How to make TeamFortress 2 even better

[Tek7]

Four simple ways to make TF2 better:

1. Remove crits. Crits belong in a PvE MMO setting, not a human v. human FPS game. Using luck to determine who lives and who dies is fine (if annoying) when you're playing an AI opponent; it's not acceptable in a competitive FPS.
2. Nerf the Scout's shotgun. A class whose primary advantage is speed should not be able to two-shot an offensive class or one-shot a support class. The Scout's shotgun is absurdly overpowered for a light and fast class.
3. Make it clear when I've shot a Spy. There's been more than one time that I've pegged a disguised enemy Spy with several syringes and seen no blood. There is no significant visual clue that I've shot an enemy Spy and not one of my team members.
4. Nerf the Spy's cloak. If I know where a Spy was two seconds ago, he or she shouldn't be able to cloak and slip away two seconds later. This isn't so much a problem when I'm a Pyro, but it's a real pain when I'm a Medic.

Two great server rules to make the game more fun:

1. Ban defensive Scouts. Scouts are designed for fast forward movement, not buzzing around the enemy like gadflies. There's nothing more annoying in TF2 than defensive Scouts.
2. Class limits. Class limits, class limits, class limits. If I see one more defending team on cp_dustbowl with 5 Engineers and 5 level 3 sentries, I'm going to scream.

 

[|CoR|Braveheart]

Well isn't it still the Beta? they will change stuff for the Official release.

 

[Tek7]

Well isn't it still the Beta? they will change stuff for the Official release.

Nope. Official release was Oct. 10.

 

[Icthus]

And he is being very nit picky...

The only one I agree with is the scout gun being too powerful.

As a spy it is not that easy to cloak and get away and with no real speed bonus the only defense a spy has is cloak.

the 5 engineers can be counter with 5 spies or 3 medics and 2 heavies.

I personally think some maps need some work and the respawn timers are too long.

In Granary for example I have never seen a team win going one direction. So there seems to be a huge advantage to going the other.

But, my 2 cents. It is not worth much.

 

[Corpfox]

[*]Make it clear when I've shot a Spy. There's been more than one time that I've pegged a disguised enemy Spy with several syringes and seen no blood. There is no significant visual clue that I've shot an enemy Spy and not one of my team members.

What effects does a syringe do to enemies? contagious infection?

Is the game balanced?

Tek7 should be "nit picky" cause he is a true fan of TF. I would feel annoyed too if a sequel game wasn't as good as the original.

 

[|CoR|Braveheart]

Nope. Official release was Oct. 10.

Oh, darn ok never mind.

 

[Tek7]

And he is being very nit picky...

Aye, I admit I am being picky, but it's because I enjoy the game so much already and feel it could be improved with a few simple changes.

As a spy it is not that easy to cloak and get away and with no real speed bonus the only defense a spy has is cloak.

It might be that the Spies I've encountered have been especially quick to trigger their cloak, but it seemed as though they disappeared less than 3 seconds after backstabbing someone. Something as simple as a delay on the cloak (3-5 seconds, perhaps?) might be enough to help balance the classes.

Then again, maybe the Spies I've played against were just very quick and earned their getaway.

the 5 engineers can be counter with 5 spies or 3 medics and 2 heavies.

Trouble is, when 5 Engineers build 5 sentry guns and never leave their SGs, it makes it nearly impossible to destroy more than one at a time. If you do manage to destroy one or even two, the Engineers have rebuilt the guns by the time the enemy returns.

Spies can smack sappers on sentry guns, but all it takes is a swipe or two from an Engineer's wrench to take out the sapper. In most command point maps, many Engineers will maintain a line of sight on the sentry gun at all times--or, at the least, when the enemy is near the command point.

As for Medic + Heavy: A level 3 sentry gun damages a Heavy more quickly than a Medic can heal him or her. Even if the Heavy is able to stand toe-to-toe to a level 3 sentry gun with two Medics in tow, there are often multiple sentries located at key command points.

Since grenades (and, more specifically, MIRVs) have been removed from the games, there's no reliable counter to 4+ level 3 sentry guns.

I personally think some maps need some work and the respawn timers are too long.

I like most maps, but agree that some could use minor fixes. I wholeheartedly agree that the respawn timers are too long.

But, my 2 cents. It is not worth much.

Icthus, your input is always valuable. You've been playing games for some time now, so you have the experience to know what makes games great.

What effects does a syringe do to enemies? contagious infection?

Nope. The Medic's ability to infect enemy team members was removed in TF2. As much as I loved tagging the enemy with my cardboard box medkit and spreading infection, I find that I don't really miss it that much.

Is the game balanced?

For the most part, yes. There's a strong "rock, paper, scissors" element to the game, meaning that class A will beat class B most of the time but class A is vulnerable to class C. For example, Spies are great counters to Heavies, but Pyros are great counters to Spies.

Tek7 should be "nit picky" cause he is a true fan of TF.

To be fair, I never played the original TeamFortress--only TFC and other iterations (like Q3F). Still, it's true that TF is one of my favorite styles of play in the FPS genre.

I would feel annoyed too if a sequel game wasn't as good as the original.

Actually, I feel the sequel is significantly improved over the original. While it still has some flaws that can be frustrating, it's a great step in the right direction.

I personally don't care for Counter-Strike. It always felt like "spray and pray" team deathmatch to me. In the TF games, I was able to find something I was good at--even though I can't aim worth a hoot. I can play a Soldier to deliver explosive damage, a Scout to run flags, or a Medic to heal my teammates. I don't have to have precision aiming and "twitch" sk1llz to contribute to the team effort.

Aye, I admit I'm very nitpicky about the games I play. I suppose it might be because I've spent too much time proofreading, but I tend to pick out what I consider flaws in most games I play.

TF2 is a terrific game. I think it could be even better and more fun with a few simple fixes.

But that's just my $.02.

 

[Corpfox]

Aye, I admit I'm very nitpicky about the games I play. I suppose it might be because I've spent too much time proofreading, but I tend to pick out what I consider flaws in most games I play.

TF2 is a terrific game. I think it could be even better and more fun with a few simple fixes.

But that's just my $.02.

Maybe you should be a game critic.

 

[Shagz]

re: the whole spy thing...I read any interview with two of the developers of TF2, one from the original TFC crew and one from Valve, and they talked about how they find it fun watching the community discover the game, because it's mirroring phases that they went through while play testing the game.

For example, first out of the gate was the Heavy+Medic combo, and everybody was on the forums going "nerf 'em!" But then the community figured out that Sniper will make mince meat out of that kind of offense. The developers mentioned that there seems to be a glut of spies right now on the servers, but they were saying in time, people will figure out how to combat that tactic as well.

Personally I find it *really* tough to play Spy, so any one who can do it well and "earn their escape" by timing their cloaking correctly deserves my respect.

Besides, you want to weaken the spy, and then you mention that Spies need all the help they can get against a team of Engineers.

And speaking of the 5 engie problem, I think you just need a co-ordinated team to take 'em down. I don't think Heavy's are the right "Rock" to take out those "Scissors". You need co-ordinated Soldiers to flank the engies, Demomen to bounce grenades around corners. Soldiers and Demos deliever more damage in a single shot then a Heavy can standing there and firing.

I've also lately seen Pyro's taking out sentries in the Ramp room of 2 forts by getting underneath them and flaming them on the edges. And with 5 engies on the team, 2-3 spies as engies are going to find it easy to slip in unnoticed.

As for your original points...

1. I partially agree with crits. I think they're ok, but I think they need to be more predictable somehow, depending on the weapon. If you hit somebody 3 times with a shotgun, your fourth (consecutive) hit could be rewarded with a crit bonus (to quote that old NBA game, "He's on fire!"). This would have to be tweaked for the heavy, pyro, etc. of course.

2. Partially agree there. I kind of like how the Scout has *some* kind of offensive power, I think that should remain. But perhaps the damage should be reduce a little. A scout who gets the drop on a heavy should be rewarded, but he shouldn't be able take him on face to face (which generally he can't).

3. Apparently they're working on having the syringes "stick" into the player model (read that in the same interview I mentioned above), so that might help.

4. I think the spies ok for now. His cloak can wear out pretty quickly, so if he does clock after a backstab, know the map and where the potential places are that he can decloak away from harm and "chase" 'em.

5. Yea, class limits would be nice, although I really did not expect to see the limits needing to be applied to engineers. I thought snipers would have been abused right out of the gate, but I haven't seen that happen; maybe snipers just aren't as popular...yet.

 

[vibrokatana]

Crits are nasty, if a heavy gets crits for even a half second he can take out 2-3 people across the map in very short order.

I vote that the shotguns all get reduced somewhat, but increase the damage in the back and to the critical areas. Say a scout could get behind a heavy and kill him with 2 or 3 shots from full health.

Spies are fine, it takes a lot of skill, if anything the gun needs to be increased in damage but decreased in firing rate. That thing is nasty right now, the spy as an offensive class is rather funny and deadly.

The problem with the sniper is that they are only effective at long ranges, usually tf2 reduces everything to mid to short range, effectively making the sniper useless and often slaughtered. The machine gun is worthless, almost everyone I see charges me with the shotgun and I am dead because it takes 2-3 clips to actually kill something.

 

[Shagz]

Oh, you guys were talking about respawn times. The respawns are actually dynamic, so the better your team is doing, the shorter your respawns. The worse your team is doing, the longer your wait. This is to give the dominating team more advantages and ultimately break stalemates, a design decision by Valve 'cuz they think stalemates suck.

I've been in games of 2 Fort where it took 15 seconds to Respawn, but in games of Dustbowl that only took me 5 seconds.

Here's that interview I was talking about, BTW.

 

[BassMan449]

I've noticed that the respawn times are dynamic. That is a pretty cool feature, but I still have to say they are too long by default. I would say dynamic of 3-5 sec when doing well and 10 sec otherwise, but 20 sec is way to long especially on large maps. It means you are out of the fight for at least 30 secs.

 

[Glitch]

Remove crits

that.... is... wrong... to put crits into an FPS... that really is wrong.


Now for my question for everyone else...

Is the game worth buying despite these few flaws? do you guys have fun playing? is it a cheap class system? etc. etc. yeah. yeah... you get the idea.

 

[Shagz]

I totally love the game, regardless of crits or anything else. I think all of the above comments are mere quibbles when you look at the game as a whole experience, and shouldn't be the basis on which you make a decision.

As for fun, I think that will really come down to who you're playing the game with. Since it is multiplayer, "game experience may change online".

I've had great sessions where I've teamed with ToJ members or total strangers, and when the communication is flowing right, the game creates all these little "moments" that are just so fun...like the time that Medic ubered the Pyro and they wiped out a room full of sentry guns to clear the way for the rest of the offense...or the time the defense held off the other team long enough for the loan scout to run ahead and cap the next point. And it's great because you had your own unique role to play that was different from everyone else's.

At the same time, I got on a server the other night and players were talking a blue stream of infantile sophmoronic gutter sludge, and my team was in complete disarray as they were spending more time insulting each other than playing the game.

At any rate, if you're going to get the game, don't just get TF2. Get the whole Orange Box. Not sure if you're a Half Life fan, but you get a ton of content in the package (which includes the original HL2 and HL2: Episode One), and the new stuff alone is worth the price. (HL2: Episode 2, TF2 and the totally, undeniably, innovative - and delicious! - Portal)

 

[Tek7]

Is the game worth buying despite these few flaws? do you guys have fun playing? is it a cheap class system? etc. etc. yeah. yeah... you get the idea.

Yes, yes, no.

TF2 is fantastic. The points I posted were merely nitpicks compared to the awesomeness of this game.

 

[Elihu]

I play this game on most nights now and absolutely love what Valve did with it. To be honest there are a few things that could be tweaked, but it def. doesn't stop me from throwing my rockets at people while ubercharged from Tek7 and obliterating a room full of people\sentries. Get the game and come join us. We're really starting to grow and I usually can count on seeing Tek7, whon, Shagz or Icthus online playing with me.