were more noble than the other Jews Paul had encountered in Greece because they "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true" (Acts 17.11).

Im doing some reading and praying myself on the subject. Will have some stuff later today again
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In closing this I want to leave with a few points. The Word basically covers 3 aspects of teaching. That is :
->What we as Christians are to believe,( salvation, Jesus's teachings etc)
->How we as Christians are to behave (daily walk, sanctification)
->What we as Christians are to practice (baptism, The Lord's Table etc)

Now, to agree with you Kidan. There is no scripture providing a proof of the spiritual phenomena as frequently found in history in times of Revival.

When it comes to seeking proof scriptures (scripture taken in context that proves the point of view that we are taking) , a scripture that fits the above description is sometimes called a primary proof and scripture that alludes or implies a certain position is called a secondary proof . To give an example.. Baptism. The Word flatout says that we must be baptised after receiving God ( Mat 28:19 , Mar 16:16 , John 4:1 etc ).
So these (and other scriptures) are all primary scriptures. The Word never says that we are to be baptised by going under the water . The word "baptizo" does mean in the root "to be immersed" and to all indications that is how the early church baptised and how Jesus baptized and was baptized by John, so it is implied but not stated directly . These are secondary scriptures that implies a certain action or position but does not hold it up as teaching. That is why it is ok how different churches baptise PROVIDED they do it after salvation as an act of obedience etc as the primary scriptures show.

When one comes to spiritual phenomena (laughing, falling etc) we enter the area of Christian practice. There is a number of scriptures showing various people reacting in different ways (falling forward, backward, standing still, being in awe, shaking when in the presence of God etc) when entering into God's presence or being visited by God. I can get some breakdown if necessary. Point is, they never say Holy Sprit but they imply that in certain circumstances , the presence of God has resulted in various reactions from people.

So taking everything we said in this thread into account, there has been numerous revivals and instances (mostly in revivals though) where people have reacted in various ways to the presence of the Holy Spirit (which is God's presence on earth). Now we as humans are also prone to emotionalism (don't know if the word exists but lets go with it ;) ) and that can (and have) made this waters a bit murky. Having said that I do not believe that everyone in all churches (that allow the workings of the Spirit) are under emotional "hypnosis" in this instance. Also, the fruits visible in a lot of peoples lives after experiencing the presence of the HS has been evident. In the same way that an awesome teaching can bring Rhema word into your life and cause a radical change in your walk with God , the same can (and frequently does) happen in cases of divine visitation. And of course in the same way that we can receive teaching and prayer and still not change, the same can (and frequently does) happen with these experiences.

I personally think and the Word seems to bear that out that God works in different seasons with us (as He did with the Israelites throughout biblical times). And also, now that I think about it, from my experience I seem to remember that a lot of times when people fell down when experincing the Holy Spirit, they came back afterwards with some words of prophecy which edified the body as the Word says it should.

So , I think, in conclusion that we need to seek Truth from God in each and every situaition and above all we should all agree on the things that the Word teaches us to believe and how to behave and to spread the Word and to minister in various ways to fellow believers and the world at large. I have grown a lot through our interaction and my understanding of a number of previously un-examined scriptures have been greatly increased.

A Final final note: Yesterday we ministered at a rural church as before and we (5) prayed for the people to take hold of the gift of tongues for themselves and two people there started speaking in tongues (for themselves) . This was awesome but what was even more revealing to me was that 2/3 people , out of the 100 or so members in the congregation, started shaking and crying ( and one lady fell backwards). Now, we did not exhibit this in ourselves and I watched all of us and can say with total honesty before God that we did not directly pray for these manifestations or did anything untowards. So the fact that this church do not at all even really operate in the Spirit ( I mean, we where teaching them on the gifts of the Holy Spirit ), seems to indicate that something special happened there.
 
Hrmm....question: Bible says to be baptized right? But thief on cross would SURELY be with Jesus in paradise, according to God. Now I don't know about you, but I don't think the clouds opened up and poured rain on the guy and Jesus reached over and said, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, Me and the Holy Ghost. Buried in the water in the likeness of His death, and rising in the likeness of His resurrection."
 
Baptism is an outward sign of an inward action.

It is not a requirement for Salvation. Only believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior is that. That said, it is a good work, and considered by the apostles as a "first works." One of those things you do as soon as you get saved (or close to it).
 
Gosh!  I used to be so active in this forum, but at some point, there was too much activity and I couldn't keep up.  
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I've sort of been able to catch up with the latest threads here.  I don't have much to add here.  I had some comments about some earlier posts, but they are too old now.  Essentially Kidan covered most of the points.

But as to Ultima's comment regarding the thief.  I've used that same argument as well.  But those who claim baptism is a requirement of salvation will say the Holy Spirit hadn't come yet.

I just learned something about baptism in my men's bible study last week.  The Jews had already been practicing baptism.  This is obvious because of John the Baptist.  But they truly considered it becoming brand new and refreshed...completely and utterly clean of sin.  You came out, and they believed you had a brand new slate.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The Word flatout says that we must be baptised after receiving God
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rats ! .. if it sounded like I said it is necessary for salvation, chalk it to up to a non-english speaker hehe ... As Kidan said, it is considered something you should do as obedience after receiving salvation ... believing in the Lord Jesus is still the only thing necessary .. God's grace covers the rest ... What I kinda meant is to illustrate the difference between implied and stated positions in scripture ... Baptism and a number of other things , is what God really would like us to partake in but it is not necessary for salvation ..
 
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