Matthew 10:28

Pelagius rejected the teaching of “original sin,” the results of the Fall upon humanity. According to him, Adam’s sin in no way made humans corrupt, but instead “over the years our sin gradually corrupts us, building an addiction and then holding us bound with what seems like the force of nature itself.”

Pelagius’ error was deemed heretical in 416 by the Council of Carthage.
Rom 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:14
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Matt 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Isa 50:7
For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
1 Pet 2:21-25 said:
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Because of sin, humans are not naturally good—that's why we need Jesus.
I needed Jesus because I had become a slave to sin by succumbing to temptation through my own lusts, NOT the lusts of my forefathers, or I would have failed to take personal responsability for my own sins.
Pr 28:13 said:
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Also, Jesus came as one of us, fully man.

James 1:14 said:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Matt 4:1 said:
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Heb 2:16 said:
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham
Heb 4:15 said:
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Gen 1:31 said:
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
John 10:35-36 said:
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Luke 3:38 said:
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

You are aware that this Synod was overseen by a Roman Catholic Bishop, pronouncing Roman Catholic judgement?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02108d.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm

Col 2:8-23 said:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
 
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Hi Kyrel, how ya been?

Loong time no see huh?
I do have to correct 1 thing. Man is a 3 part being, not a 2 part being. Man is a spirit-being, he has a soul, and he lives in a body. (1 Thess. 5:23)
Just because man has a Spirit, dun mean it's his..

Case in point;

1 Thes 5:19
Quench not the Spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God divides the soul and the spirit.
Shows us what is of God, and what of man. Divides between the earthly and the Heavenly, the natural and the Spiritual.

Jude 1:19
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

So if Matt 10:28 refers to a body and soul being destroyed, then everlasting torment is for the remaining spirit to endure.
Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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Hey Zeena,
I was curious what your church/denomination background is. You definitely have some interesting and different theology from myself and I might better be able to respond if I knew where you were coming from. :)
 
Hey Zeena,
I was curious what your church/denomination background is. You definitely have some interesting and different theology from myself and I might better be able to respond if I knew where you were coming from. :)
I'm in Christ.

A Non-Denominational Christian. One who holds to naught but God in Christ.
Constantly growing in Grace, I neither know it all, nor feign to.
But I deign to speak, rather, what I know.

That is all.

You?
 
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OK,
But have you received any Bible training from a source other then a non-denominational church? Would you say that there is any one church or movement that influences your Bible theology? Or does your Bible knowledge come simply from your own personal study in the Word with no outside influence? I am curious because you make some very distinct doctrinal statements that are not held in mainstream Christianity and I wondered if there is an affiliated group of people that think this way as well.
I hope this does not sound insulting, I do not mean to, I am just seeking clarity.
 
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OK,
But have you received any Bible training from a source other then a non-denominational church? Would you say that there is any one church or movement that influences your Bible theology? Or does your Bible knowledge come simply from your own personal study in the Word with no outside influence?
There are many ideologies, I could pick and chose one or two from probably every denomination, including the RCC and Eastern Orthodox religions (who say they are not a denomination). I find I have most in common with the Methodist denomination.

I have studied Orthodoxy, Roman Catholisism, Wesleyanism, Baptist, Nazareene, Calvinism and Methodism.
I was baptised Nazareene, not that it matters.

I study the Word under the tutelage of our Father, through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

You?
 
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Thanks.
I see now this is sidetracking the thread now, I apologize for not asking in PM.
I grew up in a CBA church. (Conservative Baptist Association) I was there for the first 18 years of life. Took about 7 years off from any organized church. and the last 10 years I have been mostly attending non-denominational churches. My ideologies come heavily from Reformed doctrine and teaching.
 
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I am curious because you make some very distinct doctrinal statements that are not held in mainstream Christianity
What is mainstream Christianity?

Was it not Jesus Who said, Wide be the road to destruction, and narrow to road to Everlasting Life? [paraphrased]

and I wondered if there is an affiliated group of people that think this way as well.
Perhaps. perhaps not.

I could care less, but for your ponderance. ;)

I hope this does not sound insulting, I do not mean to, I am just seeking clarity.
The studies of non-dispensationalism.
 
What is mainstream Christianity?

Was it not Jesus Who said, Wide be the road to destruction, and narrow to road to Everlasting Life? [paraphrased]

Yeah good point. I think I would rephrase that as traditional Protestant Christianity.
 
Thanks.
I see now this is sidetracking the thread now, I apologize for not asking in PM.
I grew up in a CBA church. (Conservative Baptist Association) I was there for the first 18 years of life. Took about 7 years off from any organized church. and the last 10 years I have been mostly attending non-denominational churches.
Non-Denom are usually 'good', as far as 'churches' are concerned.

I myself, am anti-churched. I do not believe in born again believers being subjected to a man on a pulpit while the sheep sit there and listen. If 'church' were different, more interactive, where every member of the 'congregation' were equal, no one was given a 'doctorine', none put on a 'pedastal', coming togather as ONE body in Christ.. THAT I could, and have, attended.

I'm all for coming together, but the question is, to what ends?
Is it to marvel at Christ in (and through) each one of us? SURELY!
Is to to marvel at the intellect of one brother (or sister), nope!

Also, though I can be corrected, I don't believe these forums to be of the formal sort, where we must stay on topic or suffer dire consequences.

No harm ,no foul bro :)

My ideologies come heavily from Reformed doctrine and teaching.
Reformed and Calvinistic theologies have a lot in common. I can see now why you felt oblidged to take me to task, though you've yet to respond to my posts, and most importantly, to what the Lord has said through the hand-picked Scripture I quoted in regards to the topic you swung this to. :p

MeH!
 
Yeah good point. I think I would rephrase that as traditional Protestant Christianity.
Was Luther decieved, ever?

Protestant Christianity is based on the the 95 thesis of this one man, isn't it?

I believe He missed a few..

Original sin being one.
 
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Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
On a side note, notice that the Spirit within man is not said to be destroyed in hell?
Ecc 12:7 said:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
While I believe man is created a triune being, I do not believe he is a triune being apart from the Spirit of God.

When we die, the Spirit returns to God, Who gave it, as God, through the Scripture, clearly states.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 34:14-15
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

1 Pet 1:24
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Acts 17:25
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
 
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Going back to the original topic.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Zeena, I apologize I'm not following your thought progression very well. I believe the discussion was "does the soul persist in eternal torment or not?" We have slipped into a discussion of the nature of man, Trichotomous vs Dichotomous (3 vs 2 distinctive natures).
Which is all fine and dandy if it can point us back to the original topic at hand.
 
Going back to the original topic.



Zeena, I apologize I'm not following your thought progression very well. I believe the discussion was "does the soul persist in eternal torment or not?" We have slipped into a discussion of the nature of man, Trichotomous vs Dichotomous (3 vs 2 distinctive natures).
Which is all fine and dandy if it can point us back to the original topic at hand.
It's destroyed, as God, through the text, says.

I guess it boils down to what you believe 'destroyed' to mean.

Me, I dk. :eek:

Does one 'cease to exist' after being destroyed by God? :confused:
Or, does one exist in a hypostatic state of destruction forever and ever? :confused:

I think one of the Scripture verses I quoted earlier could used useful as a referrence point, for starters;

Job 34:14-15
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Was Adam alive before he was created from the dust?

Also, isn't Eternal Life only for the Righteous?
Would these souls be "alive" in their destruction?

What say you?
 
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I'm going camping for 3 days. I'll do some reading and get back to you.

<space reserved>
 
Mark 9:47-48
English Standard Version (ESV)
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Jesus is referring to the maggots that eat corpses in the garbage pile (Gehenna). When all the flesh is eaten, the maggots die. Jesus is saying, that hell never ends, and that is why 'their worm does not die.' I take this to mean that those that go to hell have an eternal body as well as those in Heaven. The fire is not quenched as those there are in eternal torment.
 
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np, I'm seriously grieving atm, so no woories.

Hope you've had a wonderful weekend with faily and friends :)
 
Ok, so rewinding a little bit this debate rests on a principle that must be established before delving into the annihilationism vs eternal torment debate. It is that of the eternal soul of a man. If you fall off on the "conditional immortality" side of things which the Jehovah Witnesses and even a rare few evangelicals now do then it is a logical jump to the annihilation of the soul upon judgement. If you fall on the other view of the eternality of a person then you will go the other way.

So first let's look at the nature of man. We are soul and body (or as pointed out here spirit/soul and body). When in the beginning, God created life in man by breathing into him. This nature is one that does not die. Here's the scriptures to back this up.

"Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come out; those who have done good—unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil—unto the resurrection of damnation!" John 5:28-29

Though the body will die the soul does not. There is a general resurrection which Jesus told his disciples that all who are in the graves will come back.

Abea brought this verse up and I think it's important to point out again:

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The same word eternal (aion,aionios) used to describe the eternal existence of God (Rom 1:20) is used to describe the duration of the suffering of the lost as well as the duration of the life of those who are saved by faith through the imputed righteousness of Christ.

There is an eternality to our destinations which is why Calvin and Luther both agreed that the soul of man was in fact eternal. They differed on the timing and location of the soul upon death, but that is another discussion altogether.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Since the soul is eternal it will have an eternal dwelling place as well. In what form will the resurrection of damnation take we do not know. We don't even know what we will be like, those whose trust is in Christ, when we are raised up in heavenly incorruptible bodies as well. We only see this dimly now.

Soul is where our love and pride and desires live. God want to save our souls as well as redeem our bodies and all of creation from the death and decay of sin. Contrast this with the Gnostic belief that our body and soul (our desires and being) are worthless and only the Spirit matters. They believe falsely that Jesus was not in a body form, but rather just a Spirit. Christ has a Body today. Christ was resurrected and lives now in bodily form. "He will not abandon my soul to Sheol". What an encouragement that God wants to fix / redeem / restore and make whole our souls and our bodies.

tl;dr version - every man is eternal and God has an eternal destination for every man.

Further readings:
http://www.reformedliterature.com/warfield-annihilationism.php
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/review_PetersonFudge.pdf
 
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