How can an omnibenevolent God allow this to happen?

Marcylene said:
We cannot lose our salvation. So the fact is, DV was never saved. It is hard enough living the Christian life with the help of the Holy Spirit, but without Him...no part of carrying out that feat would be considered the Christian life. I believe it would be akin to relying on works for Salvation. God is the Power, and after Salvation, the only One who can gear us for a walk and growth in Him.
Click to expand...


Again I tread softly. Forgive me for speaking for you DV, but I must interject and We love Marcylene, but the FACT IS DV is saved!!!!! he was saved and the gift of salvation is his to receive. Whether he accepts that gift or not is his choice. But If what he says is true, and I believe him. He was a Christian, He worshipped GOD, he hungered after his word, and he cried after God as only a true disciple can. HE (as a believing Christian) admitted that The Lord Jesus Christ was his savior. He believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth.

THAT MAKES HIM SAVED!

Now if he grieves the Holy Spirit and denies The Lord Jesus Christ, that will not bode well for him, but if secretly in his heart he hold s to the truth, he will remain saved.

The thing that will "unsave" him is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ. And then If he is sanctified by his wife, and after all who am I to call the bible wrong!
 
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. I Corinthians 12:13

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. I John 4:1~3

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. I John 4:15


These verses make me wonder. Do you believe you were once saved, DV? II Corinthians 1:12 tells us that once we are Saved, God keeps that which we have committed to Him. There is no "unsaving".

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

MA, the verse you mention about the wife sanctifying her husband, I Corinthians 7:12~16, that is speaking of Christians who are married to the unsaved. If the unsaved mate is pleased to dwell with the Christian, the Christian is encouraged not to depart from the marriage. In this case, the Christian man or woman may sanctify their unsaved mate. Unfortunately for DV, fortunately for a Christian lady who might be married to him, this verse is not assisting DV!
 
Didasko said:
You are absolutely right, desire just doesn't cut it. That was exactly the point I made in my previous post that you did not understand. It takes more than desire, it takes true repentance, it takes complete belief, it takes a willingness to give control of your life to Christ, it takes the willingness to admit (and believe) your depravity, a belief that you are as a filthy rag and deserving of death for your sins, a belief that Christ died for your sins out of love for you and that He walked out of that tomb 3 days later to deliver a crushing blow to satan. It takes faith...
Click to expand...

And what makes you think I didn't do all of those things?

Lets say for the sake of argument that a Christian can lose their salvation...OK. There is still no possible way that a true Christian could ever stop believing in God. Turn their back on him maybe but never stop believing.
Click to expand...

THAT'S your problem. Anyone who turned from God somehow didn't fulfill the necessary requirements to be a "true" Christian. There IS a way. It happened to me and it has happened to many many people. Are you familiar with Dan Barker? If not, I'd look up his story.

I don't expect a non-Christian to understand this Mr. Bill and DV. You can't understand it...it's not possible.
Click to expand...

Yadda yadda yadda.

Sorry, but that is simply an incorrect statement.

That question in itself is irrefutable evidence that you never knew Christ. DV I am not trying to denigrate you or insult you, I don't claim to be any smarter or better than you. I've lived both sides of the issue, to use your terminology. I thought I was a Christian for years. Like you I read all the right things, said all the right things, did all the right things, knew all the right things that I thought a Christian should know. I also dabbled in evolution, philosophy, and debated with Christians many of the things you debate here. I understand where you are better than you think I do. But I found the truth. Knowing that God opened my eyes gives me hope for you and others like you.
Click to expand...

And what makes you think that it wasn't I that found the truth? Because you don't subscribe to it? For many years the Church believed that the earth was flat. Along came Galileo and challenged that notion. Don't you think those Christians said the same thing you're saying? Who was wrong then?
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
Aha! Figured out the quote thing. :D Anywho, remember a little conversation Jesus had with a thief while they were being crucified?

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Click to expand...

Remember that little conversation Jesus had with his disciples when he said he would return in their lifetime?

Anyway, would you mind then explaining the three resurrections in Revelations? Primarily the first resurrection, but I'd like your take on the other two.

Also Daniel states that everyone will be raised from the dead because we "sleep" in the ground.

Thanks!
 
MontrezAnthony said:
Folks draw closer to the Lord by them throwing their pain and confusion of these events on the Cross, by drawing closer to God thru His word and through prayer. Knowing that even through these tragic events God has a plan and a purpose for each and everyone of us. just because we may never fathom the reasoning behind them, we should not abondon our pursuit of the Kingdom of heaven. You know these things DV you felt them , and lived them once your self and still do in a fashion.

Just because we can not wrap out minds around these events, God can and his will draw the victems(Both Living and Dead) to him.

So how this incident will draw ANYONE CLOSER. Thru the Love of Lord Jesus Christ, Through The Word and Prayer, as it has always done.
Click to expand...

Nicely avoided, but you didn't answer the question.

Draft a hypothetical situation. Pick a victim's family member or a non Christian reading about this even in the news. How will this tragedy draw them closer to God?
 
Thaddius said:
How is that possible? To know God in the sense that is spoken of here, you know and understand the ramifications of turning away from God: eteranal damnation. If a person truly knew God why would they activly **** themselves by conciously turning away? Either they did not know God in the first place or an alternative that I can't speak here without getting in trouble. :)

Cory
Click to expand...

Obviously it IS possible.

Satan did it, didn't he? So did 1/3 of the angels.
 
Marcylene said:
We cannot lose our salvation. So the fact is, DV was never saved. It is hard enough living the Christian life with the help of the Holy Spirit, but without Him...no part of carrying out that feat would be considered the Christian life. I believe it would be akin to relying on works for Salvation. God is the Power, and after Salvation, the only One who can gear us for a walk and growth in Him.
Click to expand...

No offense, but who are you to say I wasn't saved?

How do you KNOW that?

If it wasn't possible, then why are there words like Heretic and Apostate in existence?
 
Obviously it IS possible.

Satan did it, didn't he? So did 1/3 of the angels.
Click to expand...

Yep Satan did. That falls into the second catagory. When someone thinks they are greater than God, pride, selfishness, anger, hatred all these things can lead to a turning away. I never said it was not possible. I just said that either the person did not know God in the first place or falls into catagory #2.

It is one thing to know about God; It is another to know God.

Hmmm, I want to becareful here. I disagree. I can completely understand how someone and completely Revere and Love God and then turn their back on God. I understand this choice

I can sypathize with believeing in God and Lossing Faith. So I think it is complete feasible to lose faith, thru anger, offense. As Men we want intellecual mastery of our universe. We stand and Ask, no demand GOD HOW DARE YOU! I am master of my dominion.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that falls into catagory #2. Again, I never said it was impossible to turn from God.

It's much along the same lines of flying down the freeway at 90mph in heavy traffic and opening the door and jumping from your car. Its possible to do, just not many people are willing to do that when they know the consequences.


Cory
 
Dark Virtue said:
No offense, but who are you to say I wasn't saved?

How do you KNOW that?

If it wasn't possible, then why are there words like Heretic and Apostate in existence?
Click to expand...

I am drawing my conclusion from what the Bible says. If you once believed on the LORD Jesus Christ, His death, burial, resurrection, and sacrifice for your sins, and accepted Him...then you are saved. However, the Bible is very clear about those that do not believe on the Name of Jesus. The Bible says those who do not, never knew God.
With the sources that you go to, it does not surpass me that there is confusion. Remember? You choose God, or you choose satan. That is the way that it is and there is no middle ground. It doesn't matter what means you use, (or rather, how the enemy blinds you), it is either one, or the other. Somehow, the experience you had was not Biblical Salvation. Read the verses that I gave. It is clear. When we are saved, we have the Holy Spirit living within us. I find it impossible to believe that we could quench Him to the point of not believing that there is a God. The Holy Spirit would be pricking you to death!
 
Let's calm down a little. DV. If you are not, that's fine, I get the idea you are a little more than not, because you made a um... 5tuple post. I don't know. Just make it in one post if it is convienient. :D Everyoen calm down. Try to use less um... blunt'ish words...
filthy rag
Click to expand...
Well, I know in MY perspective that is somewhat true, but I can see it's not exactly um... I DON"T KNOW. Forget it. You get my point.



XPXPPXPXPXXpxPXpxXx\x\x\x\x\x\x\x\\x\x\x\xxpxpxppPXPpXxXPx
 
DV satan did turn on God. No question...but one thing is for sure. He never quit believing in God. Huge difference there.

I've said all I have to say, this argument is becoming circular. I will continue to pray for you. My hope is that God will open your eyes and do whatever needs doing to bring you to Christ.

It's been a good discussion.
 
Marcylene said:
I am drawing my conclusion from what the Bible says. If you once believed on the LORD Jesus Christ, His death, burial, resurrection, and sacrifice for your sins, and accepted Him...then you are saved. However, the Bible is very clear about those that do not believe on the Name of Jesus. The Bible says those who do not, never knew God.
With the sources that you go to, it does not surpass me that there is confusion. Remember? You choose God, or you choose satan. That is the way that it is and there is no middle ground. It doesn't matter what means you use, (or rather, how the enemy blinds you), it is either one, or the other. Somehow, the experience you had was not Biblical Salvation. Read the verses that I gave. It is clear. When we are saved, we have the Holy Spirit living within us. I find it impossible to believe that we could quench Him to the point of not believing that there is a God. The Holy Spirit would be pricking you to death!
Click to expand...

I don't agree with this assessment.

You're saying that people make a CONSCIOUS decision to side with Satan if they don't make a CONSCIOUS decision to side with your God.

That is simply not the case.

By not having enough evidence to believe in God, I haven't made a decision to follow Satan. That's like saying since you don't choose to be a republican then you have chosen to be a democrat. That's just plain silly.

Look at it historically. There have been billions of people that were never introduced to Christianity. Did they make a conscious decision to follow Satan? Of course not, that's ludicrous.
 
Dark Virtue said:
I don't agree with this assessment.

You're saying that people make a CONSCIOUS decision to side with Satan if they don't make a CONSCIOUS decision to side with your God.

That is simply not the case.

By not having enough evidence to believe in God, I haven't made a decision to follow Satan. That's like saying since you don't choose to be a republican then you have chosen to be a democrat. That's just plain silly.

Look at it historically. There have been billions of people that were never introduced to Christianity. Did they make a conscious decision to follow Satan? Of course not, that's ludicrous.
Click to expand...


It does not matter what you want to believe or how you try to manipulate it. In Christianity there are 2 options. Believe in Christ or don't. If you don't believe in God and accept His son as the sacrifice for mankind, you don't go to heaven. (unless somehow your perfect and have never sinned) There is only one alternative.

Any other version of this is not Christianity. Even the devil is not fool enough to deny that God exists, he just somehow things he can become more powerful. There is no middle ground. Is it a concious decision to follow satan? That can be debated. As for those that have never heard about Christ, I think Paul does a pretty good job of talking about that in Romans Chapter 2.

Cory
 
Well, it's like a law of physics. You are for God or Against. Period. As much as you like to change that, it will be as fruitless as me trying to make an apple drop UP to the moon.
 
I do not want to guess whether or not DV had accepted Christ at one point in his life. That is between him and God.

Let me propose this thought

(not that this is what occured) it is possible to just speak the words accepting Christ. For example, when I was confirmed in my church, I said that I accepted Christ, but in all honesty, they were just words, reciting whatever I was told to recite. They meant nothing to me. I was just expected to do it.

We, as a body of Christ, should be trying to help DV understand this tragic event and how God fits into it.
 
Nodding my head in an amen to Thaddius! :)

That is what I am telling you, DV. The reason I interjected "or how the enemy blinds you." I think that it is not a conscience decision for most people. Nevertheless, it is the way that it is! We cannot change Spiritual laws and they are far removed from the politics that you liken them to. In addition, you are making assumptions that are incorrect on billions who have not heard the Gospel. Our God is full of grace and merciful lovingkindness...that assumption makes Him to be otherwise.
 
Remember that little conversation Jesus had with his disciples when he said he would return in their lifetime?
Click to expand...

I assume you're talking about this passage in Matt 24:34...

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The word used here for "generation" can be translated as "generation" as in "the people who are living now"... but a more likely meaning is "race". Certainly, there are still Jews on the earth, despite the efforts of Hitler, Antiochus, and countless others.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/srn.cgi?book=mt&chapter=24#Mt24_34

Anyway, would you mind then explaining the three resurrections in Revelations? Primarily the first resurrection, but I'd like your take on the other two.

Also Daniel states that everyone will be raised from the dead because we "sleep" in the ground.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to pretend I'm a scholar of Revelation. I'll tackle this one a bit later, after church. But let me ask you a question, DV... let's say I answer these questions sufficiently for you... will you go back to church? "Re"-become a Christian?
 
Last edited:
This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It is an explanation many people will understand.


A man went to a barbershop to have his haircut and his beard trimmed.

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out to the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God eists, would there be so many sick people?

Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist!"

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty, unkempt long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers do exist! What happens is, people do not come to me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, does exist!
What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. And that's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

Author unknown
Click to expand...


(The post had to be longer sorry)
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
I'm not going to pretend I'm a scholar of Revelation. I'll tackle this one a bit later, after church. But let me ask you a question, DV... let's say I answer these questions sufficiently for you... will you go back to church? "Re"-become a Christian?
Click to expand...

If that was the only question I had regarding Christianity, then yes, I would.

But that isn't my only problem with Christianity and religion in general.

That's like me asking you if I could prove that Easter and Christmas had very little Christian origins, would you denounce your faith?

Let's say I DID want to be a Christian again. Where would I start? What denomination is more right than the other? Catholics would cringe if I suggested turning to a Protestant sect, Protestants would moan if I suggested turning to Catholicism and both would wince if I suggested turning to Jehovah's Witnesses. I've said this before and I will say it again: I would give SERIOUS consideration to Christianity if it were a single unified religion. No sects, no infighting, a religion of solidarity. Unfortunately, Christianity has NEVER been that way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top