CCGR
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I didn't like Black and White either
Magic in games
- Thread starter Armethous
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Dude! I finally see that it's not jiosprey! It jjosprey! D'oh! It all makes sense to me now.
Okay back to reality. Maybe. Again, there is only one God in Lord of the Rings (I forget his name, but he cast out Melkor, who did not sing with the other spirits, and instead turned to disharmonius music, and became Morgoth, who mentored Sauron (and destroyed the Two Trees...).
And Black & White. Yeah I heard about that. You are God (basically). You have a creature that you inhabit and you make everyone worship you, willingly or not. You fight off other gods' creatures to keep your own/protect your own. You can go evil/good. Your monster learns as you do, up to a max of 500k of knowledge. Pretty cool. But I don't like to play games where I'm God. StarCraft, is cool, because I am "Executor" (PROTOSS 0WN!), "Magistrate", and "Cerebrate." How cool is that? I'm an awesome Protoss with blades on my arms, a Terran or a blob! Protoss rule!
And I, uh, haven't played...WarCraft. BUT I'M GONNA GET WCIII SOON!
Okay back to reality. Maybe. Again, there is only one God in Lord of the Rings (I forget his name, but he cast out Melkor, who did not sing with the other spirits, and instead turned to disharmonius music, and became Morgoth, who mentored Sauron (and destroyed the Two Trees...).
And Black & White. Yeah I heard about that. You are God (basically). You have a creature that you inhabit and you make everyone worship you, willingly or not. You fight off other gods' creatures to keep your own/protect your own. You can go evil/good. Your monster learns as you do, up to a max of 500k of knowledge. Pretty cool. But I don't like to play games where I'm God. StarCraft, is cool, because I am "Executor" (PROTOSS 0WN!), "Magistrate", and "Cerebrate." How cool is that? I'm an awesome Protoss with blades on my arms, a Terran or a blob! Protoss rule!
And I, uh, haven't played...WarCraft. BUT I'M GONNA GET WCIII SOON!
Well, I hate to be a lurker butting in (maybe some might recognize me), but I just wanted to defend lotr.
The god in lotr is Eru, and appropriately he gets directly involved about as often as our God. The flood near Rivendale didn't involve Eru, nor any Valar or Maiar. Elves, unlike men, have personal magical ability (which is not evil; in real life, for a man to use magic he has to get it from either God or some demonic source, God being inherently good and demonic sources being what the Bible condemns).
Ignoring the movie for a moment (I really, really hated how Jackson changed that scene), Elrond, through use of one of the three Elven rings (imbued with power by elves), had control over the river near Rivendale. In other words, there was no praying to nature for protection, or anything like that. Elven power was directly used to cause the flood. It's like throwing a rock at someone.. you use nature, but you supply the energy. I.e. no wiccan involved. (Actually, Tolkien was Roman Catholic for those who don't know.)
As for meshing that with the movie.. I suppose the interpretation that involves the least difference from the book would be to say Arwen was able to communicate to Elrond over a short distance, and she was just telling him to get the water moving.
Is "Attack, my men!" a literal translation, or were you just guessing to explain a point? Just wondering. By the way, Rivendale was founded near the river, not the other way around (just a small detail).
Anyway, have fun tearing into me or moving on; your choice.
The god in lotr is Eru, and appropriately he gets directly involved about as often as our God. The flood near Rivendale didn't involve Eru, nor any Valar or Maiar. Elves, unlike men, have personal magical ability (which is not evil; in real life, for a man to use magic he has to get it from either God or some demonic source, God being inherently good and demonic sources being what the Bible condemns).
Ignoring the movie for a moment (I really, really hated how Jackson changed that scene), Elrond, through use of one of the three Elven rings (imbued with power by elves), had control over the river near Rivendale. In other words, there was no praying to nature for protection, or anything like that. Elven power was directly used to cause the flood. It's like throwing a rock at someone.. you use nature, but you supply the energy. I.e. no wiccan involved. (Actually, Tolkien was Roman Catholic for those who don't know.)
As for meshing that with the movie.. I suppose the interpretation that involves the least difference from the book would be to say Arwen was able to communicate to Elrond over a short distance, and she was just telling him to get the water moving.
Is "Attack, my men!" a literal translation, or were you just guessing to explain a point? Just wondering. By the way, Rivendale was founded near the river, not the other way around (just a small detail).
Anyway, have fun tearing into me or moving on; your choice.
[b said:
Careful on the small spoiler in there. You sort of gave away something from the story.
In some respects, I liked this general part of the movie more than the book. It was much more suspenseful. The book was sort of la-de-da through this part, whereas the movie gave a tense sense of urgency.
It annoys me whenever the movie is different then the book.I know they have to adapt it for the screen but how many differences where there between The Two Towers book and the movie?
Enough ranting it wasn't wiccan and I never even thought about it being wiccan until it was brought up here.I belive the Holy Spirit gives christians descernment in these areas.
Oh lol about jjosprey.
Enough ranting it wasn't wiccan and I never even thought about it being wiccan until it was brought up here.I belive the Holy Spirit gives christians descernment in these areas.
Oh lol about jjosprey.
It annoys me whenever the movie is different then the book.I know they have to adapt it for the screen but how many differences where there between The Two Towers book and the movie?
Enough ranting it wasn't wiccan and I never even thought about it being wiccan until it was brought up here.I belive the Holy Spirit gives christians descernment in these areas.I also never new Tolkein was catholic.
Oh lol about jjosprey.
Enough ranting it wasn't wiccan and I never even thought about it being wiccan until it was brought up here.I belive the Holy Spirit gives christians descernment in these areas.I also never new Tolkein was catholic.
Oh lol about jjosprey.
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No no no SirNukes. I do not pretend to be an Elvish interpreter or reader of the language (though I am getting adept at the runes, primarily thanks to my experience with Ultima Underworld and love of all things Dwarvish).
As I said, it could have been all she said: "Attack my men (even though she is not a leader of the Elves in any fashion save bloodline)!" True enough it is Elrond who masters the river, but also understand that this is a movie...sad but true. It cuts back on the splendor. Arwen didn't approach them either in the book and take Frodo to Rivendell (which is also hidden in a valley...not across plains of trees). It was Glorfindel (the guy who was cut down in The Two Towers). "Noro lim, noro lim, Asfaloth!"
And once again, true enough on Elvish magic. (Don't forget that the Dwarves themselves have enchantments of sorts for their treasure to add sparkle and luster to them...but those days are lost now.) You must have studied LOTR as much as my friend did (she SPEAKS and WRITES the freaking language of the Elves!).
I knew of what Tolkien was (he was the one who aided in the conversion of the great atheist we now know as one of the leading apologeticists, CS Lewis), though. And Wiccans...they're tough to explain. Really. Their worship, methods, setup and whatnot are really screwed up. There seems to not be much order except obey the ones in power or risk their wrath. Seriously, such is the way of witchcraft.
It's Rivendell, too, not Rivendale, just FYI. Sorry I can't bear to see its name defiled. Just kidding!
But for future note, it's Rivendell. (And the original name of Gandalf's sword WAS Clamdring, but was changed by the editor to Glamdring)
Also in The Two Towers...the fight at Helm's Deep was MAYBE 15 to 20 pages. Not the entire focus of the book. They also edited out a humongous portion dealing with Shelob the Spider and the vial that was used to blind her many eyes...and how Frodo dies and Sam goes after the Ring and whatnot. Butchered Two Towers, but kept Fellowship fairly intact except for a few minor points. Like the smoke when Bilbo disappeared. There was SUPPOSED to be a flash of light from Gandalf to aid in the masking of the invisbility of Bilbo (he just whuf and was gone).
But whatever. No need to dissect. It was relatively well-done (though it is sinful that they neglected the Barrow-wights, the Old Forest, Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil!).
Magic rocks, FYI.
And I don't think magic comes from God...only from demonic sources. Which is why God hates us to use magic and witchery.
As I said, it could have been all she said: "Attack my men (even though she is not a leader of the Elves in any fashion save bloodline)!" True enough it is Elrond who masters the river, but also understand that this is a movie...sad but true. It cuts back on the splendor. Arwen didn't approach them either in the book and take Frodo to Rivendell (which is also hidden in a valley...not across plains of trees). It was Glorfindel (the guy who was cut down in The Two Towers). "Noro lim, noro lim, Asfaloth!"
And once again, true enough on Elvish magic. (Don't forget that the Dwarves themselves have enchantments of sorts for their treasure to add sparkle and luster to them...but those days are lost now.) You must have studied LOTR as much as my friend did (she SPEAKS and WRITES the freaking language of the Elves!).
I knew of what Tolkien was (he was the one who aided in the conversion of the great atheist we now know as one of the leading apologeticists, CS Lewis), though. And Wiccans...they're tough to explain. Really. Their worship, methods, setup and whatnot are really screwed up. There seems to not be much order except obey the ones in power or risk their wrath. Seriously, such is the way of witchcraft.
It's Rivendell, too, not Rivendale, just FYI. Sorry I can't bear to see its name defiled. Just kidding!
But for future note, it's Rivendell. (And the original name of Gandalf's sword WAS Clamdring, but was changed by the editor to Glamdring)
Also in The Two Towers...the fight at Helm's Deep was MAYBE 15 to 20 pages. Not the entire focus of the book. They also edited out a humongous portion dealing with Shelob the Spider and the vial that was used to blind her many eyes...and how Frodo dies and Sam goes after the Ring and whatnot. Butchered Two Towers, but kept Fellowship fairly intact except for a few minor points. Like the smoke when Bilbo disappeared. There was SUPPOSED to be a flash of light from Gandalf to aid in the masking of the invisbility of Bilbo (he just whuf and was gone).
But whatever. No need to dissect. It was relatively well-done (though it is sinful that they neglected the Barrow-wights, the Old Forest, Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil!).
Magic rocks, FYI.
And I don't think magic comes from God...only from demonic sources. Which is why God hates us to use magic and witchery.
Oops. My cheeks are red. It is Rivendell. 
Sorry, I haven't been reading Tolkien for a while now. I know, it's not much of a defense, but it's all I have. And to clarrify, I do not know as much as your friend. There are plenty of Tolkien fans who know a lot more than I; I just happen to know a lot more than most people who have seen the movie.
True, Fellowship does differ a lot from the books, and Two Towers moreso. I was mainly just aiming at defending lotr as not being Wiccan.
Thanks for not tearing into me, by the way. I wasn't sure when response to expect, exactly. And sorry about the spoilers. I assumed that people who might care about it have already seen the movie.
As for magic coming from God, let me clarrify what I was saying. By magic, I mean events which disobey the generally known behavior of the universe (physics), which would include any miracle mentioned in the Bible. I see God and the angels, fallen included, as having this ability to do what can be called magic.
The big difference, I suppose, would be that when God and his angels use their power, it's almost always as a single event. This being in contrast to the relatively rare occurence of men being given power, such as Sampson's strength or the apostles' ability to heal. These abilities would, of course, be taken away if the people involved do not follow God's wishes.
Demons, on the other hand, are much more likely to give power over to men and let them roam around with it. After all, it is a fairly good way at corrupting people. If you see magic as more of this power with which a person can do what they want, then yes, only demons would be a source of such magic.
I hope I clarrified that a little bit.
Sorry, I haven't been reading Tolkien for a while now. I know, it's not much of a defense, but it's all I have. And to clarrify, I do not know as much as your friend. There are plenty of Tolkien fans who know a lot more than I; I just happen to know a lot more than most people who have seen the movie.True, Fellowship does differ a lot from the books, and Two Towers moreso. I was mainly just aiming at defending lotr as not being Wiccan.
Thanks for not tearing into me, by the way. I wasn't sure when response to expect, exactly.
And sorry about the spoilers. I assumed that people who might care about it have already seen the movie.As for magic coming from God, let me clarrify what I was saying. By magic, I mean events which disobey the generally known behavior of the universe (physics), which would include any miracle mentioned in the Bible. I see God and the angels, fallen included, as having this ability to do what can be called magic.
The big difference, I suppose, would be that when God and his angels use their power, it's almost always as a single event. This being in contrast to the relatively rare occurence of men being given power, such as Sampson's strength or the apostles' ability to heal. These abilities would, of course, be taken away if the people involved do not follow God's wishes.
Demons, on the other hand, are much more likely to give power over to men and let them roam around with it. After all, it is a fairly good way at corrupting people. If you see magic as more of this power with which a person can do what they want, then yes, only demons would be a source of such magic.
I hope I clarrified that a little bit.
If anyone plans on discussing anything not YET shown in the movies, please surround with all-caps stating so. You can talk about these things, but please put up warnings so those of us who have not finished the books or are waiting for RotK can be surprised. Thanks.
I hope nobody takes this personally. I am not trying to point anyone out. I just want others who may participate in the discussion to be aware there are some people who do not know the entire story. The LotR series has, in some ways, surpassed my fandom of Star Wars, a 25 year legacy of my life.
I hope nobody takes this personally. I am not trying to point anyone out. I just want others who may participate in the discussion to be aware there are some people who do not know the entire story. The LotR series has, in some ways, surpassed my fandom of Star Wars, a 25 year legacy of my life.
Healing and strength at will sure seem like powers to me. Alternatively, demonic magic is just demonic miracles worked through people when they want. It seems that a double standard is needed to seperate the magic/powers/miracles of the two sides. Perhaps I'm missing something.
It did just occur to me that I can't think of any solid instance of demons giving people powers. All instances that come to my mind can easily be classified as deceptions, which suggests that any real magic people are involved with comes from God. Perhaps someone can think of a concrete example of demonic power in people?
Sorry about the ring spoiler. It didn't occur to me that it would matter and take away mistery, it being so long since I read lotr for the first time. I do find it funny, though, that you said you weren't trying to point out anyone and then pointed out people.
It did just occur to me that I can't think of any solid instance of demons giving people powers. All instances that come to my mind can easily be classified as deceptions, which suggests that any real magic people are involved with comes from God. Perhaps someone can think of a concrete example of demonic power in people?
Sorry about the ring spoiler. It didn't occur to me that it would matter and take away mistery, it being so long since I read lotr for the first time. I do find it funny, though, that you said you weren't trying to point out anyone and then pointed out people.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]I do find it funny, though, that you said you weren't trying to point out anyone and then pointed out people.
True.
What I meant, though, was that I wasn't trying to say "Hey look what these guys did!!!! Hey everyone. See this?" And also to let you know I'm not upset or anything. My only reason for writing it was to let future posters recognize not all of us have finished the series.
I have since edited out part of my old post.
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Uber-sorry there SSquared. It won't happen again.
Concrete power? Gadarenes. Guy in the crypt. Was chained repeatedly. ALWAYS broke free. Some naked crazy guy with about 3-6000 demons in him. That's a lot for one guy. Well...the oinkers are nearby and Christ allows them to enter them instead and they go lemur.
Concrete?
Acts 13 or so I believe. Seven sons of Sceva cast out a demon in the name of Jesus "whom Paul preaches." Demon laughs and beats the crud out of all seven (using his man) and sends em out nekkid.
Concrete?
And what happens when some "Angel of the Lord" appears? Why, nothing less than total annihilation or total aid. Take out Egyptians, take out Amalekites (Amorites?), lead Israel around in the desert straight into Canaan to wipe out the three sons of Anak and their kindred, fight with a mortal man who would become the father of God's people, etc.
Angels and demons are very real, as are their powers. The Spirit of the Lord on Samson, on the marching men around Jericho, on Jesus, on Pentecost for the Apostles. Angels to protect the three dudes (Shad, Mesh and Abed), save Daniel (though stalled by "the prince of Babylon"? Sounds like spiritual warfare right there.) Angels to surround I believe Elisha when he was surrounded by the enemy, but they were surrounded by chariots of fire and angels and whatnot. Angels to tend to Christ in the desert after his fasting.
ET CETERA.
Now how often TODAY do you see healing powers and mountain movers and walkers of water? You don't, unless you're willing to pay a small fee of 22.95 to a ministry to witness God's power in action in your life today. Call now and get a 10% discount off your next purchase from this ministry if it is $500 or more. And remember, God bless you, dear brother.
THAT my friend is the magic I see today. The magic of gullible Christianity (and the rest of the world too.)
Concrete power? Gadarenes. Guy in the crypt. Was chained repeatedly. ALWAYS broke free. Some naked crazy guy with about 3-6000 demons in him. That's a lot for one guy. Well...the oinkers are nearby and Christ allows them to enter them instead and they go lemur.
Concrete?
Acts 13 or so I believe. Seven sons of Sceva cast out a demon in the name of Jesus "whom Paul preaches." Demon laughs and beats the crud out of all seven (using his man) and sends em out nekkid.
Concrete?
And what happens when some "Angel of the Lord" appears? Why, nothing less than total annihilation or total aid. Take out Egyptians, take out Amalekites (Amorites?), lead Israel around in the desert straight into Canaan to wipe out the three sons of Anak and their kindred, fight with a mortal man who would become the father of God's people, etc.
Angels and demons are very real, as are their powers. The Spirit of the Lord on Samson, on the marching men around Jericho, on Jesus, on Pentecost for the Apostles. Angels to protect the three dudes (Shad, Mesh and Abed), save Daniel (though stalled by "the prince of Babylon"? Sounds like spiritual warfare right there.) Angels to surround I believe Elisha when he was surrounded by the enemy, but they were surrounded by chariots of fire and angels and whatnot. Angels to tend to Christ in the desert after his fasting.
ET CETERA.
Now how often TODAY do you see healing powers and mountain movers and walkers of water? You don't, unless you're willing to pay a small fee of 22.95 to a ministry to witness God's power in action in your life today. Call now and get a 10% discount off your next purchase from this ministry if it is $500 or more. And remember, God bless you, dear brother.
THAT my friend is the magic I see today. The magic of gullible Christianity (and the rest of the world too.)
Well, I never claimed God and his angels had never used their powers (sorry of I implied it), just that demonic powers in people were iffy. And they still might be. You gave two examples of possessed men showing strength beyond what normal people would show. But these men were also highly motivated (by the demons) to push their strength to its limit, which can explain beating up a small group of people. As for the chains, perhaps someone could look it up, but if they weren't high quality chains it is feasible for the guy to break them (with much effort, I'm sure).
Anyway, my point is that I personally am unsure as to demons being responsible for magic. They are dangerous, yes, and can have great influence over people. I don't dispute that. I just wonder if they are actually giving power to men beyond what men already have. Anyway, please don't take my uncertainty as something I'm trying to push on you.
Anyway, my point is that I personally am unsure as to demons being responsible for magic. They are dangerous, yes, and can have great influence over people. I don't dispute that. I just wonder if they are actually giving power to men beyond what men already have. Anyway, please don't take my uncertainty as something I'm trying to push on you.
Just a wee bit cynical there. Sure, theres been fraud before, but its nowhere near as common as the general public is led to believe. The good ones dont even charge people anything, unless they want to sit in the first couple rows of the stadium. The rest is donations, sure, they ask for donations, but they ask for them as gifts to keep whatever ministry they are going.[b said:
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...I'm the Doomsday Cynic. Of course it'll be cynical, especailly dealing with such things as televangelism or the marketing of the Church...the Angelwalk trilogy didn't do anything to disturb those thoughts.
I believe fraud is more rampant than the public WANTS to believe. It's nothing to hide from. My parents were suckered in by that backstabbing loser Peter Popov. Yeah, the same guy who told people to give up their medications and put faith in God to heal them...and how many died after that? A lot of them. Good for their faith in man, er, God.
And who did the voice of God turn out to be in his ear but his wife on the end of a receiver speaking into him addresses, names, illnesses, relatives and their addresses and afflictions? Of course it had to be God! Who else could know addresses? Certainly not a computer or a few detectives. Certainly not.
And what did it take to reveal him? ...A magician: The Amazing Randi, on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. It took a magician to reveal this charlatan. And how many millions did he sucker? A lot of them.
But who's to slow him than AM 1030's (where I'm at) endless ads for God, medicines, weight destroyers, vitamins, books and kits for God. Or Kenneth Copeland? Or other endless Word of Faith advisors?
There is no end to the suckering of gullible, happy-go-lucky Christians. Just face it.
Donations are the clincher: donate to us that we may keep our ministry up...donate at least 300% more than we need so that we can keep the ministry going. We mean, of course in all of God's good will, to do our pastors well. Buy them $500 suits, and their wives $450 ball dresses, cheap $20000 diamond rings, a personal yacht cruise to the Bahamas, and, of course, a church van for a starving ministry in India. That's the most important part of it all: that church van. Most of the money will go to that rusting sucker. Please help us.
Also you must help us pay off the publishing fees for the endless amount of worthless advice books given out by these loving pastors and their family, and don't forget that we have to pay for their gas as they go about evangelizing. Flying in planes isn't cheap you know. Don't forget also, everyone in America has been saved twice according to our latest statistics: just look at God's wonderful works with your loving charity! Thank you so much and Goblessya, Brothers.
Fraud?
I believe fraud is more rampant than the public WANTS to believe. It's nothing to hide from. My parents were suckered in by that backstabbing loser Peter Popov. Yeah, the same guy who told people to give up their medications and put faith in God to heal them...and how many died after that? A lot of them. Good for their faith in man, er, God.
And who did the voice of God turn out to be in his ear but his wife on the end of a receiver speaking into him addresses, names, illnesses, relatives and their addresses and afflictions? Of course it had to be God! Who else could know addresses? Certainly not a computer or a few detectives. Certainly not.
And what did it take to reveal him? ...A magician: The Amazing Randi, on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. It took a magician to reveal this charlatan. And how many millions did he sucker? A lot of them.
But who's to slow him than AM 1030's (where I'm at) endless ads for God, medicines, weight destroyers, vitamins, books and kits for God. Or Kenneth Copeland? Or other endless Word of Faith advisors?
There is no end to the suckering of gullible, happy-go-lucky Christians. Just face it.
Donations are the clincher: donate to us that we may keep our ministry up...donate at least 300% more than we need so that we can keep the ministry going. We mean, of course in all of God's good will, to do our pastors well. Buy them $500 suits, and their wives $450 ball dresses, cheap $20000 diamond rings, a personal yacht cruise to the Bahamas, and, of course, a church van for a starving ministry in India. That's the most important part of it all: that church van. Most of the money will go to that rusting sucker. Please help us.
Also you must help us pay off the publishing fees for the endless amount of worthless advice books given out by these loving pastors and their family, and don't forget that we have to pay for their gas as they go about evangelizing. Flying in planes isn't cheap you know. Don't forget also, everyone in America has been saved twice according to our latest statistics: just look at God's wonderful works with your loving charity! Thank you so much and Goblessya, Brothers.
Fraud?
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I suppose...when the bad appples just kinda outnumber the good apples, well, I stop noticing the few small good ones.
But then again, I am a cynic, so no surprise there (I'm not being mean...it's true.).
ALso I ain't judging a case: I'm judging what I've seen, and the fruits I've seen aren't very good. Also Christ didn't say that judging a fruit would work in a legal system...it doesn't. Rich Man Bob is nice to orphans but rapes his daughter every night when no one's around...where's his fruit?
But then again, I am a cynic, so no surprise there (I'm not being mean...it's true.).
ALso I ain't judging a case: I'm judging what I've seen, and the fruits I've seen aren't very good. Also Christ didn't say that judging a fruit would work in a legal system...it doesn't. Rich Man Bob is nice to orphans but rapes his daughter every night when no one's around...where's his fruit?
M
Mr_Eon
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I have to agree with Ultima regarding certain types of "Faith Worker", especially those closely associated with the media.
There are far too many people making a very good living from gulling and conning people whose only weakness is a slight one between the ears and a certain predisposition to assume that anyone who mentions God a lot is holy.
Televangelists - no, really ANYONE who works religion for a profit (and I include the Catholic church and others here) should be comitting a sin. In Medieval times Lords and Knights were not allowed to lend money for interest - this was called Usury, and it was believed to lead to all manner of sin. I wonder why, at the same time, the church was exempt, and why it still needs SO MUCH MONEY today?
Eon
There are far too many people making a very good living from gulling and conning people whose only weakness is a slight one between the ears and a certain predisposition to assume that anyone who mentions God a lot is holy.
Televangelists - no, really ANYONE who works religion for a profit (and I include the Catholic church and others here) should be comitting a sin. In Medieval times Lords and Knights were not allowed to lend money for interest - this was called Usury, and it was believed to lead to all manner of sin. I wonder why, at the same time, the church was exempt, and why it still needs SO MUCH MONEY today?
Eon
P
pieman3141
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Elijah was one cool guy with God's power.
Teleportation, speed, fire, death->life, etc.
ALL powers that God gave him.
Elisha too, when he asked for a double portion of Elijah's God-given powers.
Teleportation, speed, fire, death->life, etc.
ALL powers that God gave him.
Elisha too, when he asked for a double portion of Elijah's God-given powers.