Immigration.
- Thread starter Odale
- Start date
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
Are you referring to legal immigration or illegal immigration. If the latter, I think the Bible is clear on submitting to the authorities.
Odale
Active Member
Both, and applicable laws.
Avesther
New Member
The simple answer is that God is the ultimate immigration officer. God banned Moses (of all people) from entering the promised land.
The bible says to treat the alien among you fairly and justly. And that alien is also commanded to follow the laws of the land except when the laws of the land contradict Gods commandments. There is nothing in the bible contradicting the notion that nations can have and enforce immigration laws. Breaking immigration laws is breaking a governmental law. Breaking a governmental law that is not in contradiction to Gods law is never biblical. Being an illegal alien is a sin and enforcing the laws of the land is right.
Now where as if the laws are unjust but not in contradiction of Gods commandments, there is still no room to break them. Agreeing that most illegal aliens are in a country to make life better for themselves does not give them any right or pretense of justice for breaking the governmental law. The goals and motivations of these people may well be good, it is not biblical to break the law for something "good". Caring for the poor, widows and aliens is something the bible commands us to do, but we are not to break the law in doing so. Supporting, harboring and enabling illegal aliens would then also be in violation of Gods word.
Law makers will be held to account for their unjust laws. If you feel convicted that an immigration law is unjust, then it is up to you to do what ever you can to right it, legally. Thankfully in the Western Democracies you can do so with your vote and through campaigning your elected officials.
The bible says to treat the alien among you fairly and justly. And that alien is also commanded to follow the laws of the land except when the laws of the land contradict Gods commandments. There is nothing in the bible contradicting the notion that nations can have and enforce immigration laws. Breaking immigration laws is breaking a governmental law. Breaking a governmental law that is not in contradiction to Gods law is never biblical. Being an illegal alien is a sin and enforcing the laws of the land is right.
Now where as if the laws are unjust but not in contradiction of Gods commandments, there is still no room to break them. Agreeing that most illegal aliens are in a country to make life better for themselves does not give them any right or pretense of justice for breaking the governmental law. The goals and motivations of these people may well be good, it is not biblical to break the law for something "good". Caring for the poor, widows and aliens is something the bible commands us to do, but we are not to break the law in doing so. Supporting, harboring and enabling illegal aliens would then also be in violation of Gods word.
Law makers will be held to account for their unjust laws. If you feel convicted that an immigration law is unjust, then it is up to you to do what ever you can to right it, legally. Thankfully in the Western Democracies you can do so with your vote and through campaigning your elected officials.
So pretty much as Christians we have two rules.
1. Love the Lord your God with all you got. (my paraphrase).
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
So, my stance is the government can make any laws it wants. As a Christian, I will stand opposed to them in view of my Christian faith.
1. Love the Lord your God with all you got. (my paraphrase).
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
So, my stance is the government can make any laws it wants. As a Christian, I will stand opposed to them in view of my Christian faith.
Durruck
Pirate!
Every nation is biblically allowed to protect itself from outsiders. God told Nehemiah to rebuild the wall to keep out those that weren't supposed to be on the inside. Guards would patrol the walls, looking for people that didn't belong... then throw them out.
why would patrolling our borders be different?
why would patrolling our borders be different?
Acts 10 comes to mind.
And Nations can protect their borders and go to war and kill and out law Christianity.
It does not mean my faith has to support them.
As I said before, nations have the right to make laws.
I have the responsibility to live out my faith. They can contradict.
And Nations can protect their borders and go to war and kill and out law Christianity.
It does not mean my faith has to support them.
As I said before, nations have the right to make laws.
I have the responsibility to live out my faith. They can contradict.
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
I'm wondering if you can flesh out some of these contradictions. Loving your neighbor includes submitting to the authorities (speed limits, murder, etc) in real sometimes detailed ways. Saying "all I need to do is love God" in that vacuum is the "faith" that can lead extremists to do horrible things in the name of God as they say the call to a higher-law than the land and justify their actions.
Love for a neighbor (and Jesus would define our neighbor - see Good Samaritan - as anyone who is in need no matter how distant away or what race) that Peter extends via the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 is not a political statement of race, but a spiritual embrace by God to all men.
The spiritual Church, of which as a believer we are members, does not contain its citizenship on earth. We have a home. It's not here. However, we live within man-made borders and countries just as Jesus did. He made it very clear we should give to Caesar what belongs to him (pay taxes, etc) and Jesus didn't try to create a political upheaval (although many today do just like Judas wanted him to).
So unless there is a biblical reason (a calling to our heavenly citizenship) why we should endorse and support illegal immigration we should not support breaking the law as it would not be "loving God" to do so. Legal immigration, however, is a beautiful thing.
Patriot
Active Member
Just to throw a monkey wrench in the works. . .
So you love your neighbor that is coming here illegally by supporting them in that effort. That's all fine and dandy. But what about the neighbor who is here? When the neighbor you allowed to come here illegally takes his job? Or worse, the person here illegally turns out to be a felon?
Allowing them to come here illegally has repercussions on neighbors around you. It's not a cut 'n dried issue by any stretch of the imagination.
That being said, the immigration system as it currently exists is antiquated and in desperate need of an overhaul.
I wonder some times if other countries have these debates? I know Australia has some incredibly stringent immigration policies (way worse than the US) because I support a missionary who had a beastly time just getting a religious visa for that country.
If you are in favor of an open border comparatively shouldn't the immigration requirement to accept Jesus to get into Heaven be removed? One of the reasons it cannot be just an open border is you have to be willing to be changed by Christ. Imperfection in Heaven (you unchanged) would make Heaven imperfect would it not? Likewise you can't let a bunch of murders in to murder in our country and expect happy days.
I unfortunately don't have a direct Biblical quote but I think this is a common sense issue. If you have a life boat it holds a certain amount of people. Going over that limit the boat sinks and everyone drowns. Why is there a debate on this? It is a fact, not conjuncture, that neither America or any other country has infinite resources. Now you can debate how many resources are available to give away or if we even should but the fact remains there is a limit therefore there must also be some limit, controlled immigration, in how many dependents you take in. Actually we don't have any resources to give away we've been giving away other people's resources for a long time I.E. the national debt. When you borrow money to give it away with no plan to repay it it's called stealing.
My Father was in line at the store yesterday and watched a Mexican couple buy food with food stamps, food for the baby with a WIC card, and then several cartons of cigarettes and beer (we are talking moocha money here). Then they walked over to the lotto machine and put 2 brand new 20 dollar bills into it. Maybe they were getting ready to die and this was a one time splurge judging them is not the point. The point is America throwing away money without reasonable(it will never be perfect) oversight needs to stop, it helps no one. The gross amount of wasteful, selfish/feel good/win votes, spending this country does will ruin it, it is not a question of if but when. Just what do you think will happen to all it's dependents then? Controlled immigration is part of stopping that. You let people in when you can afford it, who are at least willing to make the statement they will respect your laws.
Just a side note, much is said about the poor suffering illegal immigrants but people don't seem to realize to ease their suffering you have to make other people suffer. 14.1 million people are without jobs right now (Hispanics are 11.6 percent of them) you can't tell me none of them would be willing to do the jobs the millions (between 11-20 million~) of illegal immigrants do. Of course all those illegals don't actually have jobs...
I unfortunately don't have a direct Biblical quote but I think this is a common sense issue. If you have a life boat it holds a certain amount of people. Going over that limit the boat sinks and everyone drowns. Why is there a debate on this? It is a fact, not conjuncture, that neither America or any other country has infinite resources. Now you can debate how many resources are available to give away or if we even should but the fact remains there is a limit therefore there must also be some limit, controlled immigration, in how many dependents you take in. Actually we don't have any resources to give away we've been giving away other people's resources for a long time I.E. the national debt. When you borrow money to give it away with no plan to repay it it's called stealing.
My Father was in line at the store yesterday and watched a Mexican couple buy food with food stamps, food for the baby with a WIC card, and then several cartons of cigarettes and beer (we are talking moocha money here). Then they walked over to the lotto machine and put 2 brand new 20 dollar bills into it. Maybe they were getting ready to die and this was a one time splurge judging them is not the point. The point is America throwing away money without reasonable(it will never be perfect) oversight needs to stop, it helps no one. The gross amount of wasteful, selfish/feel good/win votes, spending this country does will ruin it, it is not a question of if but when. Just what do you think will happen to all it's dependents then? Controlled immigration is part of stopping that. You let people in when you can afford it, who are at least willing to make the statement they will respect your laws.
Just a side note, much is said about the poor suffering illegal immigrants but people don't seem to realize to ease their suffering you have to make other people suffer. 14.1 million people are without jobs right now (Hispanics are 11.6 percent of them) you can't tell me none of them would be willing to do the jobs the millions (between 11-20 million~) of illegal immigrants do. Of course all those illegals don't actually have jobs...
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ursen
Officer SOE/LoE/Where's "here"?
I have friends who are here legally, and illegally, both categories are trying desperately to meet INS requirements. The illegal family was here legally, but due to errors by their home church, oversight by themselves, and an inefficient INS, they lost their visa. Now they are in a catch 22, you can't get a visa without a job, you can't get a job without a visa. Their son is 9 years old, was born here and has no knowledge of his parents primary language. So the husband is forced to work for peanuts under the table. The INS knows where they are and their situation, but is too swamped to want to do anything about it is the only saving grace so far. Do we deport them to meet the letter of the law? Or show Christ's love and compassion? No we cannot support a flood of illegal immigrants, but surely we can work for a rational over haul of the immigration laws, and a clean up of the INS. This with an overhaul of the individual state and federal social services programs to fix the rather insane idea of granting aid to illegal immigrants would help tremendously.
Patriot
Active Member
*Cough* California *Cough*
silverleaf
New Member
So, understandably, we are to treat the foreigner fairly, and I'm against racism and all that. However, can't just let in ANYONE, right?
And technically barring them is not treating them very fairly, so that law would in my opinion contradict the command.
So I think illegal immigration is debatable, but legal don't think there's any issue... I'm more concerned with under what conditions can we biblically turn down visas?
On the other hand if we let anyone in, soon the place won't be much better than the place these folks are running from.
Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
I agree with silverleaf - we are to treat foreigners fairly - racism is contrary to NT Christian teaching.
But I disagree that
Not at all. I might have agreed at one point years ago. My change of mind comes from discussing the issues with numerous legal immigrants - Hispanic and Asian - who are quite upset that they followed the laws and policies then are looked at askance because of all those who do not. They ask for equal application of the laws.
Again, I agree with silverleaf
Who we allow to come in, and how, is a different discussion from people who come in legally then lose that legality. We have both Hispanic and Chinese congregations in our church. People get married here in America and have a legal and an illegal spouse - then kids. One example I'm thinking of - do you send the mother away and she may never get back in? Another example - legal immigration, lose the job they came to fill, lose visa - now they are illegal, but their family has joined them here in America. Ship him back without his family?
The whole "who's eligible for support" issue is highly debatable. The economic repercussions are huge here in California.
Biblically, in the OT, not everyone was allowed to enter or remain in the Promised Land. In the NT not everyone is allowed to enter God's family or kingdom. The Bible doesn't teach "all inclusive." There are requirements.
Gotta run - enough for now.
Avesther
New Member
Quoting because I agree with it. Jokingly I said God was the ultimate immigration officer when he didn't allow Moses in the promised land. This takes it even further in that it illustrates how God is the ultimate immigration officer into his Kingdom as well. Many will come to the gates but God will not allow illegal aliens into the kingdom.
silverleaf
New Member
well back in the day traders pretty much went anywhere they liked. Sure they weren't citizens but there's a difference between not letting someone in, and not letting them be a citizen. Obviously some places are citizen only, like the temple. But back in the day you pretty much sailed whereever you want to go, or so that's my impression when everyone kinda gets scattered throughout the land. And in the OT there were a lot of non Isrealites living in the land freely, working and doing business there.
It was a lot less complicated in those days, but there were foreigners in the promised land. Naturally there are conditions, but (don't quote me on this) so long as they abided by the rules, they were allowed to earn a living and contribute to the economy. Jerusalem was a trade hub right? Back in the day, pack your mule, you can enter any market your country is not hostile with.
Note that this is more of a work permit issue than an immigration/migration issue.
Of course this is just my oversimplification, in reality much more factors come into play, especially since the citizen, and indeed anyone on your nation's soil, has more rights and privileges than in the past where everyone was pretty much a slave to the king.
So as for my beliefs on this matter, I still feel oppressing the foreign worker is wrong and they should have some rights, such as fair wage, but taking in anyone is just not feasible, and it didn't happen in the past either. I would stop short of welcoming everyone in. Being a Roman citizen was supposedly great in the NT, a preveledge that was difficult to obtain. You can't even be whipped for breaking the law when in context law back in the day pretty much was whipping or execution for anything major. However if you wish to live or do business in the empire it was easier.
As for God's kingdom depends on how you look at it. No one is restricted from birth, everyone has a right to citizenship - conversion. Basically drop your old citizenship (whatever idols they were worshiping, or in case of atheists, overt materialism) and accept Christ. Whatever else you have to do else is debatable but I'm of the belief you're saved after you accept Christ. Other's definition of discipleship may differ though, and depending on who you ask, discipleship may not = default 'citizenship' of being saved, but something else.
Like I said, I may be wrong, this is what I understand so far.
It was a lot less complicated in those days, but there were foreigners in the promised land. Naturally there are conditions, but (don't quote me on this) so long as they abided by the rules, they were allowed to earn a living and contribute to the economy. Jerusalem was a trade hub right? Back in the day, pack your mule, you can enter any market your country is not hostile with.
Note that this is more of a work permit issue than an immigration/migration issue.
Of course this is just my oversimplification, in reality much more factors come into play, especially since the citizen, and indeed anyone on your nation's soil, has more rights and privileges than in the past where everyone was pretty much a slave to the king.
So as for my beliefs on this matter, I still feel oppressing the foreign worker is wrong and they should have some rights, such as fair wage, but taking in anyone is just not feasible, and it didn't happen in the past either. I would stop short of welcoming everyone in. Being a Roman citizen was supposedly great in the NT, a preveledge that was difficult to obtain. You can't even be whipped for breaking the law when in context law back in the day pretty much was whipping or execution for anything major. However if you wish to live or do business in the empire it was easier.
As for God's kingdom depends on how you look at it. No one is restricted from birth, everyone has a right to citizenship - conversion. Basically drop your old citizenship (whatever idols they were worshiping, or in case of atheists, overt materialism) and accept Christ. Whatever else you have to do else is debatable but I'm of the belief you're saved after you accept Christ. Other's definition of discipleship may differ though, and depending on who you ask, discipleship may not = default 'citizenship' of being saved, but something else.
Like I said, I may be wrong, this is what I understand so far.
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Avesther
New Member
There is really no difference today is there? As a Canadian, I can go to the Canada\US border with my passport and get permission to visit the USA. All I have to do is have a passport, not have a criminal record and if I do, get the appropriate pardons. It's not hard. I've been to the US a great deal many times. I've driven and flown across the border to shop, visit and vacation.
The only difference is if I wanted to immigrate I would have to fill out the proper forms. It is not hard.
This is not true in every nation. But for the most part, the largest difference in the western nations is the difference between being there legally versus illegally. And there is no reason to be in any nation illegally.
I don't think anybody would disagree that any foreign worker should be oppressed. Illegal foreign workers should be deported back to their country of origin. That has nothing to do with oppressing them. This is called consequences of bad decisions.
So you then agree that there laws of the kingdom you must abide by in order to enter it? In the sermon on the mount, Jesus speaks about who will enter the kingdom of heaven. He speaks a great deal about what you must do to enter the kingdom of heaven as well. And he speaks of the consequences of fooling yourself into believing you don't have to follow his guidelines to entering his Kingdom. And it is a lot worse then simply being sent back to your country of origin.
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
I'm liking this conversation. It makes me think about the church and how many people unsaved are "just visiting" every Sunday, but they haven't applied for citizenship with the Father yet. And how we as Christians are called to meet them and call them to citizenship as well.
So many illegal "aliens" in the church that no one seems to care about, but everyone gets up in arms about real illegal aliens. Funny how our physical lives and spiritual lives intersect like this.
So many illegal "aliens" in the church that no one seems to care about, but everyone gets up in arms about real illegal aliens. Funny how our physical lives and spiritual lives intersect like this.
Durruck
Pirate!
I agree Lloren. We've actually touched on this subject a few times in my youth group.
Although I have to admit, it had quite the opposite effect with the same outcome that I desired: Four of my youth have decided to leave my group because they feel like they are more of a distraction than anything, and want to focus on their faith and growth in the Lord, with the intention on coming back as peer leaders when the time is right.
They felt God telling them it was time to take their faith seriously and stop living just as Sunday morning Christians.
Although I have to admit, it had quite the opposite effect with the same outcome that I desired: Four of my youth have decided to leave my group because they feel like they are more of a distraction than anything, and want to focus on their faith and growth in the Lord, with the intention on coming back as peer leaders when the time is right.
They felt God telling them it was time to take their faith seriously and stop living just as Sunday morning Christians.
Kyrel Ruth
New Member
This was in my email this week, from Max Lucado:
Judas, The Man Who Never Knew
I’ve wondered at times what kind of man this Judas was. What he looked like, how he acted, who his friends were.
I guess I’ve stereotyped him. I’ve always pictured him as a wiry, beady-eyed, sly, wormy fellow, pointed beard and all. I’ve pictured him as estranged from the other apostles.
Friendless. Distant. Undoubtedly he was a traitor and a quisling. Probably the result of a broken home. A juvenile delinquent in his youth.
Yet I wonder if that is so true. We have no evidence (save Judas’s silence) that would suggest that he was isolated. At the Last Supper, when Jesus said that his betrayer sat at the table, we don’t find the apostles immediately turning to Judas as the logical traitor.
No, I think we’ve got Judas pegged wrong. Perhaps he was just the opposite. Instead of sly and wiry, maybe he was robust and jovial. Rather than quiet and introverted, he could have been outgoing and well-meaning. I don’t know.
But for all the things we don’t know about Judas, there is one thing we know for sure: He had no relationship with the Master. He had seen Jesus, but he did not know him. He had heard Jesus, but he did not understand him. He had a religion but no relationship.
As Satan worked his way around the table in the upper room, he needed a special kind of man to betray our Lord. He needed a man who had seen Jesus but who did not know him. He needed a man who knew the actions of Jesus but had missed out on the mission of Jesus. Judas was this man. He knew the empire but had never known the Man.
Judas bore the cloak of religion, but he never knew the heart of Christ.
We learn this timeless lesson from the betrayer. Satan’s best tools of destruction are not from outside the church; they are within the church. A church will never die from the immorality in Hollywood or the corruption in Washington. But it will die from corrosion within—from those who bear the name of Jesus but have never met him and from those who have religion but no relationship.
Judas bore the cloak of religion, but he never knew the heart of Christ. Let’s make it our goal to know … deeply.
From Shaped by God (original title: On the Anvil)
Copyright (Tyndale House, 1985, 2002) Max Lucado
.
Judas, The Man Who Never Knew
I’ve wondered at times what kind of man this Judas was. What he looked like, how he acted, who his friends were.
I guess I’ve stereotyped him. I’ve always pictured him as a wiry, beady-eyed, sly, wormy fellow, pointed beard and all. I’ve pictured him as estranged from the other apostles.
Friendless. Distant. Undoubtedly he was a traitor and a quisling. Probably the result of a broken home. A juvenile delinquent in his youth.
Yet I wonder if that is so true. We have no evidence (save Judas’s silence) that would suggest that he was isolated. At the Last Supper, when Jesus said that his betrayer sat at the table, we don’t find the apostles immediately turning to Judas as the logical traitor.
No, I think we’ve got Judas pegged wrong. Perhaps he was just the opposite. Instead of sly and wiry, maybe he was robust and jovial. Rather than quiet and introverted, he could have been outgoing and well-meaning. I don’t know.
But for all the things we don’t know about Judas, there is one thing we know for sure: He had no relationship with the Master. He had seen Jesus, but he did not know him. He had heard Jesus, but he did not understand him. He had a religion but no relationship.
As Satan worked his way around the table in the upper room, he needed a special kind of man to betray our Lord. He needed a man who had seen Jesus but who did not know him. He needed a man who knew the actions of Jesus but had missed out on the mission of Jesus. Judas was this man. He knew the empire but had never known the Man.
Judas bore the cloak of religion, but he never knew the heart of Christ.
We learn this timeless lesson from the betrayer. Satan’s best tools of destruction are not from outside the church; they are within the church. A church will never die from the immorality in Hollywood or the corruption in Washington. But it will die from corrosion within—from those who bear the name of Jesus but have never met him and from those who have religion but no relationship.
Judas bore the cloak of religion, but he never knew the heart of Christ. Let’s make it our goal to know … deeply.
From Shaped by God (original title: On the Anvil)
Copyright (Tyndale House, 1985, 2002) Max Lucado
.