Matthew 10:28

[Lloren]

Interestingly, Bell's book is out and it sounds like it is a defense of the non-tormenting hell. There is a great response to the book which could be useful for our conversation.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/03/14/rob-bell-love-wins-review/

 

[ewoksrule]

Wow read that link on my phone, didn't know it was gonna take me 30mins! Some good stuff in there, not too much on annihilation other then to dismiss it as a non-mainstream doctrine that has been around since the beginning.

One of the commenters brought up an interesting point that Purgatory has been around since the early church as well and was the majority view for Christianity. I never looked that deep into the doctrine but does Purgatory include tormenting or is it just a place of hard labor as you purchase more grace for your account?

 

[Patriot]

That was a long read. Loved this quote though:

The emerging church is not an evangelistic strategy. It is the last rung for evangelicals falling off the ladder into liberalism or unbelief.

One of the commenters brought up an interesting point that Purgatory has been around since the early church as well and was the majority view for Christianity. I never looked that deep into the doctrine but does Purgatory include tormenting or is it just a place of hard labor as you purchase more grace for your account?

Really should be another topic. . .but purgatory is very difficult to support using Scripture alone. Plus there are some serious implications with the doctrine that would need to be overcome.

 

[ewoksrule]

right, I am not asking about its validity, but if it holds to the eternal torment view we are discussing.

 

[Baddwin]

I do not agree that it is distance. I believe it is referring to time.

Agreed. When I saw Ryan's explanation for the Revelation 14 and 19 passages, I figured that we needed to look at the Greek. About 3 minutes of research took me here.

Pretty unequivocal. Time, not distance.

 

[ewoksrule]

on the other topic that is flowing in this thread. Here is a neat chronology of the whole Rob Bell thing.
http://theresurgence.com/2011/03/15/a-chronology-of-rob-bell-on-hell

 

[Abba San]

Thanks - that's helpful.

 

[Lloren]

new Francis Chan video on Hell. Worth the watch/listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8

 

[Abea]

Before I begin, let me say that I really had no preconceived notion on this topic. I had never studied it nor even gave it much of a thought. Yes, I am aware of what is taught about tormenting, but it isn’t something that I have used personally nor do I hear it taught very often in my church. But the topic surly did intrigue me. I read EVERY post, but not all of the external links. I am not biased in any way.

As I reply, I may repeat something that other’s wrote, to be honest, with so many posts prior to this, I can’t address them individually. I decided the best thing for me was to start from scratch and do my own research and let it lead where it may.

Before I dive into my findings, I would like you to know my method of research, since you don’t know me personally. I developed this method of using a Word Flow Chart. You can see the one I used at http://30days.info/word_flow_charts.xls - you will have to download it. Warning, if you print it, print it with 2 per page and it will be like 60 pages. I research every single occurrence in the NT of the following words: Destroy, Hell Geena, Death, Hell Hades, Rest, Slain, Torment (3 kinds), Brimstone (2 kinds), Fire, Smoke, Eternal, Judged, Penalty/Damnation, Dead, Consumed/Burned, Kill, Flame, Hell, Wailing, Gnashing, Perdition/Destruction, Punishment (3 different words), and Destruction. During my study I used E-Sword (if you don’t have it, check it out http://www.e-sword.net/ – it’s free! I find it a must for Biblical research.) I use the Amplified, KJV, NIV, ESV, and Youngs Literal Version. I also use Strongs and the Lexicon website (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/frequency.cgi?number=1100&book=1co&translation=str). I use the following commentaries Robertson’s Word Pictures, Vincent’s Word Studies, John Wesley’s Notes, John Gill’s notes, Albert Barnes notes, and Matthew Henry’s notes.

Here are my findings, beginning with the text you began with. I did not quote every part of a scripture, I’m sure you are quite capable of looking them up if you need to.

Matthew 10:28 refers to a body and soul being destroyed in hell. Therefore we have to establish our vocabulary. What does destroy mean? What is a body? What is a soul? And what is hell?

A body is human flesh and the soul is our spirit to state it very simply. I think these are easy to come to an agreement on. If not, then say so and I’ll define them in more direct terms.

To destroy, the original Greek word (apollumi) comes from the root word olethros which means to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction. The definition for apollumi is to “put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, to kill, to declare that one must be put to death, metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell, to perish, to be lost.” Because of the various definitions available to us, we can not determine from this one scripture verse whether destroy would be a permanent state or something that could be on going – as in to put out of the way entirely or render useless and especially to give over to eternal misery in hell. It would be quite a jump, with just this one scripture, to saying that there is no torment for sinners. Therefore, we will have to do further research to discover the answer to the question: Are sinners tormented or destroyed?

Hell in this context is referring to Geenna, The definition given by Thayer is “Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.” So in this particular scripture, Hell would be a place of punishment. Given that definition of hell, we could, within the context of this verse alone, say that destroy would not be a final state as punishment would not be a final state. However, the fact that at Gehenna things were burned, we would tend to think of that as a final state. They were cast out and destroyed, finished, nothing was left but ashes. There would be punishment during the burning stage however. But it is not wise to take one verse of the Bible and take a stance on something. It is always important to keep everything in context of the entire Bible. So let’s look a little further.

We do know that there will be suffering, of course, let me throw you into a fire and I’m sure you will suffer! lol But Matthew 23:33 clarifies that this is true as it reads, “How can you escape the penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna)?”

If we look at Rev 14:10-11 we can see that he (or they) that permits the stamp/mark of the beast on their forehead or his hand will be tormented with fire and brimstone and the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever with no respite. I think we are limiting God to think that just because when we see something burned here on earth and it dies and evaporates or is destroyed, that it is so everywhere. I mean, we are talking about God here, he made man from dirt! First of all, what we see burned and that perishes forever is human flesh and bones. At this point, that is no long in existence. Therefore what is going to burn is the soul or spirit. We do not know what affect fire, brimstone, or any kind of burning has on the soul. However, here, it indicates that it is very much a torment and that it can go on forever and ever. But, this is referencing those who take the mark of the beast, which does not tell us about those who would die as a sinner and not with the mark of the beast. We do know that those who paid homage and gave divine honors to him will also be “hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone,” as recorded in Rev 19:20.

We also know that along with the beast and the false prophet, the devil will be thrown into the fiery lake and that they will be “tormented day and night forever and ever,” as recorded in Rev 20:10-15. So we know that the lake will not destroy, as a permanent state, angels or demons.

Another question that Rev 20:10-15 presents us with is the when of the torment. Here we see that people have been dead and have not been judged yet. It says that “the sea delivered up the dead who were in it … and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done.” So a question has arisen in regards to what was happening with them up until this time?

We also find out that Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. I believe that is because there is no need for them anymore. Death has no use anymore as there will be no one left to die. Everyone and everything left will have eternal life. Hades is where the dead were – it is defined as “the nether world, the realm of the dead.” Or it could also mean “the grave, death, or hell.” No matter what it’s definition, there is no need for it anymore. To me these are a state and a place and are just being discarded. It doesn’t matter if they are tortured or not.

From Rev 20 we also see that anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire. So now we know that even those without the mark of the best will end up in the lake of fire. We now have them in the lake of fire, but not the answer as to whether they are tortured either in death/Hades or in the lake of fire. In Rev 21 this is confirmed when it lists several kinds of people (cowards, ignoble, contemptible, unbelieving and faithless, depraved and defiled with abominations, murders, lewd, adulterous, magical arts, idolaters, and liars) who will have “their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone.” But we still don’t know about torment per se.

Basically, anyone who doesn’t believe will experience the second death. We know that the second death will be the lake of fire as stated in several of the scriptures already listed. Some have said that the first death was in the garden and the second is when we actually die here on earth. But this clearly states that the lake of fire is the second death. And based on the scriptures mentioned above, we know that many of those people listed were already naturally dead or died here while on earth. I’m not going to get into whether the first death was in Eden or the first was our earthly death – all I know is that the second death IS the lake of fire and believers will not experience that death.

I did find it interesting the wording of Matthew 13:40-42. It says that “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all causes of offense and all who do iniquity and act wickedly.” Notice that it says “His Kingdom.” That might be an excellent topic for another posting, I just wanted to mention that. Either way, they will be cast into the furnace of fire and there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth. Sounds like torture to me, but the question is for how long? Will it be for eternity?

2 Thes. 1:7-9 reveals some more information to us as it states “such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” This just brought a thought to my mind. What would be more of a punishment than to be in the presence of God and then taken out of it? They WILL be in the presence of God at judgment. They will experience everything we will experience, the difference is, they will all be taken away. I know it’s not really relevant here, but just a thought that crossed my mind. Anyway … It does say everlasting and eternal, which seems to indicate no end to it.

Matthew 8:11-12, mentions something that seems to be odd as it states, “I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, While the sons and heirs of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. [Ps. 107:2, 3; Isa. 49:12; 59:19; Mal. 1:11.] (AMP).” The sons of the Kingdom comes from a favorite Hebrew wisdom which basically means the sons of hell. So they will be driven out into the darkness outside. Outside where? Could this be something alluding to where they are such as in Death or Hades? I can’t image it is after they are thrown in the lake of fire, so it almost has to be during the time between death on earth and the judgment day. This is strictly speculation on my part however.

Truly, we do not know what goes on after one dies as an unbeliever. We know that they will not be judged immediately, and we know that they will not be in the lake of fire until judgment day. Because we are unable to know the properties and laws of matter after death, we can not determine the affect of fire and brimstone on the soul. All we can do is rely on what the Bible tells us. We either believe it is true or it isn’t. We can’t have it half way.

The Bible clearly states that even though people, angels, things (whatever you want to call them lol) are thrown into the lake of fire, there is tormenting forever and ever. Let me give you one final scripture verse to chew on for a bit. And just so there isn’t any issue over what version, I’ll give it to you in several versions:

(AMP) Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life. [Dan. 12:2.]

(ASV) And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

(ESV) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

(KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(LITV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

(NIV) “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

(YLT) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

This is Mathew 25:46, and if you have a red letter Bible, you will see that this is in red letters. Now, the real question becomes, do you believe what Jesus says, whether you can prove it or not? Because Jesus says, that they will go away into everlasting punishment. Punishment, kolasis, from G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

Enough for me, is it enough for you?

Thanks for the subject matter. Thoroughly enjoyed my day in God’s Word.

Abea (Minecraft)


SIDE NOTE: I spent the entire day researching this topic. I really enjoyed it and was even able to do most of it outside in the beautiful weather. But it wasn’t until near the very end that I came across that verse in Matthew. I’m glad the Lord allowed me the journey before revealing that verse to me. Lol God is good!!

 

[Kyrel Ruth]

Matthew 10:28 refers to a body and soul being destroyed in hell. Therefore we have to establish our vocabulary. What does destroy mean? What is a body? What is a soul? And what is hell?

A body is human flesh and the soul is our spirit to state it very simply. I think these are easy to come to an agreement on. If not, then say so and I’ll define them in more direct terms.

I do have to correct 1 thing. Man is a 3 part being, not a 2 part being. Man is a spirit-being, he has a soul, and he lives in a body. (1 Thess. 5:23)

Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God divides the soul and the spirit.

So if Matt 10:28 refers to a body and soul being destroyed, then everlasting torment is for the remaining spirit to endure.

Great post Zippy. Thanks!

 

[Abea]

Man is a 3 part being, not a 2 part being. Man is a spirit-being, he has a soul, and he lives in a body.

Ah, VERY good point Kyrel . Pulls it all together even more. Thank you!

 

[target45]

Although many think of hell as an eternal fire (and it is) it's mainly eternal separation and judgement from God. The reason why heaven is heaven is because God is there. The reason why hell is hell is because God is not there.

 

[ewoksrule]

Is God a Monster?
http://www.gty.org/Blog/B110518
Read this article today and it made me think of this thread.

 

[Zeena]

Hi Lloren, I see RyanB has not been online in some time.

I would like to respond to one of your posts, if it's okay.

Without hell what did God save us from again?

Sinning, which leads to death.

He saved us, and is saving us and will save us from the law of sin and death which works in our members to bear fruit for death, by the washing of regeneration through the Blood of His Christ, which was poured out for the remmission of sins that are past. Being made FREE of this motion of sin which once bound us, for which purpose Jesus His Christ came, to crucify sin in the flesh, and us with Him, that we might bear fruit unto righteousness, which leads to and is Eternal Life, even Christ.

For indeed, there would be no place hell if no one sinned.
Just as there would be no mansion in Heaven if there were none righteous.

Not that we are saved only "from" hell for we are saved unto God Himself for His glory.

He wouldn't need to die for us. He could just snap His fingers and wisk us away if hell is a cosmic joke.

It's not hell that's a cosmic joke, it's sin, which leads to death, literally. For Satan is the prince of the power of the air;

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That makes him cosmic, and yea, he's a cosmic joke.

The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

Those who were swallowed up in the earth God opened for the Israelites in his anger (Num 26) would suddenly wake up one day to a "warm embrace".

Not all will awake. But of those who do, some to eternal Life, and some to eternal death.

The Father would say, "Just kidding! I wasn't mad. Get over here!" *bear hug*.

You understand that our Heavenly Father is angry with sin, and not the sinner? You understand that He, is His Benevolance, has felt compassion towards His creatures which have been caught in the snare of Satan? EG; The lie?

Wherefore did He say that 'ye shall know that Truth, and the Truth shall make ye free?' And again; 'He came for freedom', that 'those who were all their lives bound by their fear of death' might be 'set at liberty' knowing 'He will raise them up again' through 'faith in our Father' to 'quicken the dead'?

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Seriously? The sin of man wants to think that they can get away with DEFYING the Creator of the Universe. Maybe we have no idea how much we offend Him and it may be He is wholly just in destroying those who do not trust in His Only Son.

It's sin that offends Him, for all sin is unrighteousness.
EG; It's not His own design which offends Him, it's ours.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Jesus came into the world to save sinners by dying for their sins.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Zeena]

First and foremost, I first want to mention that this may be a hot topic, and that's not what I'm wanting to do here. This is a very hot topic because we're dealing with a belief held by a majority of Christians that is actually talked about and studied very little, because "well, it's just a given".

I'm asking that we try not to have kneejerk reactions on something our particular denomination believes (I attend Southern Baptist, so I get it), and actually look at what the bible says.

*snip*

So? What does God, the Spirit, Who wrote the Bible through Holy men as moved by that same Spirit, say on the matter?

Our Father.. OUR Father.. Each and every man woman and child has One Heavenly Father Who created them, individually, to work corporately as one unit, guided by the One True Spirit, even God, through the Grace of God in Christ by His Blood, which was shed for us, each and every one of us.

What does OUR Father have to say about it when WE choose to sin?

What does any good parent do with their unruley child but give them over to the authorities?
For rebuke and for correction, that in the end they may be saved.

And if these disobedient children chose to continue headlong in sin?

He allows them to go, knowing that they will stumble and fall. Knowing that He is remaining faithful to them by promting them to take the good path.
But that the decision is in their hand, lest they want for maturity.
He leaves them to their own devices and faithfully hopes for a better future for them, which is only possible if they obey His instruction.

If, in the end, they are miserable, wreched, naked and poor, it is only by their own design.

As for any afterlife, I know not of any.

For to know a thing, one must have experienced it.

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

I know only of Eternal Life, which is NOW, just as it will be then.

 

[ewoksrule]

I just want to clarify, I might be reading you wrong here.

Our Father.. OUR Father.. Each and every man woman and child has One Heavenly Father Who created them, individually, to work corporately as one unit, guided by the One True Spirit, even God, through the Grace of God in Christ by His Blood, which was shed for us, each and every one of us.

This is right on, for those He has adopted as children. But that is not everyone. It sounds like you are confusing believers (chosen ones who are adopted into God's family) with all people. Yes God does allow His children to fall into sin and face consequences in order to bring about sanctification. He does correct like a good Father would, but this is only for those that are in His family.

Sinners who choose not to believe and end up in hell were never God's children. They are not disobedient children that went down a wrong path. They are slaves to Satan and enemies of God.

God is not like a "Mother Nature" who is a Father of all created beings.

 

[Zeena]

I just want to clarify, I might be reading you wrong here.

This is right on, for those He has adopted as children. But that is not everyone. It sounds like you are confusing believers (chosen ones who are adopted into God's family) with all people. Yes God does allow His children to fall into sin and face consequences in order to bring about sanctification. He does correct like a good Father would, but this is only for those that are in His family.

Sinners who choose not to believe and end up in hell were never God's children. They are not disobedient children that went down a wrong path. They are slaves to Satan and enemies of God.

God is not like a "Mother Nature" who is a Father of all created beings.

Do you believe that our Heavenly Father creates each one of us individually?

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Does He create us sinners?

Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Or is sin something we do, or fail to do, as the case may be?

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[ewoksrule]

No God does not create each one of us individually. He created the first man from dust and the first woman from adam's rib. Those were hand created by God and they were perfect (sinless). Every birth that took place afterwards was subject to the curse and was born sinful. God is not directly creating people after the first couple, He put a system together that people procreate with each other. He commanded the first couple to multiply. However due to the fall and the curse put on all creation, all babies are born with sin.

Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 (NASB95)
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Yes I do believe that God is active in every birth, but that does not negate the effects of sin upon us.

Psalm 139:13 (ESV)
13For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.

Sin is something we do (sin of commission), sin is something we fail to do (sin of omission), sin is something we were born into (sinful nature).

Until God adopts you into His family you are not a child of His.

 

[ewoksrule]

Pelagius rejected the teaching of “original sin,” the results of the Fall upon humanity. According to him, Adam’s sin in no way made humans corrupt, but instead “over the years our sin gradually corrupts us, building an addiction and then holding us bound with what seems like the force of nature itself.”

Pelagius’ error was deemed heretical in 416 by the Council of Carthage.

Because of sin, humans are not naturally good—that's why we need Jesus.


taken from: source

 

[Zeena]

No God does not create each one of us individually.

Since when?

He created the first man from dust and the first woman from adam's rib. Those were hand created by God and they were perfect (sinless).

Perfect is most often translated as mature by most theologians, what makes you consider perfection on par with sinlessness?

Was Jesus only sinless when He rose?

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Every birth that took place afterwards was subject to the curse

What curse? For, as far as Scripture informs us, God cursed the ground because of Adam, blessed of God.

and was born sinful.

Jesus was born of the seed of Abraham, how do you reconcile the fact that He is sinless if He came fully man?

God is not directly creating people after the first couple, He put a system together that people procreate with each other.
He commanded the first couple to multiply. However due to the fall and the curse put on all creation, all babies are born with sin.

From Jesus saying that the angels of little children continually behold the face of the Father of Lights, to St Paul stating that children are holy, how do you get that? From what text please?

Yes I do believe that God is active in every birth, but that does not negate the effects of sin upon us.

Death is the wage of sin, the sting of death is having sinned. There is no fear in death, for the righteous.

The soul that sins, it shall die.. For I was once alive (apart from the law), but sin revived and I died.

Sin is something we do (sin of commission), sin is something we fail to do (sin of omission),

I'm with you..

sin is something we were born into (sinful nature).

You just lost me.

If you were already dead, and then born again, being made dead to sin yet alive to God.. Wouldn't that be twice dead?

Until God adopts you into His family you are not a child of His.

And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.