Free Will?

[silverleaf]

Yeah I was always a-wonderin where we go, heaven or earth. Maybe he ment we will be put up in some heavenly hotel (mansion with many rooms, in some versions its 'many mansions') until rapture day?

And also somewhere mentioned we're all gona be kings or something, so who we gona rule over is up to speculation, maybe the unbelievers I dunno (speculation).

 

[Durruck]

Yeah I was always a-wonderin where we go, heaven or earth. Maybe he ment we will be put up in some heavenly hotel (mansion with many rooms, in some versions its 'many mansions') until rapture day?

Just a guess, but maybe a restored Earth - this place, the way God intended it.... is Heaven.

And also somewhere mentioned we're all gona be kings or something, so who we gona rule over is up to speculation, maybe the unbelievers I dunno (speculation).

I'm not familiar with this reference. I don't specifically recall ever hearing about us becoming kings. And Revelation clearly states that the non-believers are banished to the pit with Lucifer upon their judgment.

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The dead (those that were not alive at the time of Jesus' return) were called forth and judged. Those who were named in the Lamb's Book of Life (had accepted Jesus as their savior) were kept. Those who had rejected Jesus during their lives were cast to the second (or eternal) death - separation from God.

 

[RyanB]

I think that your interpretation of his words are slightly out of context. Jesus said that none, except the Lord, are good. He was challenging the rich man to either recant his statement, or admit that Jesus is Lord. The rich man already ackn owledged that Jesus was a rabbi.

I've never looked at that passage in that way, but this seems to make much more sense than the way I was looking at it. I've always thought it was odd that Jesus would refer to himself as not good when He is in fact God as well. Thanks for clearing that up!

But to answer RyanB's question about free will in heaven... once we are purified and Satan is banished from the world, we will have no reason to sin. There will be no Father of Lies, so there will be no lies. It's just speculation on my part, but once we're at the foot of the Throne, our desires will be purified. Revelation talks about all of Heaven singing and praising the Lord. I figure we'll be to preoccupied with getting to know God more intimitely than ever before to bother with lying, cheating, stealing, or lusting.

This is exactly what I believe; and as irony would have it...is a form of free agency. I guess the main difference in my mind is being limited to your nature versus being limited in the temptation to sin...but who knows, haha.

Yeah I was always a-wonderin where we go, heaven or earth. Maybe he ment we will be put up in some heavenly hotel (mansion with many rooms, in some versions its 'many mansions') until rapture day?

And also somewhere mentioned we're all gona be kings or something, so who we gona rule over is up to speculation, maybe the unbelievers I dunno (speculation).

My interpretation of Rev 21 is that the old heaven and earth will be done away with, and we'll live in a new heaven on the new earth. The new Jerusalem will be the holy city.

As for those whose names are not in the lamb's book of life...they will most certainly be thrown into the lake of fire/sulfur. So, they certainly won't be our vassals. I am also quite confused about exactly what heaven will be like...some things make me thing we'll be glorified, and others make it seem like we would be glorifying God (and lovin' it). Perhaps it will be both, similar to how Jesus humbled himself, but God glorified him because of it. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that there'll be a big, big house (with lots and lots of rooms).

 

[ewoksrule]

. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that there'll be a big, big house (with lots and lots of rooms).

And a big, big table (with lots and lots of food)
A big, big yard (where we can play football).....

Rev 21: 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city,new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God

So he sees Heaven (or at least the holy city) coming down out of the heavens. What do you think happens next? It doesn't say it stops coming down... I would imagine that it lands on Earth and then we live in both the new-Heaven and new-Earth at the same time.

Also, It does say in a few places that we will have positions in heaven and some will be rulers over angels.

 

[silverleaf]

With the most powerful supercomputer for each of us for those of us who prefer cybersports to sweatin.
But actually its quite a controversal topic, going off topic a lil (but its k since my Q apparently has no answer) but I am a little doubtful that everyone besides christians and catholics go to hell. A bit debated but if they didn't accept does not automatically equal they rejected, and they will be judged according to their sins.
But yeah depends on your interpretation.

 

[ewoksrule]

I am sure the Bible teaches that without the substitutionary atonement of Christ applied to one's life, one is most certainly on the way to Hell. Christian or Catholic has nothing to do with it. It is not religion that saves someone, it is God giving them grace and the faith to believe in His finished work on the cross. If one does not receive that, there is no payment for their sins and God's justice demands that they pay the wages for their sins...death.

Also there is an answer to your original question. No, you do not have free will, your will is bound. Yes, you do have free agency and the ability to make choices without coercion. Yes, God can see all of life as a movie played out because He is the beginning and the end, He knows everything. He can exist both in and outside of "time and space" because He is Omnipresent. He knows exactly every specific step you will make along the way or He would not be Omniscient. God does not learn as He goes or He is not the God described in the Bible.

It doesn't depend on your interpretation, there is only one truth and that is no one comes to the Father but through Christ. If you do not accept Jesus Christ before you die, there is no second chance.



(I am not trying to be a know-it-all here, I don't... and I do not mean to come across harsh, these are just truths taught in the Bible that I am presenting. I don't know how to say them other then directly.)

 

[silverleaf]

So I take it you believe in fate and the like, that life is linear?
The problem I'm facing is that if God knows the future, there must be a 'set' future. Therefore, nothing we do can change that (we are characters in a linear movie). I couldn't help making this post, neither could you, and earlier on, I couldn't help eating an apple instead of an orange, etc etc.
Is that the case, or does it work... differently? Because if thats the case and everything is linear, then we can't really be held accountable for sin and so on. I mean, we ain't gona go kill the person who acted the villian in some movie because hes just following the script. So such a state cannot exist, or so I don't believe (further reinforced by the reasoning put forth by the numerous posts before) that we are the cast in a great linear movie script of life, but once again, just proving why it cannot exist doesnt prove HOW it can or cannot exist and thats the question here.

Or maybe God can predict the future as in a like playing an RPG after reading the walkthrough, you know what the various quest dialog options do and in this case use them to your advantage to get the most loot outta every quest. Replace that character with you, the quests with the billions of choices we make every day and the dialog options with the various options avaliable for each choice.
Sounds like lots and lots of options but hey he is God he can do anything, even if it means micro-managing at a rate that puts a korean starcraft player to shame.

But then the brick wall in this scenario is that as evidenced many times in the bible, God knows the choices we are GOING to make as well.

Also,

Also, It does say in a few places that we will have positions in heaven and some will be rulers over angels.

Then, how can everyone be happy if there are slaves and servants (besides us all being servants to God of course but thats different)? biblically it is described as a paradise, though I suspect we will be doing a lot more than just singing hymns, eating jewish delicacies and watching the world (in all seriousness, this sounds like a joke but isnt: will we be able to play mmorpgs in heaven? Honestly I'd rather not live without gaming and spending an eternity without gaming... since we're all gamers I'd ask here since you can relate).
Also, I certainly won't be happy if my loved ones are burning in hell, can't eat with all that guilt/sorrow/anger/mixed feelings and all. A few staunch buddists in the family, quite distant but still family. Maybe my preferred (I don't know if I believe it myself or not actually, its origin was rather shady and catholic-like) interpretation that God's love transcends all is false, but I sure hope not. The least (and most) I can do is hope.


TL;DR: While God sees our life and the entire world played out something like a movie, do we have any ability to change the movie? Or is it linear and we might as well just let fate carry us whereever it leads, which hits another brick wall, how can we be held accountable any more than the guy who plays the villian in some tv show?

 

[Durruck]

I'll break your post into parts, because I think there are quite a few different areas that need to be addressed, and I can't adequately separate them out, otherwise.

So I take it you believe in fate and the like, that life is linear?
The problem I'm facing is that if God knows the future, there must be a 'set' future. Therefore, nothing we do can change that (we are characters in a linear movie). I couldn't help making this post, neither could you, and earlier on, I couldn't help eating an apple instead of an orange, etc etc.
Is that the case, or does it work... differently? Because if thats the case and everything is linear, then we can't really be held accountable for sin and so on.

You're making an illogical jump from God knowing everything to we're living a script. I decided to break it here because the next paragraph just builds upon something that doesn't follow from the given principles of what God is. Anyway, we still have free choice in our decisions. Certainly we're influenced by forces outside ourselves (The Spirit, the people around us, etc), but just because God can see the end doesn't mean that you had to choose to eat the apple or the orange. You could have gone to the store and bought a banana, instead. We are not freed from the repercussions of our choices by just saying we had no choice. There is always a choice.

I mean, we ain't gona go kill the person who acted the villian in some movie because hes just following the script. So such a state cannot exist, or so I don't believe (further reinforced by the reasoning put forth by the numerous posts before) that we are the cast in a great linear movie script of life, but once again, just proving why it cannot exist doesnt prove HOW it can or cannot exist and thats the question here.

You're confusing the lines of truth with fiction in the entertainment industry. Just because an actor plays the part of a murderer does not mean that they actually killed anyone. However, if you kill someone, they really do die. There is a huge difference. Beyond that, this is just a further extension of a illogical jump.

Or maybe God can predict the future as in a like playing an RPG after reading the walkthrough, you know what the various quest dialog options do and in this case use them to your advantage to get the most loot outta every quest. Replace that character with you, the quests with the billions of choices we make every day and the dialog options with the various options avaliable for each choice.

If that's what helps you wrap your head around how much God knows, that's fine. But understand that God wrote the game and doesn't need to read the walk through. From before God even created the earth, he knew that Adam and Eve would sin, that he would have Noah build the Ark, that Moses would strike the stone, that Jesus would die on the cross, that Obama would become the President of the USA in 2008. Before He created the earth, God knew exactly the moment that He will choose to send Jesus back again, the moment that Satan will be bound and cast into the lake of burning sulfer.

Sounds like lots and lots of options but hey he is God he can do anything, even if it means micro-managing at a rate that puts a korean starcraft player to shame.

The intricacy in which God has put together everything here on Earth puts everything that mankind to shame. Astrophysicists have been studying the universe for decades (if not centuries) and still can't predict what will happen as our galaxies interact. God has known it all since He created it.

But then the brick wall in this scenario is that as evidenced many times in the bible, God knows the choices we are GOING to make as well.

Exactly. What really will twist your brain is that God knows what would have happened if you chose to get a banana instead of an orange, too.

From The Matrix (1999):

Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
Neo: What vase?
[Neo turns to look for a vase, and as he does, he knocks over a vase of flowers, which shatters on the floor]
Oracle: That vase.
Neo: I'm sorry...
Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
Neo: How did you know?
Oracle: Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?

See? What if you went and bought a banana instead. For every decision we make, there are countless number of other possibilities that could have happened along the way. Could you have gotten mugged on the way to the store? tripped over the sidewalk and broke your leg? Hit by a bus? Encountered someone that was hungry and you gave them your banana? Would you still have chosen a banana if I hadn't mentioned that a banana was a choice?

Also,

Also, It does say in a few places that we will have positions in heaven and some will be rulers over angels.

Then, how can everyone be happy if there are slaves and servants (besides us all being servants to God of course but thats different)? biblically it is described as a paradise, though I suspect we will be doing a lot more than just singing hymns, eating jewish delicacies

I can't begin to say that I understand the ways of God. Maybe this is the closest Paul could come to understanding what he was seeing in the vision that God gave him.

and watching the world (in all seriousness, this sounds like a joke but isnt: will we be able to play mmorpgs in heaven? Honestly I'd rather not live without gaming and spending an eternity without gaming... since we're all gamers I'd ask here since you can relate).

I've been playing MMOs for over a decade... but the gaming is a way for me to pass time and spend time with friends, other believers. I could give it up in a heartbeat if I had another medium for all the people I want to keep up with. I MMO-hop and still keep up with old friends while making new.

Also, I certainly won't be happy if my loved ones are burning in hell, can't eat with all that guilt/sorrow/anger/mixed feelings and all. A few staunch buddists in the family, quite distant but still family.

I think every believer struggles with this. I have a certain amount of comfort knowing that I will see many of my lost loved ones again in eternity, but, there's a chance that I won't. It hurts to think about it, to be honest. But more on that below.

Maybe my preferred (I don't know if I believe it myself or not actually, its origin was rather shady and catholic-like) interpretation that God's love transcends all is false, but I sure hope not. The least (and most) I can do is hope.

God's mercy and grace can (and does) transcend all. But Jesus, while speaking with the full authority of God (being God...) that He is the way, truth, and the life. No man gets to the Father except through the Son. Period.

Bah, work calls, I can't finish this now.... maybe later I'll finish.

 

[Durruck]

Ok, finishing now.

Jesus says that you have to believe in his diety, in His authority over life and death, that He is God. The Bible also tells us that God is the perfect judge. He alone knows what influences have played in your life, how much you've been told about Jesus. What about babies? What about African tribes that have never been told about Jesus? I don't know. I can't even begin to guess, other than to say that my ways are not God's ways.

Can anyone in the modern world honestly claim they've never heard about Jesus at all? I was aware of Buddha and Allah being the gods of their religions when I was 5. And I was not raised in a home that was deeply religious; certainly if I knew about them, most kids will have at least heard the Name above all names.

Unfortunately, it's topics like that which cause man to create silly non-biblical rules about ages of accountability - trying to comfort each other into believing something that is not in the Bible. God did not say that at 13, you better know.... because what about the MRDD, the Down Syndrome kids? God, and God alone, knows how they will be judged.

Will everyone in my family be there? I'd like to think so, but I highly doubt it:

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

While I'd love to know that everyone in my family, and all of my friends, and my coworkers, and neighbors, and people from my high school..... and...and.... and.... that they'll all be in Heaven with God when I get there... it seems rather unwise to assume such a thing is true. It's unwise to assume everyone from your church (even the people that have been going there forever) will make it. It all depends on their decision to follow Christ.

Does it make it easier knowing now that they may not be there? Yes, and no.

Yes because that means that if they're still alive, it's not too late for me to witness to them and try to be God's hands, feet, and voice to those people.

No, because I know that some will have hardened their hearts, or will put off the decision until it's too late.

Will it make a difference in Heaven? I have no idea. I assume that when our thoughts and motives are purified, our love for the lost will also be purified and yes, we will probably miss them. But that's just speculation.

 

[silverleaf]

Well I have absolutely no idea whats going to happen on judgement day, but there are people (like my church elders) who are qualified to debate this kinda things (and I do not know if I am in fact sinning by thinking/talking like that), most of them follow what 'mainstream' christians think, but theres some people (apparently the pope supports him) in one of the less mainstream (though I wouldnt say obscure) church in europe who believe everyone will be saved. Maybe without all that treasure and stuff, but at least not roastin to death. Can I say they are right? I do not have the slightest idea. However, all I can say is I sure hope they are. But if not, then shouldn't we be focused on saving everyone rather than all the other stuff my church is focusing on, such as being a better christian, fighting the good fight etc etc? Sure when we get there theres maybe just one silver coin left for us, but then at least the most number of people will be saved. I know this idea is radical, and I do not endorse it, but just a thought: innocents (babies, mad pple etc etc) are presumed innocent according to my church, so if we nukewtfpwn the childcare center, are we actually saving souls but damning ourselves in the process? I go to hell (unrepentant murder) but all those kids will be saved. Note: once again this is NOT a threat, just a thought. I'm not crazy enough to do it.

Now back about free will:

Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
Neo: What vase?
[Neo turns to look for a vase, and as he does, he knocks over a vase of flowers, which shatters on the floor]
Oracle: That vase.

But how could Neo not have shattered the vase if the oracle already predicted he would? Thats the question. Is it physically possible for Neo to divert from the linear prediction and not shatter the vase?

 

[Durruck]

but there are people (like my church elders) who are qualified to debate this kinda things

You don't have to be a church elder to be qualified to discuss any topic. You have to have a faith in God, a desire to learn, and a willingness to study, listen, and learn.

but theres some people (apparently the pope supports him) in one of the less mainstream (though I wouldnt say obscure) church in europe who believe everyone will be saved.

Again, I'm not God, I won't begin to pretend that I have the answer, either. However, I would be leery of taking a stand on an issue that does not have Biblical support. I can say that abortion is wrong. I can say adultery is wrong. I can say lying is wrong. The Bible gives support to those statements. To say that everyone is saved, regardless of their beliefs... is contrabiblical. Jesus clearly states that He is the way. You don't get to God except through Jesus. The Pope and the other guy better have some pretty solid proof from the Bible to convince me otherwise.

But if not, then shouldn't we be focused on saving everyone rather than all the other stuff my church is focusing on, such as being a better christian, fighting the good fight etc etc? Sure when we get there theres maybe just one silver coin left for us, but then at least the most number of people will be saved.

Yes, and no. Part of being a better Christian is becoming more versed in what Jesus and God have commanded us to do, and learning to listen to the Spirit to move us in the right way. If I stand on the street corner with a bullhorn, screaming for the world to repent or burn... I would be telling the truth but hurting my chances of opening honest dialogue with someone that needs to hear more. If you're not trying to be better than you used to be, people perceive that you are unchanged since you were saved, and they see no benefit to changing their views. If they see you acting like the rest of the world, you're a hypocrite. Jesus came (in part) to challenge the religious leaders of the day that were spiritually dead, but still standing in the synagogue telling people how bad they were. I'd hate for Jesus to come back and find me spiritually dead but calling out other people for their sins. Remove the plank in your own eye, so to speak.

so if we nukewtfpwn the childcare center, are we actually saving souls but damning ourselves in the process? I go to hell (unrepentant murder) but all those kids will be saved.

No. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. We are not the judge. We are not the jury. We are certainly not the executioner. Who's to say that the children murdered by your theory wouldn't grow up to be the next CS Lewis, that bring thousands to Christ through writings. Or the next Joel Osteen who preaches to tens of thousands of believers every week? Or the next big singer that makes it in the mainstream arena while singing about the love that God has for us, spreading a message of Hope to the masses?

But how could Neo not have shattered the vase if the oracle already predicted he would? Thats the question. Is it physically possible for Neo to divert from the linear prediction and not shatter the vase?

She did not predict that he would shatter the vase, she had foreknowledge. I predict that you and I will continue this thread. But we still have a choice. Either one of us could choose to stop the discussion and I would just be wrong. The Matrix movies are supposed to have heavy religious undertones. The Oracle is supposed to be a God-like individual in Omniscience only. She has the power of infinite knowledge, but not the complete God-abilities of Omnipotence (power) or Omnipresence (being everywhere at once).

She is the one that tells Trinity (Neo's counterpart) about what will happen to the person she falls in love with. She tells Neo that he is the one that has to stop the machines (which exist outside of the world that she supposedly lives in, further still displaying her Omniscience).

This is not just mere guesses (like mine about us continuing this discussion), fortune telling, or even just predicting random specific events of the future. Like the Oracle, God knows exactly what we will do as if he is watching a replay on TV. A lot of the MMO/FPS games show a "kill-cam" - the events and moments leading up to your death in the game. It shows you exactly where you were, what you were doing, and how you ended up with your head getting gibbed off. God has that kind of knowledge, but he knew what would happen before you ever spawned.

So could Neo have not broken the vase? No. But the Oracle knew that he would break it only after she mentioned it to him.... because she had already seen it happen. But I think that's different than your idea that we are actors in a scripted play that we cannot break out of. We still choose our individual actions, just like Neo had the choice to stand perfectly still, but chose to swing his arm as he turned around (and subsequently knocking down the vase)

 

[silverleaf]

No. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. We are not the judge. We are not the jury. We are certainly not the executioner. Who's to say that the children murdered by your theory wouldn't grow up to be the next CS Lewis, that bring thousands to Christ through writings. Or the next Joel Osteen who preaches to tens of thousands of believers every week? Or the next big singer that makes it in the mainstream arena while singing about the love that God has for us, spreading a message of Hope to the masses?

OK, so what if my local Anonymous cell went nuts and decided to blow up the scientology childcare centre. Would we have saved them but sacrificed our own soul in the process? I'm ashamed to say this, but the thought of burning in hell ain't good and even if it worked I'm unwilling to sacrifice my soul for all the kids in the world. Hooray, no terrorist for me. But just wondering when war/disaster strike is it actually a good thing? Like when the nuke dropped on pagan Japan, did some kids who were obviously not going to be christian get saved?

But I think that's different than your idea that we are actors in a scripted play that we cannot break out of. We still choose our individual actions, just like Neo had the choice to stand perfectly still, but chose to swing his arm as he turned around (and subsequently knocking down the vase)

But what I still cannot understand is how he could choose NOT to swing his arm if it was already predicted he would. Just like how I could not post this thread if God already sees me posting this in some sort of kill-cam that runs before I was even born. Guess thats one of the things I'll ask Him when I get up there (hopefully).

 

[Durruck]

OK, so what if my local Anonymous cell went nuts and decided to blow up the scientology childcare centre. Would we have saved them but sacrificed our own soul in the process? I'm ashamed to say this, but the thought of burning in hell ain't good and even if it worked I'm unwilling to sacrifice my soul for all the kids in the world. Hooray, no terrorist for me. But just wondering when war/disaster strike is it actually a good thing? Like when the nuke dropped on pagan Japan, did some kids who were obviously not going to be christian get saved?

That's assuming that you cannot become a Christian if you didn't come from a Christian family. You might as well nuke 95% of the world and save everyone some heartache. Paul (the guy that was divinely inspired to write a huge chunk of the New Testament) was killing a bunch of Christians because he thought it was the right thing to do. Then God blinded him, converted him to Christianity (Jesus had already ascended by the time this all happened). Paul immediately stopped killing at all.

If the model for us was to kill a bunch of babies because they'd be saved from becoming something evil, I would guess that Jesus would have started the tradition. But since Jesus did NOT kill children, I'd assume that we shouldn't either.

But what I still cannot understand is how he could choose NOT to swing his arm if it was already predicted he would. Just like how I could not post this thread if God already sees me posting this in some sort of kill-cam that runs before I was even born. Guess thats one of the things I'll ask Him when I get up there (hopefully).

Foreknowledge is separate from lack of free will. God knew that I would someday choose to follow Him, but let me make a lot of mistakes and do a lot of bad things on the way. I still had to make the choice to give up everything to follow Him. Just because God knew I would do it didn't take away from my choice.

I'm going to assume that there are just some things that we cannot understand in our simple, human brains. Maybe in Heaven we'll be able to understand it.... or have enough time in eternity for God to finally explain the complexity of it all in a form we can understand.

 

[Sassamo]

"But what I still cannot understand is how he could choose NOT to swing his arm if it was already predicted he would."

Simply put, he could, but if he chose not to, the oracle would have seen him not swinging his arm instead of swinging it. I think part of the problem though is circular definition. If we know the outcome of something, can we do anything to change it. Sure, but then the knowledge that we had before we chose to do something differently would 'then' be different, and we would have made different choices, producing different foreknowledge. Where does it all stop! I think that's why God reveals prophecy in the way he does, so that it doesn't have a direct impact on our actions, and after the event occurs, we then see, "Oh, that's what he meant!"

The way I see it, time is just a fourth dimension, in which God has the ability to freely move through it like walking down a hallway, looking 'whenever' he wants. I've developed an analogy in my mind to picture this, not saying it's accurate, or divine revelation, but it's the way I see it:

Suppose you existed in a one dimensional world, and as your trying to get to your destination moving along that line, you encounter a dot. How do you get to where you're going? You would need to move into the second dimension and move along the 'y' axis to a point in which that dot(now a line) no longer exists. As you do so, you realize your actually within a circle, so to get out, you move along the third dimension 'z' to a point in which that circle(now a cylinder) doesn't exist. Again, you find yourself contained, now within a sphere. How do you escape? Move along the 't(?)' axis to a point in which the sphere no longer exists!

Hopefully that was somewhat usefull and not confusing things worse, if so, forget I said it.

 

[silverleaf]

I like the last answer, flawed like all human attempts at divine reasoning but think that sums it up really, and I still don't know the mechanic behind it but guess I'll have to live with that.
So, if I get it right, you're saying that God knows I'm gona eat an apple and leave the orange, but I could just as easily have eaten the orange (no outside force or script) and then he would have known beforehand that I would have eaten the orange...? Its non linear but thats still equally mind boggling. Guess its the only explanation we'll ever get tho. Thanks.

 

[CrossStar]

I like to describe this as: God created time so time is all laid out before Him. He knows what will happen & what choices will be made from the beginning to the end. For David to say that to God a day is as a thousand years & a thousand years as a day, just futher indicates God exists outside time & sees it all as such (though He exists & works inside it by choice.) God doesn't just see possibility but rather every actual choice we make. We have the choice to accept His direction & being ouside of time, He already knows what choice we will make. I find it amazing how God chooses to stoop to work & operate within our confinements...

 

[silverleaf]

I'm actually not sure if God created time. It isnt something that is... created ye know... but then again, I don't know.
'In the beginning God existed' doesn't equate to 'time is a thing'.
Its a unit of measurement. Creating a kilometer doesn't make sense. Or maybe it just doesn't make sense to my puny human brain. Sure, God could have inspired the creation of the defination of a kilometer but its a measurement, not a thing.

 

[RyanB]

Man, I haven't read this thread in a few days. Hot topic here! There's a lot of things to spin off to from "free will", haha.

(I am not trying to be a know-it-all here, I don't... and I do not mean to come across harsh, these are just truths taught in the Bible that I am presenting. I don't know how to say them other then directly.)

First, I'd like to say I think the original intent of the thread has been satisfied, in that we've presented differing viewpoints to help provide some input for silverleaf. Ultimately...the answer to this question doesn't matter in the scheme of things. One's life and decisions shouldn't be affected by it, and understanding the inner-workings of free will won't affect our entrance into heaven.

I would just caution to be very, very careful when presenting beliefs as "absolute truth". We all know that God's word is completely, absolutely true...but we have to bear in mind that our beliefs are simply our interpretation of that absolute truth. Even something as simple as John 3:16 begs the question, "what does it mean to believe in Christ?". Does taking 30 seconds out of an otherwise sinful life to recite a non-heartfelt "sinners prayer" do it? We can't understand anything that is not revealed to us. It's often very difficult to tell the difference between a belief that is spirit-fed and self-realized. Most of the reason of why I believe free will must exist is just logic...certainly nothing I'd declare absolute proof. There are many verses about making choices, but I would never say it's 100% proof for free will. We just have to keep an open mind...because when we close our minds...we don't hear the spirit of truth.

PS: Please don't take the above post as me implying you're close-minded or anything like that...just trying to keep open minds

 

[RyanB]

Also, I certainly won't be happy if my loved ones are burning in hell, can't eat with all that guilt/sorrow/anger/mixed feelings and all. A few staunch buddists in the family, quite distant but still family. Maybe my preferred (I don't know if I believe it myself or not actually, its origin was rather shady and catholic-like) interpretation that God's love transcends all is false, but I sure hope not. The least (and most) I can do is hope.

Somehow I had a feeling that Hell would come up. I would definitely recommend starting a new topic if we want to discuss this any further, because while most people believe that the lake of fire is an eternal place of torment, there are other views as well. Reading this, though, I would just encourage you to continue seeking the truth (as you have on here) and be wary of the temptation to discard some belief because we don't like it. We are all biased, and bias is an enormous enemy of truth-seeking.

 

[RyanB]

Oracle: Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?

Actually, you're all wrong. There IS no vase. Next question!

You don't have to be a church elder to be qualified to discuss any topic. You have to have a faith in God, a desire to learn, and a willingness to study, listen, and learn.

Testify! This is the truth. I'll add to that - we all need to be very careful listening to elders/deacons/etc. Don't get me wrong, other (especially "older") Christians are obviously a great source of wisdom and understanding. The problem I see all too often is people thinking "hey, this person is 'more qualified' than me, so they must be right." What ends up happening is we end up following our elders/deacons/pastors/denomination-founders instead of Christ, which is a sure-fire way to get yourself in trouble, haha.

I'm actually not sure if God created time. It isnt something that is... created ye know... but then again, I don't know.
'In the beginning God existed' doesn't equate to 'time is a thing'.
Its a unit of measurement. Creating a kilometer doesn't make sense. Or maybe it just doesn't make sense to my puny human brain. Sure, God could have inspired the creation of the defination of a kilometer but its a measurement, not a thing.

I agree with this completely. I think that time is a measurement. Furthermore, time is not a measurement in and of itself, but a measurement in relation to others. Example: It takes me 60 seconds to run from point A to point B. However, a second is simply the amount of "time" it takes for a cog to move 6 degrees on a watch, which is related to the amount of time it takes the earth to spin in a circle. It's all relative with no absolute measure.

So, I don't believe in time, personally, but that certainly doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I guess if I had to give my analogy of how I saw omniscience without intervention, my flawed attempt would describe it something like this:
Think about something competitive you are very good at. When you get very good at things...you can often tell what others will be doing before they do it with good probability. It's like a mind game. I see God doing this...to infinite proportions with complete accuracy. He's just able to anticipate on a scale that is completely mind-boggling. In fact, He probably had a good chuckle when He saw me write this lame explanation.