First, thank you Sassamo for quoting all these verses in one place. I value your interpration a lot and have, have responded to each and every one of these below. Many here will not read this entire, gigantic post, so I will sum it up for you.
Sassamo quoted twenty scriptures about hell. I responded. 19 of these scrpitures give absolutely no weight to the idea of eternal torment. 1 of them is a strong maybe. Details below.
Should also note: I still haven't gotten around to writing a post on what I believe supports annihilation in the bible. Will get around to that soon. My goal was to get the obvious stuff out of the way, and go from there. I do this because I believe that when people have their heads full of the idea that there is a strong, rock-solid case for eternal torment...they aren't even listening to me, and don't care what the bible
actually says.
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From what I've seen, at least within the NT are 4 different references: hades, gehenna, tartaroo, and lake of fire. Generally, where hades is used, it mostly seems to represent a temporal place of holding. The other 3 all seem to be a place the unsaved are cast into, and suffer. So as far as considering the eternal state, as we know that hades is cast into the lake of fire, I would only consider those scriptures which actually reference this place:
Please explain. Are you saying you consider Hades to be eternal, because it is cast into the hellfire? I know you had mentioned before that if people are in Hades and cast in, then there they are forever, whereas I believe that if the Hellfire destroys things, Hades being cast into the hellfire both literally and figuratively means that death is no more.
Matt 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
I'll talk a bit more on this one because this is the case for most verses about hell.
There is nothing in this verse indicating eternal torture outside of our own bias.
For example: I say "in danger of the hell fire" means someone is in danger of being destroyed in the hell fire. Someone else might say it means "in danger of being tortured forever".
There is nothing here lending weight to the idea of eternal hell. We simply read it that way because of what we were told in church.
Matt 5:29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Matt 5:30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Matt 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This verse seems pretty obvious which side of the argument it favors. Not only does it not mention torment, it mentions specific destruction.
Matt 18:9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Matt 23:15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Matt 23:33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
"Damnation" means being cursed. No specific information here.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Mark 9:43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
I noticed you underlined the last part, and I hear this a lot...so let me explain this for you. If I have an unquenchable fire, and throw in a piece of paper...that piece of paper will go poof and case to exist instantly. The fire is still there.
Does this mean the paper is burning forever? No, of course it does not. It means that
the fire is unquenchable, it
does not mean the fire cause anything put in to it to burn forever without burning. How could one possibly interpret this scripture to indicate eternity of burning?
It's not like I'm doing mental gymnastics here to try to twist what it says. I suppose it is
possible to make the case that an unquenchable fire
could possibly burn something for eternity; but that is simply not supported here. Does that make sense?
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Mark 9:45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Luke 12:5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Reading the entire thing shows very clearly what this means:
“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. (luke 12:4-5)
Being "killed" is your body. This is presumably the first death. Revelation calls being thrown into fire "the second death". So verse 5 is simply saying that after your mortal body has been killed, God can cast you into the hellfire.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
James 3:6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
2 Pet 2: 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell(Tartaroo), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Rev 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
As mentioned earlier in this thread - this verse has nothing at all to do with the hellfire. At least I certainly don't see it here. This verse is talking about the period during the plagues, before judgement. It is referring specifically to those who receive the mark of the beast, not all sinners.
Lastly, it says the smoke goes up forever and ever. This looks to indicate distance moreso than it does time. It says the smoke goes up forever....IE..."wow that's a freaking huge plume of smoke". I should add - I believe (can't remember where off the top of my head, sorry) that this description was also used to describe Sodom's destruction.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell.
Rev 19:3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Same comment as above. Distance, not time.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell.
Rev 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
This appears like a good verse supporting eternal torment when used in conjunction with Rev 20:10, but isn't. It's simply not worded very well in English. This simply says the beast and false prophet were cast alive into the lake of burning sulphur. It does not refer to those who had received the mark of the beast, it says the prophet who had deceived them.
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived "them".
Who is "them"? Those that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
It never says anything about those being decieved being cast into the lake. I'm not doing mental stretches here - it's simply confusing wording.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This verse is referring to the beast, and the false prophet. Read it again.
I will add for clarity's sake, I believe this is the best verse in the bible supporting the idea of eternal torment. Why? Because it looks like we are getting thrown into the same place.
However, let me also encourage you to read through all of Rev 20. The devil is being thrown into the "lake of sulphur". We are being thrown into "the lake of fire". Is this a different place? Is it possible it is the same place and the devil will be tormented but we aren't? After all,
there is no verse in the entire bible saying that we will be tormented forever and ever. The best we can do is imply it based on this verse and an assumption we suffer the same fate.
I would still say this verse leans towards the "eternal torment" side of the argument, but please bear all those things in mind. It is certainly not a smoking gun, especially in the face of the large amount of evidence pointing against it.
At some point, I'd like to do a very in-depth study on the words used and how they are meant in this single verse.
Rev 20:14And death and hell(hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Talked about about above a bit. When we die for the first time, we have no ties to our bodies. If we didn't die in an explosion, our body will still decay in time. Our bodies are gone. We "live" on because we have a soul. So what happens when our soul "dies"?
I'll talk more on the "seperation" idea of death, since you mentioned it below.
Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Again, nothing here indicating what happens to you when you go to Hell...just that you get thrown into the hell fire.
I've underlined those areas which give an indication to time length, and it seems pretty solid to me, not that I haven't wished to support annihalation, but this appears to be what the Bible says. To address 2 particular areas:
I have answered each and every one of these; looking forward to your thoughts.
Matt 10:28 – 'destroy' - according to strongs, possible definitions:
1. to put out of the way entirely, abolosh, put an end to ruin
2. render useless
3. to kill
4. to declare that one must be put to death
5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
7. to lose
So, although it mainly means to completely annihalate, it could also have a meaning that leaves the item in exhistence.
I agree it
could have an alternate meaning. However, when given no other context, why would we assume anything but a classical definition? Also, on the two definitions you listed:
#2 doesn't indicate eternal torment
#5 is circular. It's using itself as the definition.
Luke 12:5 - Doesn't make much sense for God to kill you then annihilate you.
Answered above.
Rev 20:14,21:8 – 'second death' – I don't know if I can support this biblically, but I look at it as first death = physical, second death = eternal separation from God.
You are correct, this is not supported biblically. I'm glad you brought this up! Actually,
the idea that "death" means "seperation from God" is derived entirely from people trying to explain how you can "die" and be in hell for eternity.
The irony in this?
This is completely backwards. Rather than say, let's interpret that verse based on what we think death means, we instead say...let's redefine death.
Let's also think about this logically for a moment. The gift of heaven is eternal life. Jesus says that ONLY those who are saved will receive the gift of eternal life.
So under this definition, those who don't get eternal life get eternal..."death", in which you happen to live eternally, just in a really crappy place.
I'm sorry, but saying "death" means seperation from God is not only not supported biblically (as you've already mentioned) -
it makes no sense at all!
Perhaps there's more evidence in the old testament, but there's only one word representing hell, so you'd have to look into the context to gather which use it implies. Anyway, this is just what I see, I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise, as long as it was biblical.
Hope I've answered your new testament questions then.
) was wide, and the path to life was small.
