Does it matter what is said here?

[Genesis1315]

Does what I say here matter, yes. Do the other posts here matter, yes. Just because one may follow this religion or that or no religion at all does not make his post less valuable.

With that being said, I think that are some challenges on this forum

1. Attitudes. Although I am relatively new here, it seems like over the past week there have been more sarcastic posts. Personal attacks (although this may be to strong of a word, it does convey the feeling) seem to on the rise as well.

2. Intimidating. I agree with Mr. Bill in regards to this forum being dominated by non-Christians. The conversations quickly become on sided and it is hard to defend Christianity from a couple different sides at onces and give justice to all the questions that are posted in response to one post. Posts that grow 5 or more pages in less than 24 hours are impossible to keep up with for those who cannot check the boards frequently.

3. Support. The few Christians on the board do not support one another. Speaking only for myself, I should help my fellow believers defend their faith. Should there be a need for correction, it is something that should be done privately.

Above and beyond anything else, we should respect each other as people. We have different ways to convey our thoughts-granted, but it is those differences that should make these conversations enlightening.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 13 2004,7:02)]the same science you look at to disprove God, i see as proving Him. the same logical out pourings you claim to use i claim to use also, just i come to a different conclusion. if someone could prove beyond a doubt like is stated for God, then i might recant, but neither can be done.

Let's be clear about this.

I do not use science to disprove God.

I use the scientific method to PROVE God exists.

However, I have not seen any evidence or reason to warrant the existence of God.

So I ask you these four questions.

How did you use science to prove God?

What reason do you have for believing in God?

How have you proved His existence?

How did logic lead you to God?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Genesis1315 @ Oct. 13 2004,9:13)]Does what I say here matter, yes. Do the other posts here matter, yes. Just because one may follow this religion or that or no religion at all does not make his post less valuable.

With that being said, I think that are some challenges on this forum

1. Attitudes. Although I am relatively new here, it seems like over the past week there have been more sarcastic posts. Personal attacks (although this may be to strong of a word, it does convey the feeling) seem to on the rise as well.

2. Intimidating. I agree with Mr. Bill in regards to this forum being dominated by non-Christians. The conversations quickly become on sided and it is hard to defend Christianity from a couple different sides at onces and give justice to all the questions that are posted in response to one post. Posts that grow 5 or more pages in less than 24 hours are impossible to keep up with for those who cannot check the boards frequently.

3. Support. The few Christians on the board do not support one another. Speaking only for myself, I should help my fellow believers defend their faith. Should there be a need for correction, it is something that should be done privately.

Above and beyond anything else, we should respect each other as people. We have different ways to convey our thoughts-granted, but it is those differences that should make these conversations enlightening.

Quote[/b] ]Above and beyond anything else, we should respect each other as people. We have different ways to convey our thoughts-granted, but it is those differences that should make these conversations enlightening.

Agreed!

 

[Genesis1315]

Dark Virtue - Might this be a good topic for a separate thread?

If a am wrong, sorry.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Probably

I'll leave that up to LoJ, since it's his thread.

It does fit with the reasoning behind the thread though.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Anayo @ Oct. 13 2004,6:56)]

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

I'll see your bible verse and raise you one:


2 Thessalonians 2

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[LionOfJudah]

How did i use science?

Natural sciences such as Physics and Chemistry display to much order, most physisists i know agree that there had to be some sort of intelligent ordering to the physical universe( grant it most are secular college prof and a few uncles of mine). Also Biology and my extensive study into anatomony for me proves too complex to have life from non-life and for many of the evolutionary ideas to be accepted, it is either believe in naturalism, or believe in an intelligent creator. for me i choose the creator.

The reasons i have to believe in God are like i stated above, i have seen all the scienctific studies i have done and continue to do, both in physical and mental sciences for this world to be too complex for sciences to explain, no matter how much time or chance are given. as far as proving an existances that is the same as me asking you to disprove it and prove it as a fact, we can use our own presuppassiutions and interpurt the data differently. you may choose to believe He doesnt exist while i choose to use the same data and show how it points to a creator.

Logically, if there is no creator and we are just random chance then no matter what i do it really doesnt matter, i might as well do whatever i want while i am on this rock. pretty negitive out look for me, i would rather have belief that this world has a purpose and that man inhertantly is not evil.

I know i have stated this before but if there is no creator then there is no absolutes (which is wierd seeing how that is an absolute) morally, so i can choose to kill you, and there SHOULD be no real reprecutions for my actions. if you look at most animals when one kills one of its own kind the others dont usually kill it or send it out, they just accept it and continue on.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]How did i use science?

Natural sciences such as Physics and Chemistry display to much order, most physisists i know agree that there had to be some sort of intelligent ordering to the physical universe( grant it most are secular college prof and a few uncles of mine). Also Biology and my extensive study into anatomony for me proves too complex to have life from non-life and for many of the evolutionary ideas to be accepted, it is either believe in naturalism, or believe in an intelligent creator. for me i choose the creator.

Most physicists that YOU know. What about the majority of physicists PERIOD? Aren't the majority of scientists nontheists? You said that for you, it came down to naturalism or an intelligent creator. What facts/evidence led you to one over the other?

Quote[/b] ]The reasons i have to believe in God are like i stated above, i have seen all the scienctific studies i have done and continue to do, both in physical and mental sciences for this world to be too complex for sciences to explain, no matter how much time or chance are given. as far as proving an existances that is the same as me asking you to disprove it and prove it as a fact, we can use our own presuppassiutions and interpurt the data differently. you may choose to believe He doesnt exist while i choose to use the same data and show how it points to a creator.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous for you to say that science will never be able to answer a certain question? How do you KNOW that it can't? Science is a test of patience. It may not answer a question in the here and now, but one day it MIGHT. Science isn't afraid to say I DON'T KNOW. I am still unaware of any data/proof/evidence that points to a creator. If there was, wouldn't that be the greatest revelation of all time?

Quote[/b] ]Logically, if there is no creator and we are just random chance then no matter what i do it really doesnt matter, i might as well do whatever i want while i am on this rock. pretty negitive out look for me, i would rather have belief that this world has a purpose and that man inhertantly is not evil.

Resorting to Pascal's Wager? If you honestly used logic to examine Pascal's Wager, you would see that it it highly flawed. About man being inherantly evil...that would be a THEISTIC notion, not a NONTHEISTIC notion. Atheists believe that man is inherantly GOOD.

Quote[/b] ]I know i have stated this before but if there is no creator then there is no absolutes (which is wierd seeing how that is an absolute) morally, so i can choose to kill you, and there SHOULD be no real reprecutions for my actions. if you look at most animals when one kills one of its own kind the others dont usually kill it or send it out, they just accept it and continue on.

Now there is an error in your logic. If you take God out of the picture, morals do not vanish. Morals can, and do, exist outside the realm of religion. Check out our thread on this very issue, most of the highlights are covered in it. I'm sorry, but this last point is logically incorrect.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I'm sorry to hold your feet to the fire, but I would like clarification on a point.

Would you be willing to stop believing in God if were not logical and reasonable to do so?

I ask for clarification because you answered both no and then maybe.

It has been my experience that the majority of theists will believe what they believe no matter what. No amount of evidence or proof will alter their vision. YET, they expect nontheists to check their reasoning at the door and believe in the unexplainable and unproveable. How is that fair?

 

[LionOfJudah]

where do non-thiests get their morallity from. that would be the better question.

 

[Dark Virtue]

As I have stated, there is a whole thread on this which has been discussed at some length.

I'll give you the highlights though:

Morality isn't a fixed function. It is fluid, it changes and evolves along with society. Society is the author of morality. Look at different societies around the world, they are all different, thus their moralities are different. Morality begins with a single individual and grows outward following the "golden rule" principle. A principle, I might add, that is not necessarily Christian or religious in origin. The "golden rule" is the foundation upon which society builds its morality.

I hope that is sufficient. If not, take a look at the morality thread. It should be able to answer any question you might have.

 

[LionOfJudah]

i have read most of the thread, and all societies and even the "golden" rule have been influenced by one religion or another, i want to know where morallity comes from through a pure non-theist view.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hmm, I may not be making myself clear.

The simple answer is this, "moral values derive their source from human experience".

Since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, this life, the here and now is incredibly precious. Ethical and moral behavior does NOT have to be based on an absolute.

Moral and ethical systems are based on beliefs such as the following:

Systems of morality and ethics can be developed through mutual agreement much like we develop laws and social customs
They can be based upon common needs that humans have for survival, security, personal growth and love

Humans are social animals who can make the greatest achievements through mutual cooperation

People will willingly follow humanistic codes because they are effective; reasonable; lead to self esteem; are consistent with one's natural feelings of caring, compassion and sympathy; are accepted by others, and do not lead to condemnation or rejection. No system of rewards and punishment are needed to enforce them (ie, heaven and hell).

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 14 2004,11:43)]i have read most of the thread, and all societies and even the "golden" rule have been influenced by one religion or another, i want to know where morallity comes from through a pure non-theist view.

I do not entirely agree with DV on this issue. I believe that morallity is derived from definitions of good and evil that are independant of absolutely anyone's opinion. However, the word 'derived' is highly significant, as there are many, many ways to interperet the nebulous good ane evil. However, I do believe that there is one 'right answer' to the question of what is good and what is evil, though we may never know what that answer is.

 

[Dark Virtue]

That would be Objective Morality (Mr. Bill) vs Subjective Morality(Me)

Correct?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Yes, I believe in objective morallity, you believe in subjective and relative morallity, and LOJ (I think) believes in the divine command theory, which claims to be objective but really isn't, as I addressed in the morallity thread.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Good, just making sure we're all on the same page

 

[Anayo]

Quote[/b] ]Let's be clear about this.

I do not use science to disprove God.

I use the scientific method to PROVE God exists.

However, I have not seen any evidence or reason to warrant the existence of God.

So I ask you these four questions.

How did you use science to prove God?

What reason do you have for believing in God?

How have you proved His existence?

How did logic lead you to God?

Quote[/b] ] Romans 1:21 FOr since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

Quote[/b] ]1st Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men....

God has also answered numerous prayers of mine. I can give you a first hand account of these if you wish.

Quote[/b] ] Psalm 103:2-6 Bless the Lord, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless His holy name! Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies, Who satisfies your mouth with good things, So that your youth is renewed like eagle's. The LORD executes righteousness and justice for all who are oppressed.

Quote[/b] ] John 15:7 If you abide in me, and My words abide in you, you will ask for what you desire and it shall be done for you.

Quote[/b] ]Morality isn't a fixed function. It is fluid, it changes and evolves along with society. Society is the author of morality. Look at different societies around the world, they are all different, thus their moralities are different. Morality begins with a single individual and grows outward following the "golden rule" principle. A principle, I might add, that is not necessarily Christian or religious in origin. The "golden rule" is the foundation upon which society builds its morality.

You have just stated the premise of anarchy.

Quote[/b] ] Judges 21:5 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

DV, do you indeed believe in Absolutes?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]
God has also answered numerous prayers of mine. I can give you a first hand account of these if you wish.

I would LOVE to hear some accounts of your prayers. I'd love to hear about the prayers that WEREN'T answered. I'm willing to bet (my eternal life) that you have more UNanswered prayers than answered.

Quote[/b] ]You have just stated the premise of anarchy.

The beginning may be similar by they take drastically different paths. Anarchy keeps the notion of the individual above all else. There is an absense of morality in anarchy. Please read my other posts, they will shed light on the situation.

For instance:

Humans are social animals who can make the greatest achievements through mutual cooperation

You can't have mutual cooperation in anarchy.