Immigration.

[silverleaf]

So you then agree that there laws of the kingdom you must abide by in order to enter it? In the sermon on the mount, Jesus speaks about who will enter the kingdom of heaven. He speaks a great deal about what you must do to enter the kingdom of heaven as well. And he speaks of the consequences of fooling yourself into believing you don't have to follow his guidelines to entering his Kingdom. And it is a lot worse then simply being sent back to your country of origin.

What I mean is that everyone has the right to choose to obey those laws and be a citizen of God, because Jesus redeemed all and we are told no one is beyond redemption, because Jesus is so much more powerful than any sin. So essentially anyone can immigrate and be a Christian, they just gotta agree to the terms and conditions, and I believe there is just one: Jesus is lord of all. In contrast, you can't just march into USA and say give me a green card I promise to obey your laws.

 

[tjguitarz]

I find it interesting, albeit not surprising, that no one brought up the issues of human rights. As a global community, we have outlined a lengthy list of human rights. In countries run by corrupt governments and drug-traffickers, these rights go overlooked and are blatantly violated. People escape to the US to flee economic suppression, drug violence, to be with family, and other reasons that paint them as people in terrible circumstances, not as economic and welfare leeches. I believe it is criminal to NOT offer a helping hand. As Christians, aren't we responsible for loving our neighbors? Shouldn't we hold ourselves to a higher standard (that is, in support of human rights) than others?

The issue is more than it appears at surface level. To prevent ignorance and bigotry, I would implore you to read more about the issue. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but no beliefs should be based on half-stories or half-truths.

Detention centers: illegal immigrants who are caught are detained in detention centers, often for months or years. They are deprived of basic healthcare, to the point of death (well documented) or irreparable damage. There is poor food and water quality. They are physically and mentally abused. They are locked in solitary confinement for petty issues. The prisons are extremely overcrowded.

Children often travel alone and are killed, molested, enslaved, or die along the way. They make this trip in order to be with family who have made it to the US.

A large percentage of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. The below links review the conditions they are escaping. These conditions are common to many parts of Latin America.
A review of all the human rights violations in Mexico
Military abuses -- I'm proud to say that my wife worked on uncovering these abuses.
Abuse of women's rights, kidnappings and disappearances, police abuse

 

[Durruck]

But on the other hand, poor conditions in their own country does not imply that we are required to take them in and tend to their every desire for the rest of their lives.

Naturalize and help them become productive members of society? Sure. But don't make it more desirable to live here illegally (because they get better financial aid and healthcare than some of the working-poor). It's wrong for our own people that were born here to get denied help while we give it to millions of people that just walked in the door.

In Acts 6:1, the disciples get called out for ignoring the needs of the Greek Jews - their own people. Should we ignore the needs of our own people from Maine just because we're from Idaho? Or should we ignore the needs of Texas because we're from Oregon?

We shouldn't ignore the condition in other countries, but oversaturating our system with people we cannot financially support (and then letting them stay indefinitely with no intention of integration) is wrong, too.

 

[Avesther]

TJ, just because it wasn't brought up doesn't mean it was dealt with. Western societies have rules and laws on how to immigrate into their country from oppressive regimes. Those regulations are not there to keep those who need the safety offered out, but to ensure those who truly need it, get in. It is still up to the individual to follow the laws of the country they wish to enter.

It is still breaking Gods law to break mans law that does not conflict with Gods law, regardless of how honorable ones intentions are.

 

[Patriot]

To prevent ignorance and bigotry, I would implore you to read more about the issue.

And there died legitimate discussion. . .

 

[Durruck]

you just had to point it out, didn't you Patriot? I was trying to ignore the insinuation of my ignorance.

Perhaps it was because my family came here through legal means that I support legal immigration (including when our country exceeds normal annual immigration numbers due to an influx of political refugees/asylum cases).

But I have never once considered just showing up in Russia, France, Spain, China, Japan, or Germany...planning to break into the country, register for food, healthcare, housing, and demand that they start speaking English and follow American cultural norms.

And before someone says that it doesn't happen like that here, I want to assure you that it does. I work for a fire department in the inner city where we see a LOT of illegal immigrants. The public at large has decided it's my problem that they don't speak English, or that they have different customs.. and I'm the bad guy when they call 9-1-1 and I can't help them. The fire department on the far side of town took a lot of heat when there was a fire...and one of the residents died because he went back inside to try to save his children - all because the firemen couldn't speak his native language to tell him to stay out (the children were all out safe already).

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

1. To those who are trying to solicit pity for those immigrants who are worse off in other countries you already had it. I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything against legal immigration, reforming immigration problems or against helping in some manner. Rather the process for helping and limits of our capability are the dividing points.

2. Once again to those who want unrestricted immigration tell me how we are supposed to continually support/absorb all the people in the world who would come when we (America) are broke. Nothing can be subtracted from 0 money it's simple incontrovertible math >.< . To do so jeopardizes the welfare of people we are already supporting. To reiterate yes I know there are a lot of suffering people in the world, in fact TOO MANY! If you think America's resources are infinite it's literally an arrogant un-biblical (because the Bible warns against extreme debt) attitude. I'm not debating how much we should give to help others I'm only saying there has to be some limit (legal immigration) and some way to separate the good from the bad immigrants (legal immigration). Yet some in this thread seemingly (maybe I'm wrong) infer there shouldn't be a limit (well at least Obama does). This is why "bleeding heart liberals" are a bad thing. They don't want to legitimately help they just don't want the "bad" feeling from not helping (or alternatively they want to feel good). You can't help everyone because you aren't God! Help until it hurts yourself, help until you have nothing left but don't help until the people you are trying to help SUFFER MORE because of your "help".

3. How is anything in Mexico going to change if we are getting all the "decent" people coming over here? Yeah it sounds cruel and I can understand the desire to flee for the safety of your family but nothing is going to change over there without some kind of a fight. Political or physical someone will have to be there to do that fighting. Do you honestly think the drug cartels and corrupt politicians will all reform without one? I support helping Mexico fix it's problems and becoming self sufficient that's how I want America to help not by everyone coming over here and re-creating the same problems. You tell Mexico to loosen it's immigration and business policies on foreign investment/development (which were much more strict than ours last I looked but that was 10 years ago) and let us come into your country to start up businesses. You send military and (controlled) economic aid. You cut off the drug cartel funding by closing the border. The thing is to do this America must exert pressure on Mexico to change which means they will have to take some pain (which our media will just love >.< ) . Stopping this is the whole crackpot philosophy going around that America is "bad" for forcing it's views on other countries. Mexico doesn't need fish for a day only it needs to be taught how to fish.

4. I was reading that 72 people died (I think it was last year) at the hands of drug dealers while crossing the border. Put this in perspective if the drug dealers are killing while crossing the border why would they not kill people over here. You know what would stop them from killing people over here? Legal immigration that keeps them out.

My personal idea/solution would be a workhouse town for caught illegal immigrants. If they had no criminal record they'd be given a choice between going there or being sent back. It would provide English education, health care, and basic needs in exchange for them doing provided work to pay the bills (which would also cover border security costs). After a set period/limit they could even be eligible for legally immigrating provided...

A. They've learned English.

B. Have a job lined up outside or some stable relative to stay with (a service would be provided to help this).

C. Understand our basic laws and take the oath to abide by them.

Those unwilling to work would be deported or if they have repeatedly illegally crossed the border imprisoned in a more restricted facility. Of course all this would have to be responsibly monitored for abuses which our government has failed before at. Then there would be the media deluge of the poor illegals being forced to work and Mexico's outcry against detaining their citizens /rollseyes.

I've already worked 5 hours on this one post this is why I don't get involved in these things >.< .

 

[Patriot]

you just had to point it out, didn't you Patriot? I was trying to ignore the insinuation of my ignorance.

=D
I enjoy pointing out logical fallacies in debates. Simply because logical fallacies destroy legitimate debate and usually spiral down into insults and name calling.

The current flavor: Ad Hominen - "against the man". Basically, an attack against the person rather than the presented position.

 

[Odale]

...

2. Once again to those who want unrestricted immigration tell me how we are supposed to continually support/absorb all the people in the world who would come when we (America) are broke. Nothing can be subtracted from 0 money it's simple incontrovertible math >.< .

...

My personal idea/solution would be a workhouse town for caught illegal immigrants. If they had no criminal record they'd be given a choice between going there or being sent back. It would provide English education, health care, and basic needs in exchange for them doing provided work to pay the bills (which would also cover border security costs). After a set period/limit they could even be eligible for legally immigrating provided...

I believe you've contradicted yourself. How exactly can we afford that?

I have a similar idea. Use the illegal aliens as clean-up crews for our cities. They go around and clean up for free, and we house them and feed them... like jail, only without the healthcare benefits. After a set amount of time they become eligible for citizenship and begin to pay taxes or get sent back home.

The current flavor: Ad Hominen - "against the man". Basically, an attack against the person rather than the presented position.

I would do the same against you, but I don't believe there's a Latin word for troll. (For future reference, it's spelled hominem.)

=P

Anyway, Sorry for opening up a thread and seemingly ignoring it.

My personal beliefs and what I believe God wants us to do are aligned with what TJ said. The only reason Mexicans are coming in is because Mexico is in such bad shape. Am I saying that we should invade Mexico and make it our 4th Afghanistan? No.... heck no, we can't afford it. But at the end of the day that is why they come here and I think if we really want to stop the illegal immigration problem (as in effectively stop it) then helping Mexico out is the only option.

Or.... we could go to a true flat tax to alleviate most of this... just sayin'.

 

[Durruck]

If the speed limit is 65, and I drive 70... and the cop doesn't pull me over, who is wrong? The implied answer is "both of us"

Letting people stay that have broken the rules to get here is wrong for the same reason - they're wrong for breaking our immigration rules, we're wrong for letting them stay. We have rules that allow political asylum. We have rules for refugees. But the system cannot afford to simply open the doors and let everyone come stay indefinitely for free just because we have a higher earning potential and GDP.

Yes, the drug cartels are making a mess out of Mexico. Yes, the cops are dirty. Yes, the government is a joke. No, that really isn't that much different than a lot of places in America. That same stuff happens on our streets, too. The city I work in has been in the middle of a 3-gang war for years, and it's only getting worse.

The IT director for our church came from Africa as a political refugee, through legal means. He spoke no English when he came, but took the time to learn and integrate into our culture, got a job, put himself through college, and is now a productive member of society. He applied for citizenship and got it, and was allowed to bring his wife here. 15 years later, they've got two kids and live the American Dream.

He is one of the biggest opponents of illegal immigration. He told that he feels like many people look poorly at him because they know he's foreign, wondering if he is actually even allowed to be here. How is it that because our government won't enforce it's own rules that we make our own naturalized citizens feel like trash... and he pays taxes which go to support people that don't even try to follow the rules?

The running joke at work is that we should all just quit.. and call 9-1-1 to get a ride to the ER instead of working through a family doctor. Medicaid and Caresource will pay for it, so why not? Then they'll give me disability and foodstamps because I'm too sick to work.

Garbage.

The biggest difference is between America and God is that God has infinite resources and love to forgive all people, bring them back to Him. America is mostly Godless and pretty much out of resources. All we have is a good credit rating that says we'll promise to pay back loans that we can't support because we're opening the doors to everyone that wants to come in to mooch.

Yes, I understand that many of them want to become legal employees, want to pay taxes, want to do it right. But walking across the border at night isn't the way to do it.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I believe you've contradicted yourself. How exactly can we afford that?

I have a similar idea. Use the illegal aliens as clean-up crews for our cities. They go around and clean up for free, and we house them and feed them... like jail, only without the healthcare benefits. After a set amount of time they become eligible for citizenship and begin to pay taxes or get sent back home.

Uh I don't get you, I don't think I contradicted myself. We can afford it because illegals will be paying for all of it with their free labor. They could grow produce (for consumption and sale) or have their services sold out to bidders (like if you wanted people to assemble your shoes or whatever). It's true there will be an initial outlay of money for ANYTHING the government does to fix the immigration problem, increased security, deportation, even the organizing/monitoring/enforcing in your idea would initially cost money. Since we are already paying money for border security and detention the only differences should be minor starting out. What does it cost for a furnished warehouse by the detention centers? I am sure some companies would even build manufacturing plants out of their own pocket at the promise of cheap labor, they do it in China already. It is an investment which creates revenue not something that creates dependents which cost money. I said "town" and not just "jail" because eventually it would definitely grow to become one. The sheer numbers of illegals (it's estimated we have as many as 11 million already) and the fact we would not let them immigrate until they have work/homes lined up outside would call for a town. As revenue grows from illegals coming in we'd build more culminating in a building a town that would be, somewhat, geographically confining and restrictive of the vehicles (and other imports like guns) in it to keep the illegals there and controlled. Now we could use a small pre-existing town and build it up but pre-existing residents probably wouldn't like it. Of course if the town was dying economically they could desire it as it would no doubt revitalize it. Note I would not want it to turn into a perpetual prison so illegals could choose to be deported at any time, you would just not get infinite chances to try again.

The only real difference between your idea and mine is I don't think we should let illegals have freedom everywhere until they have proven themselves. They could still commit welfare fraud, voting fraud or other crimes without restrictions (of course these need to be addressed on the other end as well). In short I think a little more control, restrictions and monitoring should be present until we can trust them with citizenship. I think it would be more difficult and costly monitoring, controlling, catching and deporting illegals spread all over America rather than in controlled locations.

Also with your idea you say no healthcare but I think I am just misunderstanding you. Since they are not getting paid how are they supposed to obtain legitimate, possibly life or death, medical needs if medical care is not provided?

If the speed limit is 65, and I drive 70... and the cop doesn't pull me over, who is wrong? The implied answer is "both of us"

Letting people stay that have broken the rules to get here is wrong for the same reason - they're wrong for breaking our immigration rules, we're wrong for letting them stay. We have rules that allow political asylum. We have rules for refugees. But the system cannot afford to simply open the doors and let everyone come stay indefinitely for free just because we have a higher earning potential and GDP.

Yes, the drug cartels are making a mess out of Mexico. Yes, the cops are dirty. Yes, the government is a joke. No, that really isn't that much different than a lot of places in America. That same stuff happens on our streets, too. The city I work in has been in the middle of a 3-gang war for years, and it's only getting worse.

The IT director for our church came from Africa as a political refugee, through legal means. He spoke no English when he came, but took the time to learn and integrate into our culture, got a job, put himself through college, and is now a productive member of society. He applied for citizenship and got it, and was allowed to bring his wife here. 15 years later, they've got two kids and live the American Dream.

He is one of the biggest opponents of illegal immigration. He told that he feels like many people look poorly at him because they know he's foreign, wondering if he is actually even allowed to be here. How is it that because our government won't enforce it's own rules that we make our own naturalized citizens feel like trash... and he pays taxes which go to support people that don't even try to follow the rules?

The running joke at work is that we should all just quit.. and call 9-1-1 to get a ride to the ER instead of working through a family doctor. Medicaid and Caresource will pay for it, so why not? Then they'll give me disability and foodstamps because I'm too sick to work.

Garbage.

The biggest difference is between America and God is that God has infinite resources and love to forgive all people, bring them back to Him. America is mostly Godless and pretty much out of resources. All we have is a good credit rating that says we'll promise to pay back loans that we can't support because we're opening the doors to everyone that wants to come in to mooch.

Yes, I understand that many of them want to become legal employees, want to pay taxes, want to do it right. But walking across the border at night isn't the way to do it.

I pretty much agree totally with your post but I did want to say some things, not against it , but based off it.

Yes, the drug cartels are making a mess out of Mexico. Yes, the cops are dirty. Yes, the government is a joke. No, that really isn't that much different than a lot of places in America. That same stuff happens on our streets, too. The city I work in has been in the middle of a 3-gang war for years, and it's only getting worse.

The obvious difference is we have authority to change ourselves but we don't have authority to change Mexico. I've also heard a lot about the crimes in border towns so Mexico's crime rate is definitely influencing ours. Then there are problems going the other way with us shipping Mexico weapons ugh. We will never have a completely sealed border but for those who suggest a completely open border, in this climate, it's crazy.

Letting people stay that have broken the rules to get here is wrong for the same reason - they're wrong for breaking our immigration rules, we're wrong for letting them stay. We have rules that allow political asylum. We have rules for refugees. But the system cannot afford to simply open the doors and let everyone come stay indefinitely for free just because we have a higher earning potential and GDP.

I agree but this brings us to the question of what do we do with the illegals already here? I don't like it but I believe some sort of amnesty will have to happen eventually, after reasonably securing the border that is. I'd give them a chance to register and get in line with certain requirements. If they fail to do so before a certain date I'd ship them to a workhouse to do so or start mass deportations for those unwilling to do so. Problem is some just won't follow rules whatever you do and I just can't see the media or people putting up with the pictures of children, elderly and pregnant women being dragged out of houses :/ .

The biggest difference is between America and God is that God has infinite resources and love to forgive all people, bring them back to Him. America is mostly Godless and pretty much out of resources.

I know and it's not because we have to be it's because we chose to be .

 

[Patriot]

They go around and clean up for free, and we house them and feed them.

Sounds suspiciously like slavery.

I would do the same against you, but I don't believe there's a Latin word for troll.

Really? So you don't believe it's at all worthwhile to point out logical fallacies? You are entitled to your opinion. But once again, this is ad hominem, as it is a personal attack against me.

(For future reference, it's spelled hominem.)

Thank you. My spelling checker doesn't work on Latin words.

 

[Odale]

Uh I don't get you, I don't think I contradicted myself. We can afford it because illegals will be paying for all of it with their free labor...

Right, I get that part, its this next quote that I don't understand and where the contradiction comes in with being able to afford it.

My personal idea/solution would be a workhouse town for caught illegal immigrants. If they had no criminal record they'd be given a choice between going there or being sent back. It would provide English education, health care, and basic needs in exchange for them doing provided work to pay the bills (which would also cover border security costs). After a set period/limit they could even be eligible for legally immigrating provided...

It's true there will be an initial outlay of money for ANYTHING the government does to fix the immigration problem, increased security, deportation, even the organizing/monitoring/enforcing in your idea would initially cost money...

Adding English learning and other basic needs classes only adds cost, no?

...The only real difference between your idea and mine is I don't think we should let illegals have freedom everywhere until they have proven themselves. They could still commit welfare fraud, voting fraud or other crimes without restrictions (of course these need to be addressed on the other end as well). In short I think a little more control, restrictions and monitoring should be present until we can trust them with citizenship. I think it would be more difficult and costly monitoring, controlling, catching and deporting illegals spread all over America rather than in controlled locations...

If I may be honest, I do not like my plan. It is cruel, and in the 21st century, I believe its out of place. If conditions were ideal, I believe we should help Mexico turn themselves around and thus give their citizens fewer reasons to immigrate illegally; but since we can't afford to do that...

I believe my plan affords the illegal aliens less freedoms than your plan, here's why:

1) You get caught.

2) You are confined and restricted to public service for X amount of time and are subject to a background check.

3) You work during the day cleaning streets and doing other productive activities that normal jailed inmates do.

4) After your days work is done you return to your cell, are fed, and go to sleep. You are not afforded the healthcare that normal, citizen inmates are given, only simple bandages and band-aids. It sounds harsh, I know.

5) When your time is up, you have the option to take the naturalization tests or get sent back home.

...Also with your idea you say no healthcare but I think I am just misunderstanding you. Since they are not getting paid how are they supposed to obtain legitimate, possibly life or death, medical needs if medical care is not provided?

The reason my plan doesn't include healthcare is to deter illegal aliens from entering the country. U.S. citizens who are jailed get regular nurse attention, get their medications administered to them, if they are hurt they go to the hospital... and the state pays for it all. There is a lot of money involved with them (my dad is an RN at a prison where we live).

They could grow produce (for consumption and sale) or have their services sold out to bidders (like if you wanted people to assemble your shoes or whatever).

Wouldn't this take away the jobs, or at least compete with U.S. citizens with the same jobs? Isn't this one of the issues with illegal immigration?

Sounds suspiciously like slavery.

Look up hyperbole.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Right, I get that part, it's this next quote that I don't understand and where the contradiction comes in with being able to afford it.

Adding English learning and other basic needs classes only adds cost, no?

I still don't get where the contradiction is, sorry XD! To simplify it the illegal's work would pay for everything having to do with them. Their health care, their incarceration, border security, English education, monitoring, everything involving them they pay from their labor. If they don't turn enough money to pay for things I'm sure things will have to be cut but I think they would. I'm not looking to make a profit off them, because it would probably be abused, illegals just need to become self sustaining. That's because there is no way we can sustain them anymore (and we never should of). Unfortunately I don't believe holding illegals accountable and making them work for a living will be tolerated by the media.

If I may be honest, I do not like my plan. It is cruel, and in the 21st century, I believe its out of place.

I won't speak for your plan but I don't think mine is and it's pretty similar. If honest people are coming over here for a better life that's what it gives them. If I was starving I wouldn't mind working 9-5 for free for a few years if I got what I needed to live, have my quality of life raised and have the potential to earn an even better life down the road. The only thing I fear about my idea (other than it won't happen) is the potential for our government or the illegals to abuse it. If a system can be "gamed" someone will.

I also don't think people have somehow evolved in the 21st century (if that was your inference IDK). It is true our social structures have advanced allowing us new options but sin is the same and will be until Christ comes back. Bankrupt those structures (and they will at some point as per Revelations) and we are right back where we were.

If conditions were ideal, I believe we should help Mexico turn themselves around and thus give their citizens fewer reasons to immigrate illegally...

Yes I agree.

I believe my plan affords the illegal aliens less freedoms than your plan, here's why:...

...3) You work during the day cleaning streets and doing other productive activities that normal jailed inmates do.

It sounds like you are going to have guards actually monitoring them chain gang style 24/7 which does sound more restrictive than my idea. I thought you meant they would be un-monitored, in public, during work hours and they would just have to report in after work.

You are not afforded the healthcare that normal, citizen inmates are given, only simple bandages and band-aids. It sounds harsh, I know....

...The reason my plan doesn't include healthcare is to deter illegal aliens from entering the country. U.S. citizens who are jailed get regular nurse attention, get their medications administered to them, if they are hurt they go to the hospital... and the state pays for it all. There is a lot of money involved with them (my dad is an RN at a prison where we live).

Are you deliberately being silly now? I don't see how that would work the first time an illegal dies because he was denied insulin it's going to be all over the news. Furthermore I wouldn't be willing to do it anyway. I'm not suggesting paying for tummy tucks but if an illegal needs glasses see to do his job I think it's reasonable. Now we are straying into health care issues so I digress. I'm sure denying medical care would be a deterrent to some trying to come over for medical reasons but I'd much prefer just to deny the illegals earning citizenship. If you did that they could still work for what they need to live and have the ability to be deported when they wanted to insuring no perpetual servitude.

Wouldn't this take away the jobs, or at least compete with U.S. citizens with the same jobs? Isn't this one of the issues with illegal immigration?

You would lose some but you would also gain some.

1. The money generated from the illegals would be put paying for their needs but that means hiring trained workers. In other words what you lose in low paying labor jobs to illegals you gain in creating jobs for trained American citizens. Jobs like English teachers, border security, construction workers, mechanics, truckers, shipping, accountants, doctors, whatever jobs that are needed to tend to millions of people.

2. It's true I don't buy into the idea that educated Americans won't do "menial labor", they will if they need the money, however I expect many of the "lower" jobs are outsourced to China and foreign countries already. I am thinking those are the jobs the illegals will compete with not with American jobs. It could give an opportunity to raise tariffs too.

3. How is your idea any different regarding Americans losing jobs? Whether it's cleaning streets or working in a warehouse it's still a job. Still it would probably be good to focus on jobs the illegals would consume as it were. Things like growing their own food and consuming it produce little impact on our job market.

4. If you really want no impact on jobs you'd have to deny them citizenship so they could not come over and take a permanent job. I'm ok with that if you fear their illegal actions are being rewarded. Though I'd rather give them some chance to be a legal immigrant.

Look up hyperbole.

Bwah? That makes it sound like you were not discussing seriously at all, I was.

Note: Also I know Patriot mentioned slavery but slavery isn't bad rather it's the abuse of slavery that is bad, like alcohol. Thing is nothing we are talking about is slavery as the illegals would have the choice to not come over here to begin with or to leave/be deported at any time they wish. I'd rather not get off topic into slavery further so I will stop here.

 

[Odale]

Perhaps my plan seems worse than I am imagining it. If the illegal aliens get hurt on the job then they get simple treatment from staff. If they get hit by a car cleaning the roads then they'd get sent to the hospital. If they have a life threatening condition (e.g. not getting their insulin) then they should get it, but at some form of cost to the alien. Also, it makes me wonder where they were getting it in the first place. Furthermore, if they are here illegally, should they benefit from the services naturalized citizens benefit from? No. I have friends who are immigrants and they feel the same way as Durruck's friend does - they loathe illegal immigration too. I think what my idea offers is much better than where they were coming from in the first place.

Slavery is always bad. I mentioned hyperbole because Patriot equated my idea to slavery, which it is not. I don't know, but me being a southerner and all I think that hit a chord and did not resonate well with me. My idea states you are freed (in one direction or another) after your time has been served, there is no such action in slavery - hence the hyperbole.

Regardless of all of the possible distractions with these ideas, I believe we have already gotten side tracked with what we think should happen and what God says should happen.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Regardless of all of the possible distractions with these ideas, I believe we have already gotten side tracked with what we think should happen and what God says should happen.

Yeah I just wanted to propose a solution. Too many times people say something is bad but offer no solutions to the problem.

 

[Odale]

Yeah, I know.

 

[Patriot]

Slavery is always bad. I mentioned hyperbole because Patriot equated my idea to slavery, which it is not. I don't know, but me being a southerner and all I think that hit a chord and did not resonate well with me. My idea states you are freed (in one direction or another) after your time has been served, there is no such action in slavery - hence the hyperbole.

So what part were you exaggerating? Because here it sounds like you are defending your idea as you stated it. . .

And, quite frankly, Israel's slaves were freed every 50 years (if they chose to be free) in the year of Jubilee.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

So what part were you exaggerating? Because here it sounds like you are defending your idea as you stated it. . .

I think he was saying you were exaggerating by saying it was slavery not that he had made an exaggeration. It confused me too until he explained it in more depth.

And, quite frankly, Israel's slaves were freed every 50 years (if they chose to be free) in the year of Jubilee.

I would have mentioned that too but I didn't want to get off topic into defining slavery, it's abuses, it's proper use etc. . Suffice to say if you can leave at any time you wish you aren't enslaved.

I may stop posting in this thread soon. If someone should ask me a question don't take it as a refusal to answer. It just takes me so long to write some replies and I've got other things to do.

 

[Abba San]

And, quite frankly, Israel's slaves were freed every 50 years (if they chose to be free) in the year of Jubilee.

Yet - as far as we know - the year of Jubilee was NEVER practiced. Other than the Leviticus commandments and the Numbers reminder, there is no mention of it actually occurring in either biblical or non-biblical sources.

It became more a spiritual symbol for the day when all Isreal would be set free and restored to its rightful place.

I think we may take a Jubilee in this thread as well. It has been an interesting discussion. Now we are getting into our ideas on how to solve problems and pretty far from, "What does God say about..." it.