Eliminating one's reproductive rights.

[Wolfeman]

I think you should be careful about how you word this. There are many couples who are unable to have children through no fault of their own. For some reason, known only to God, He has decided to withhold natural childbirth from them. By the same token, not every reason that people use to decide not to have children is selfish.

Reading back I could see the mistake I made. Children are a blessing from God. He chooses who He will bestow this blessing upon and when. Having or not having children is not an indication of worth. My comment was merely that there is never a reason for us to tell God, we don't want that blessing.

However, I still stand by my original comment. In a world of perfect faith, it is always selfish to decide not to have children if God gives you the ability. I'm open to suggestions why it's not but I'm pretty sure they can all be traced back to selfish reasons. (medical problems is a difficult area because God gave us doctors to help us with our health and brains to make good decisions but also faith to trust that ALL things work for good to them that love the Lord)

It is however permissible if people choose to not have children for a multitude of reasons, but that's not the question.

Again, my personal opinion and belief has been stated above. I'm open to discussion about it but when we thwart God's gifts we always pass up blessings. However, I think every Christian (who believes life begins at conception) should agree upon the means used to prevent those children. Some are clearly against God because they destroy a fertilized egg by preventing it from implanting and growing further.

 

[Abba San]

However, I still stand by my original comment. In a world of perfect faith, it is always selfish to decide not to have children if God gives you the ability...

Again, my personal opinion and belief has been stated above. I'm open to discussion about it but when we thwart God's gifts we always pass up blessings.

Well, Wolfeman, I agree that this is your personal opinion and belief - but I don't want this to slide by as what God has to say about having children. If I remember correctly, I think you come from a Catholic background. Maybe some of your personal beliefs come from that. I don't know.

I agree with my Catholic brothers and sisters about the sanctity of life, abortion is absolutely wrong, and most of what they hold to concerning contraception. When we were trying to get pregnant we took a Catholic church sponsored class of fertility and cycles. Half the people in the class were trying to get pregnant naturally, and half the class were trying to keep from getting pregnant naturally, without contraception. Same class - different goals - all trying to please God with our lives - and most finding God's blessing.

The Psalmist does say that children are a gift from God. God also says that he knows every child, even in the womb. Every life is precious no matter where on the life timeline. When God gives a child it is a gift filled with blessings.

However, that does not mean that children are God's only blessing or best blessing. Choosing one blessing over another blessing need not be a selfish decision, nor is a decision to not have children necessarily a selfish decision. To choose one of God's gifts over another is certainly NOT "thwarting God's gifts." Paul says, "I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that." 1 Corinthians 7:7 (NIV) He is not talking spiritual gifts here, but the gift of marriage and the gift of celibacy.

Paul is pretty clear that he thinks (and the Bible says) it is better NOT to get married. Further on in 1 Corinthians 7, he states that it is better not to get married so you can be wholly devoted to the Lord. He also says that if you get married you have not sinned. If you forgo marriage, you typically forgo having children. You have not sinned and it is not selfish. You just want to be free to serve the Lord more fully. Each decision has its own set of blessings,

A married couple may decide they want to serve the Lord on the mission field. They may decide they can serve more fully by not having children. They have not sinned. They are not being selfish. They may miss one set of blessings and gain many more.

God gave us free will - thank God for that. We get to choose how we will build our life - hopefully with a notion to pleasing Him with our life. If someone doesn't choose the same path as I do (wife - kids - ministry) they may miss some of my blessings but they have a whole host of other blessings I don't have. We are free to choose.

That's enough for now...

 

[Wolfeman]

Well, Wolfeman, I agree that this is your personal opinion and belief - but I don't want this to slide by as what God has to say about having children. If I remember correctly, I think you come from a Catholic background. Maybe some of your personal beliefs come from that. I don't know.

I agree with my Catholic brothers and sisters about the sanctity of life, abortion is absolutely wrong, and most of what they hold to concerning contraception. When we were trying to get pregnant we took a Catholic church sponsored class of fertility and cycles. Half the people in the class were trying to get pregnant naturally, and half the class were trying to keep from getting pregnant naturally, without contraception. Same class - different goals - all trying to please God with our lives - and most finding God's blessing.

I am Independent Baptist. But I do agree with (older) Catholic teachings on birth control and fertility. Use your best judgement and timing and leave the rest up to Him. I am however open if you would like to show me where my opinion is different from what God has to say on the subject.

However, that does not mean that children are God's only blessing or best blessing. Choosing one blessing over another blessing need not be a selfish decision, nor is a decision to not have children necessarily a selfish decision. To choose one of God's gifts over another is certainly NOT "thwarting God's gifts." Paul says, "I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that." 1 Corinthians 7:7 (NIV) He is not talking spiritual gifts here, but the gift of marriage and the gift of celibacy.

Paul is pretty clear that he thinks (and the Bible says) it is better NOT to get married. Further on in 1 Corinthians 7, he states that it is better not to get married so you can be wholly devoted to the Lord. He also says that if you get married you have not sinned. If you forgo marriage, you typically forgo having children. You have not sinned and it is not selfish. You just want to be free to serve the Lord more fully. Each decision has its own set of blessings,

I will agree with this sentiment. However, you are comparing apples to oranges. Paul does indeed say it is better to be celibate than married but 1 Cor 7:1-7 shows it is ok to be married and verse 6 tells us that he speaks this by permission and not commandment. (It's in the Bible so it's God's word to me but that might make a difference to some). Of course 1 Cor 7:5 kind of thows a wrench into the whole timing to avoid pregnancy scenario but not much.

And as long as were doing apples to oranges, we see at least one example in the Bible where God punishes someone for spilling their seed. Avoiding what God wanted did not bring a blessing.

A married couple may decide they want to serve the Lord on the mission field. They may decide they can serve more fully by not having children. They have not sinned. They are not being selfish. They may miss one set of blessings and gain many more.

Not sure how they could more fully serve Him by not having children. You never know what doors the children may open for them. If God wants them to have children and they take steps to not have them, they are thwarting God's gift because they feel it would be better not to have them. They made the decision instead of letting God make it for them.

God gave us free will - thank God for that. We get to choose how we will build our life - hopefully with a notion to pleasing Him with our life. If someone doesn't choose the same path as I do (wife - kids - ministry) they may miss some of my blessings but they have a whole host of other blessings I don't have. We are free to choose.

That's enough for now...

We are free to choose. We are sinful flesh living in a fallen world. We will never make God's will for us perfectly for us. God is of black and white. It's sin or it isn't. We are in obedience or we are not. We however live in a world of grey. Is it wrong to steal? Yes. Is it wrong to steal food to feed your hungry children? Most would have a hard time giving that a definite yes. And so it goes in this world. Satan is a master of lies and the father of them. He is a master of making black and white grey. We have to be careful not to allow him to make the simplistic difficult.

My position is overly simplistic. If we are married, we need to leave weather we have children or not up to God. But rarely is life perfectly simplistic.

 

[Patriot]

And as long as were doing apples to oranges, we see at least one example in the Bible where God punishes someone for spilling their seed. Avoiding what God wanted did not bring a blessing.

This example is far from a couple prayerfully deciding to not have children. It is one individual acting selfishly and essentially denying his brother's wife the protection and provision that children provided in that time.

Not sure how they could more fully serve Him by not having children.

There are many events that end up being missed because of children. I've missed two weeks of church and Bible study because my children have been sick. That is just one example. There are countless others. When you have children, you have to think about them when considering any ministry opportunity. As you say, doors may open but often doors are closed as well.

If God wants them to have children and they take steps to not have them, they are thwarting God's gift because they feel it would be better not to have them. They made the decision instead of letting God make it for them.

Ah, but who am I to declare that God wants you or someone else to have children? Or that you or someone else made a decision without God's blessing? I cannot see into someone's heart. I am not the mediator between God and that person.

My position is overly simplistic. If we are married, we need to leave weather we have children or not up to God. But rarely is life perfectly simplistic.

Then you would be against even natural forms of birth control? If not, then why is natural birth control okay and other forms of non-abortive birth control sinful?

 

[Wolfeman]

And as long as were doing apples to oranges, we see at least one example in the Bible where God punishes someone for spilling their seed. Avoiding what God wanted did not bring a blessing.

This example is far from a couple prayerfully deciding to not have children. It is one individual acting selfishly and essentially denying his brother's wife the protection and provision that children provided in that time.

I did say comparing apples to oranges. Can you find an example in the Bible where God blessed people who decided NOT to have children?

Not sure how they could more fully serve Him by not having children.

There are many events that end up being missed because of children. I've missed two weeks of church and Bible study because my children have been sick. That is just one example. There are countless others. When you have children, you have to think about them when considering any ministry opportunity. As you say, doors may open but often doors are closed as well.

You missed two weeks of church and Bible study. Did you children grow a bit more in the Lord seeing your dedication to them? Is is possible your children will make a difference in someone elses life because of your dedication to them?

It is impossible to know what doors are opened or closed but if God gave you those children it's hard to believe he chose the lesser path for you.

If God wants them to have children and they take steps to not have them, they are thwarting God's gift because they feel it would be better not to have them. They made the decision instead of letting God make it for them.

Ah, but who am I to declare that God wants you or someone else to have children? Or that you or someone else made a decision without God's blessing? I cannot see into someone's heart. I am not the mediator between God and that person.

No one can give life but God. God doesn't make mistakes so if you leave the door open and God gives children it's not a mistake. It is however possible to not open the door when He knocks.

My position is overly simplistic. If we are married, we need to leave weather we have children or not up to God. But rarely is life perfectly simplistic.

Then you would be against even natural forms of birth control? If not, then why is natural birth control okay and other forms of non-abortive birth control sinful?

In a perfect world any form of birth control would be thwarting God's will. Even in the event of life threatening illness or danger to the mother. It would be a demonstration of a lack of faith in God's provision and ability. But as I said, we don't live in a perfect world so prevention is a much preferable option to murder.




If anyone takes issues with anything I've said I beg your forgiveness. It is very easy to make broad statements in a forum setting. It is very easy to simplify things. God is perfect and simple. However, life in a fallen world in our sinful flesh is hardly ever perfect and simple. My simplistic statements are imperfect opinions based upon perfect faith.

 

[rev. Jim]

I understand that everything has a reason behind it and a purpose in His plan and that it is perfect... despite how it may appear right now. However... aren't all things in His plan, things like contraceptives?

I do know more details but I will not divulge them due to privacy.

I wasn't asking for more details, I was just stating that without us knowing more details, we are limited in what we can answer without this thread turning into an unprofitable mess of a debate


However, you have stated one thing that is important... you said this person is unsaved, and this means that they do not have the blessed assurance of our inheritance... namely "all things working together for good".

This is important because it now becomes that this person would basically be trying to raise a child in the conditions you stated above by ther own self-effort, which will make a big difference.

It is a possibiity as I have stated above in a previous post that this person may be longing for God in a subconcious way without even realizing it. If so, as their friend, you may be in a unique position to minister to them in this regard.

I am curious why this person refuses to seek church counsel, but I understand your not wantig to make it a matter of public record.

 

[Wolfeman]

Forgot my answers basically belong in their own thread. Sorry for the hijack.

Everything we do out side God's will is sin. Sin always carries penalty. We see numerous examples in the Bible where children suffer because of their parents' (or parent's) sin. The Bible even tells us the penalties for sins of a father shall be carried down to the 4th generation. A few times we are even told it would be better for that person if they were never born. However, this must all be looked at in context.

Free will to make our own choices is one of the gifts God gave us. But we must be careful when judging others to make sure we first are in a position to judge (we have the beam out of our eye so we can help the person with the mote in theirs) and we are doing it the way Christ has told us to (let him who is without sin cast the first stone).

Do I think a crack head mother who keeps having kids so she can get a larger welfare check should be sterilized so she can't keep bringing kids into a bad situation? Yup!
Does God? Nope. We see too often where God uses bad situations to bring good results. We can't see tomorrow or fully know God's mind to be able to say a child sold into the slavery of poverty and neglect won't rise up to save a nation.

 

[Patriot]

Do I think a crack head mother who keeps having kids so she can get a larger welfare check should be sterilized so she can't keep bringing kids into a bad situation? Yup!
Does God? Nope. We see too often where God uses bad situations to bring good results. We can't see tomorrow or fully know God's mind to be able to say a child sold into the slavery of poverty and neglect won't rise up to save a nation.

How are you determining that God doesn't want that woman sterilized? I'm having trouble finding any scripture on this issue at all. And the verses about eunuchs merely recognizes that they exist, but doesn't mention good, bad, or other.

I would reply to your other post, but as you said, it was a hijack (by myself as well) and as much as I might long to respond I have no desire to sidetrack the original topic.

 

[rev. Jim]

Okay, here are the answers found in scripture to the original topic...


God's command: "Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 9:7)

Notice that fruitfulness comes before the multiplying!

We are to be fruitful first, this means that we are to have a right relationship with the LORD and having His Spirit active and flowing in our lives; then we are in a right place to multiply.

Speaking purely from a spiritual perspective, an unbeliever can not teach children the right ways of God because the unbeliever does not know God.

This answers the question of "when is it right to have children?"

Now about contraceptives...

The Bible does not accept nor condemn birth control, because honestly such devices and methods do not make a difference to God. Ultimatley if God wants you to conceive, you will, regardles of how you try to stop it. The reverse is also true.

Now here is the key: What God does care about is motivation behind such things. If a person is using birth control as a kind of "ace up their sleeve" to gratify their own lustful passions without the "consequence of children" then that is most definatley wrong. And it turns the blessing of children into a punishment in the mind of the person, corrupting a gift from God for the sake of lust.

 

[Patriot]

Okay, here are the answers found in scripture to the original topic...


God's command: "Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 9:7)

But does that command apply universally? Obviously, it doesn't apply to single folks. And it cannot apply to couples from whom God withholds children. The question is, does it apply to all couples* capable of bearing children?

*Assume we are speaking of God-fearing Christians.

 

[rev. Jim]

We are all single at birth.
Yet for those who choose to remain single, there are other ways in which to multiply. Such as teaching and ministering for Christ, which we all are called to do anyway.

 

[Patriot]

We are all single at birth.
Yet for those who choose to remain single, there are other ways in which to multiply. Such as teaching and ministering for Christ, which we all are called to do anyway.

While I agree that we should be teaching and ministering, I disagree that the passage in Genesis is referring to such activities. I believe the command given was to Adam and Eve and should not be universally applied (as noted by the exceptions in my previous post).

 

[rev. Jim]

It was given to Noah, and to his decendants in Genesis 9 which I referenced above. In any case my job is not to argue or convince anyone.

 

[Wolfeman]

How are you determining that God doesn't want that woman sterilized? I'm having trouble finding any scripture on this issue at all. And the verses about eunuchs merely recognizes that they exist, but doesn't mention good, bad, or other.

Because that woman was my mother. She had 6 children (including one that was still born) before I was born. I did not get saved until I was 34. My mother got saved about 3 years after that. She is now in Heaven. I am now a preacher with a wife and a beautiful daughter who I'm sure God has wonderful plans for. There is a lot more to this story but suffice to say, I don't think sterilization was in God's plan. Mercy was.

I would reply to your other post, but as you said, it was a hijack (by myself as well) and as much as I might long to respond I have no desire to sidetrack the original topic.

As long as we both keep it civil I'd love to continue the debate. Feel free to open a new thread.

But does that command apply universally? Obviously, it doesn't apply to single folks. And it cannot apply to couples from whom God withholds children. The question is, does it apply to all couples* capable of bearing children?

*Assume we are speaking of God-fearing Christians.

My Bible says be fruitful and multiply. There is no 'unless' mentioned. So I'm assuming it means all couples capable of bearing children.

Okay, here are the answers found in scripture to the original topic...


God's command: "Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 9:7)

Notice that fruitfulness comes before the multiplying!

We are to be fruitful first, this means that we are to have a right relationship with the LORD and having His Spirit active and flowing in our lives; then we are in a right place to multiply.

Speaking purely from a spiritual perspective, an unbeliever can not teach children the right ways of God because the unbeliever does not know God.

This answers the question of "when is it right to have children?"

The Bible also tells us to not be unequally yoked. So the Bible order of things is Salvation, a right marriage then children (when God gives them, not when you want them, are ready for them, can afford them, when you finish school (you should finish school before marriage anyway) when you have saved enough money, when you finish whatever it is you decided is more important)

Now about contraceptives...

The Bible does not accept nor condemn birth control, because honestly such devices and methods do not make a difference to God. Ultimatley if God wants you to conceive, you will, regardles of how you try to stop it. The reverse is also true.

Yes and no (my mother conceived one after having her tubes tied and once after having her uterus removed because of the previous pregnancy). God can do anything He wants but because of free will, He will also allow us to make dumb or sinful decisions that effect ours and others lives.

Now here is the key: What God does care about is motivation behind such things. If a person is using birth control as a kind of "ace up their sleeve" to gratify their own lustful passions without the "consequence of children" then that is most definatley wrong. And it turns the blessing of children into a punishment in the mind of the person, corrupting a gift from God for the sake of lust.

For the sake of lust or conviences or finances or situation or health (I still have a hard time with this but...)

 

[Patriot]

I created a new thread.

 

[Abba San]

Patriot has started a new thread for the theological discussion of singleness - having children - and what not. This thread should focus on the original question (amplified a bit into the thread)

Not really. Just, what does God say about severely limiting one's reproductive rights.

Edit: I'm not trying to troll either, but this involves someone I know who constantly makes poor decisions regarding the topic at hand (e.g. attempting to bring/bringing a baby into the world when the living conditions would be more suited for a 3rd world nation, limited food, no planning for the future, an extreme lack of patience for children, a history of violence, etc).

 

[Odale]

Thank you all for the answers thus far. I know this question is weird and not what you would normally find in this forum.

The reason I asked is because this child will be born into an environment that will not likely change (for more on the environment, see one of my posts on the first page).

Thanks for the responses.