How can an omnibenevolent God allow this to happen?

!!! You don't know???

If I know something about school and I know college is hard, that does NOT mean I am truly knowing what it is. Kind of like that. It's like saying, I know touching fire hurts, but I don't know HOW much it hurts... Not a very good analogy, but it gets part of the point across...
 
Marcy, of all the people on this board, I love you most of all.

For the simple fact that we can have heated discussions, but at the end of the day realize that we both respect each other, no matter the differences.

Even if you are a stubborn goat :)

Marcylene said:
GGGGGrr you, DV! The Tower of Babel? The enemy so enjoys twisting the Word. God confounded their language! He was not confusing them. The Bible is true. Period. He is not the author of confusion.
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Genesis 11:9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

9 That is why it was called Babel [a] -because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

You use the word confounded, which is also used in the KJV. Confounded means to baffle, frustrate; to throw (a person) into confusion or perplexity, to increase the confusion of. How did God not author confusion here?

I cannot comprehend. Nothing against you, Mr. Bill, Jim...any unbeliever...it frightens me to death to even dream of the possibility He does not exist! Before I was saved, I knew that I was running from Him, I knew as a very little girl that He existed. I used to think of how lonely He must have been before He created anything. I would try and imagine the darkness...Awful! Unimaginable! An old Saint once said if you want God you have already found Him. That just somehow does not seem to be true in you cases.
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And therein lies the truth. You cannot comprehend BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO. I, however, have been on both sides of the fence and can view it OBJECTIVELY, something that you cannot do, because you do not wish to imagine an alternative.

Don't try and make me out to be an anomoly. There are many, MANY people that wanted to find God and didn't. There is no amount of desire that can make the impossible possible.

I agree wholeheartedly with Didasko. I am in hopes you will take all those words to heart. Please know, words may get seemingly harsh, but everyone here loves you guys and cares for your soul or they wouldn't give you the time of day. And when you are talking about God, you are talking about our Father...who is very real to us. We are not heartless, tragedies like this, and the ones that strike us personally, leave us questioning. Yet, by faith, we know He has the whole world in His hands. He cast the enemy down. He won't stop Him yet, (while He could, it has something to do with the Spiritual realm and laws that I don't think anyone will truly understand in full, this side of Heaven), but He will turn our tears into miraculous joy and work all out for our good!
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The main problem most people are having with this discussion is that they are making it larger than I meant it to be. I am talking about a specific tragedy, one that occurred during worship to God. Why, during this event that one would think would have God's attention, would He turn His back on His followers when they desperately needed Him?
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
Hey DV, I have a serious, non-antagonistic question for you, just because I'm curious. (This is something I've never understood about agnostics.)

Why do you argue so vehemently against something that you say may or may not exist? Wouldn't that cause a kind of indifference?

By the way, my sympathy for your loss. I know it means little, coming from some guy on the internet you don't know, but all the same, I can't imagine the pain you must feel at that loss.
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Thanks WBill, genuinely, thank you.

First off, I'm not an agnostic. Thomas Huxley coined the term, below is his definition:

When I reached intellectual maturity, and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian or a freethinker, I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until at last I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain "gnosis" -- had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion. [...]

So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic". It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant; and I took the earliest opportunity of parading it at our Society, to show that I, too, had a tail, like the other foxes. [Quoted in "Encylopaedia of Religion and Ethics", 1908, edited by James Hastings MA DD]
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I am, by definition, a "weak" atheist. Below is a good definition from infidels.org:

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism".

Regarding people who have never been exposed to the concept of 'god': Whether they are 'atheists' or not is a matter of debate. Since you're unlikely to meet anyone who has never encountered religion, it's not a very important debate...

It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". There is a qualitative difference in the "strong" and "weak" positions; it's not just a matter of degree.

Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.
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More specifically, I am a Freethinker, in the history of those such as Bertrand Russell. A Freethinker is a person who forms opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief.

I hope that clears that up.

Now, you asked, "Why do you argue so vehemently against something that you say may or may not exist? Wouldn't that cause a kind of indifference?"

It doesn't cause indifference. I would be indifferent to the discussion if Christians didn't insist on reminding me that I will spend eternity in hell for not believing. Christians, however, feel it is there God given duty to go out into the world and preach the gospel. Therefore, I feel it is MY duty and my responsibility to voice a defensible opinion. It's a short, simple answer that I hope suffices. I'd be more than happy to expound upon it if you would like.
 
Mr.Bill said:
I don't think DV is saying that he merely thoroughly studied up on the Christian faith, and I don't think it's right that you make that conclusion about him. You base it on inadequate information, making it more of an assumption than anything else. And probably an incorrect one, though only DV can tell you that.
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Why? You did it for me :)

Actually you're a bit incorrect. I didn't merely study the Christian faith. I lived it, breathed it, believed in it. HUGE difference. I wasn't a poser or deluded, or somehow "half" a Christian. I don't understand why Christians always think that those who chose walk away from Christianity somehow didn't understand what it was all about or didn't try hard enough or that sort of garbage.

I guess it's easier than thinking they could be wrong themselves.
 
SilentAssassin said:
!!! You don't know???

If I know something about school and I know college is hard, that does NOT mean I am truly knowing what it is. Kind of like that. It's like saying, I know touching fire hurts, but I don't know HOW much it hurts... Not a very good analogy, but it gets part of the point across...
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Actually, it's a pretty horrible analogy.

Just because I chose not to be a Christian doesn't mean I didn't KNOW what being a Christian meant. You are correct in saying that I didn't KNOW God. I KNEW God as much as I could KNOW Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

Don't assume that I didn't try hard enough or didn't pray hard enough or somehow blame me for not "finding" God. Trust me when I say that I did, that I tried, that I gave it my all with my heart, my mind and my soul.

As I have said before, desire just doesn't cut it.
 
???

Why, during this event that one would think would have God's attention, would He turn His back on His followers when they desperately needed Him?

How is God sending these believers to Heaven turning His back on them?

I went to my manager the other day with a proposal that I thought would be wonderful for our department. She looked at me, and said she didn't think it would fly. When I started spouting off about the benefits of this idea I had, she just stopped me and said to me, "My helicopter is higher than yours."

I asked her what she meant by that, and she replied that she can see more of the landscape of the company from her position than I can. Though my proposal would benefit my department, it would equally be a detriment to three other departments.

You can take a look at this situation and draw all kinds of conclusions, but assuming there is a God (which you don't, I understand, please bear with me) who's helicopter is higher? Yours or His? I have my theories, but they're no better than yours, just as yours are no better than mine. So, we can go back and forth till we're blue in the face, but that does not change the fact that whatever is "out there" is "out there" and will do (or not do) things in the way that fits His plan (or, it's all just random anyway).

Anyway, my opinion is that God decided that their time here was up. Nothing less, nothing more. You can chalk it up as the King of the Universe's plan, or chalk it up to mere happenstance. If you don't like God's plan, He understands. The Bible is full of people questioning God's plan to His face (Moses and the burning bush, Abraham when looking over Sodom and Gomorrah, et al) so I'm sure He's not offended by our questioning of Him in situations like this. But the conclusion I came to is that it's kind of futile to question His omniscience, since He's not going to change.

One thing that I'm certain of-- God is not fair. But then, He never claimed to be. He is righteous, holy, loving and just, but not fair... and I'm OK with that.

If you've read this far, thanks for your patience. I know from checking out your website that it's unlikely to change your opinion, but I hope that you can at least respect mine.
 
Huh? You claim God is just, but that He isn't fair?

What does JUST mean? I took just to mean having a basis in or conforming to fact or reason; acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good. Synonymous with FAIR and UPRIGHT. Please explain the difference between FAIR and JUST.

How is God sending these believers to Heaven turning His back on them?
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If you are going to make this statement, then please use the Bible to back up why you believe that the faithful dead go immediately to a place called Heaven.

Let's assume you are correct. Have you ever been shot? I imagine it to be terribly painful. You assume they died instantly, I've read the news reports, they didn't. Now then, what do you think their family members did? Rejoice and sing psalms to God while their loved ones bled to death? No, they were clutching their mortally wounded loved ones crying out to God to protect them, to heal them, to help them.

I understand that with my finite brain, I will never be able to understand omniscience. I can, and should, however, use my grey matter to observe what is around me. I have observed this massacre and have made my observations known to you.
 
I can, and should, however, use my grey matter to observe what is around me. I have observed this massacre and have made my observations known to you.

I should, and did, use my grey matter to observe the same situation and simply drew a different conclusion. Now, if I could just figure out how to properly quote someone...

As far as when I say "fair" versus "just", I mean this-- let's say that you're a parent, and you have two children. One is best disciplined by spanking, while the other responds to having a toy taken away. Let's say both get into trouble, and you spank one, and take a toy away from the other for a day. One complains that you didn't physically hurt the other one, and that's not fair. The other complains that you didn't take a toy away from the first, and therefore his punishment was over quicker.

The discipline wasn't "fair" to either child, but it was "just" to both because the misbehavior was corrected in the way that would get through to them. I'm very thankful God isn't fair. If God was "fair", by His standard, everyone would go to Hell and there'd be no chance for anyone's salvation. It certainly wasn't fair for Jesus to die in place of me. Uh oh, just opened another point of atheistic contention, that if Jesus was fully God, then it wasn't a big deal for Him to endure the cross... but that's a discussion for another time if you don't mind. :)

Actually you're a bit incorrect. I didn't merely study the Christian faith. I lived it, breathed it, believed in it. HUGE difference. I wasn't a poser or deluded, or somehow "half" a Christian. I don't understand why Christians always think that those who chose walk away from Christianity somehow didn't understand what it was all about or didn't try hard enough or that sort of garbage.

I guess it's easier than thinking they could be wrong themselves.

Just an FYI, this belief comes from the doctrine of "eternal security", which is preached by most evangelical churches. I've heard compelling arguments for both sides of that issue, which I can expand upon if you like (but really isn't necessary). The idea is "once saved, always saved" and that "true" believers can only "backslide" in their faith but not renounce their belief in Christ as Lord and Savior. I've seen plenty of folks with similar stories to yours, DV, so I take the middle ground (as I do on most things)-- I'll take you at your word that you were earnestly seeking God. I also believe that at one point, you believed every word in the Bible, but that somehow, in that time of seeking, you decided that based on the evidence you saw that you were living a lie. I can respect earnest seekers who draw a different conclusion. It won't prevent me from praying for your salvation, but I respect your right to draw your own conclusions about the world.
 
Dark Virtue said:
As I have said before, desire just doesn't cut it.
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You are absolutely right, desire just doesn't cut it. That was exactly the point I made in my previous post that you did not understand. It takes more than desire, it takes true repentance, it takes complete belief, it takes a willingness to give control of your life to Christ, it takes the willingness to admit (and believe) your depravity, a belief that you are as a filthy rag and deserving of death for your sins, a belief that Christ died for your sins out of love for you and that He walked out of that tomb 3 days later to deliver a crushing blow to satan. It takes faith...


Mr. Bill said:
I don't think DV is saying that he merely thoroughly studied up on the Christian faith, and I don't think it's right that you make that conclusion about him. You base it on inadequate information, making it more of an assumption than anything else. And probably an incorrect one, though only DV can tell you that.
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Apparently you misunderstood my post Mr. Bill. I didn't say anywhere in my post that DV 'just studied up on it'. I think DV studied up on it. I think DV went to church and heard it. I think DV tried to believe it. I think DV tried to live the Christian life. But I know DV (if all that he has posted is true and I have no reason to doubt him) did not become saved, which means he was never a Christian and never knew God.

Lets say for the sake of argument that a Christian can lose their salvation...OK. There is still no possible way that a true Christian could ever stop believing in God. Turn their back on him maybe but never stop believing.

I don't expect a non-Christian to understand this Mr. Bill and DV. You can't understand it...it's not possible.

Dark Virtue said:
And that would be?
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That question in itself is irrefutable evidence that you never knew Christ. DV I am not trying to denigrate you or insult you, I don't claim to be any smarter or better than you. I've lived both sides of the issue, to use your terminology. I thought I was a Christian for years. Like you I read all the right things, said all the right things, did all the right things, knew all the right things that I thought a Christian should know. I also dabbled in evolution, philosophy, and debated with Christians many of the things you debate here. I understand where you are better than you think I do. But I found the truth. Knowing that God opened my eyes gives me hope for you and others like you.
 
I »--(¯`v´¯)-» being loved! :)

I believe all posts here and the time they take to be created are geared by Love.

As for the stubborn goat...Who? Once again, the pot calls the kettle black!
 
If you are going to make this statement, then please use the Bible to back up why you believe that the faithful dead go immediately to a place called Heaven.
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Aha! Figured out the quote thing. :D Anywho, remember a little conversation Jesus had with a thief while they were being crucified?

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 
Didasko said:
Apparently you misunderstood my post Mr. Bill. I didn't say anywhere in my post that DV 'just studied up on it'. I think DV studied up on it. I think DV went to church and heard it. I think DV tried to believe it. I think DV tried to live the Christian life. But I know DV (if all that he has posted is true and I have no reason to doubt him) did not become saved, which means he was never a Christian and never knew God.

Lets say for the sake of argument that a Christian can lose their salvation...OK. There is still no possible way that a true Christian could ever stop believing in God. Turn their back on him maybe but never stop believing.

I don't expect a non-Christian to understand this Mr. Bill and DV. You can't understand it...it's not possible.
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In the same way, I don't expect you to understand that there is such a possibility: That it is possible to know God and then abandon him.
 
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. II Corinthians 5:8

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11: 25~26

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psalm 116:15

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. I Corinthians 15:44

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: II Corinthians 5:1~2

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: Philippians 3:20

For if we believe that Jesus dies and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. I Thessalonians 4:14
 
Hmmm... Well we didn't know what you went through, and I did say that was a bad analogy.... XP

Whatever. I'll leave this topic. I'll need to read up on this.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Please explain to me how this incident could make ANYONE, believer or not, draw closer to God.
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Folks draw closer to the Lord by them throwing their pain and confusion of these events on the Cross, by drawing closer to God thru His word and through prayer. Knowing that even through these tragic events God has a plan and a purpose for each and everyone of us. just because we may never fathom the reasoning behind them, we should not abondon our pursuit of the Kingdom of heaven. You know these things DV you felt them , and lived them once your self and still do in a fashion.

Just because we can not wrap out minds around these events, God can and his will draw the victems(Both Living and Dead) to him.

So how this incident will draw ANYONE CLOSER. Thru the Love of Lord Jesus Christ, Through The Word and Prayer, as it has always done.
 
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Mr.Bill said:
Well one answer is that he didn't intervene at all: It just happened. That could be another explanation to the enigma of when and where and why Godly intervention takes place. Have you considered that it doesn't?
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Nothing happens with out Gods Knowledge. God was there when those folks were attacked. We may never know until we get to heaven, who he made sure who was called home and who wasn't. Adn as for why who was choosen. I do not have an answer that will satisfy you.
 
In the same way, I don't expect you to understand that there is such a possibility: That it is possible to know God and then abandon him.
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How is that possible? To know God in the sense that is spoken of here, you know and understand the ramifications of turning away from God: eteranal damnation. If a person truly knew God why would they activly **** themselves by conciously turning away? Either they did not know God in the first place or an alternative that I can't speak here without getting in trouble. :)

Cory
 
We cannot lose our salvation. So the fact is, DV was never saved. It is hard enough living the Christian life with the help of the Holy Spirit, but without Him...no part of carrying out that feat would be considered the Christian life. I believe it would be akin to relying on works for Salvation. God is the Power, and after Salvation, the only One who can gear us for a walk and growth in Him.
 
Thaddius said:
How is that possible? To know God in the sense that is spoken of here, you know and understand the ramifications of turning away from God: eteranal damnation. If a person truly knew God why would they activly **** themselves by conciously turning away? Either they did not know God in the first place or an alternative that I can't speak here without getting in trouble. :)

Cory
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Hmmm, I want to becareful here. I disagree. I can completely understand how someone and completely Revere and Love God and then turn their back on God. I understand this choice

I can sypathize with believeing in God and Lossing Faith. So I think it is complete feasible to lose faith, thru anger, offense. As Men we want intellecual mastery of our universe. We stand and Ask, no demand GOD HOW DARE YOU! I am master of my dominion.

The two things that bring us closer to God are humlity and Faith. With these two things, we can seek out God and humble ourselves to reach the answers we truly need!
 
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