SLNT_FIR
New Member
guys, i do believe so. looking at it as if there is no god. if there is jesus, i know we aren't. we only sin when we let it. i know that and i expereiance that. x_X
Do you believe that humans are evil?
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Dark Virtue
New Member
Man does not need God to set moral boundaries.
Man is not born EVIL. Man becomes evil due to his environment.
Check out the Good vs Evil thread in this forum. All of this has already been discussed.
Man is not born EVIL. Man becomes evil due to his environment.
Check out the Good vs Evil thread in this forum. All of this has already been discussed.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
man.................... everythign i post has already been discussed. man i feel stupid. and are you SURE man is not naturally evil? pretend it was a perfect world. eventually there would be war and greed... i feel stupid for always discussing previous topics...
Dark Virtue
New Member
Corruption comes from society, not some inbred characteristic.
If you believe man is evil from birth, then back it up with some logical assumptions.
If you believe man is evil from birth, then back it up with some logical assumptions.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
is it possible to live without society? of course, not. you are saying there is a non-removable variable. not possible then to say man is good.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Say what?
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10
The question is still good
I think of the Bible as a rule book among other things. A Book to live by. Can man be good apart from Jesus? Yes, but not with Christ's righteousness. For you see, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Funny, when reading through the Ten Commandments, Proverbs, ect., even unbelievers that care to be moral, are living and abiding by those rules and Jesus' example! Our very laws are based on the Word of God.
The question is still good
I think of the Bible as a rule book among other things. A Book to live by. Can man be good apart from Jesus? Yes, but not with Christ's righteousness. For you see, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Funny, when reading through the Ten Commandments, Proverbs, ect., even unbelievers that care to be moral, are living and abiding by those rules and Jesus' example! Our very laws are based on the Word of God.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
umm... how do i respond to that? society is impossible to live without. like without other ppl THIS MAKES A COMMUNITY! it is impossible to live without one. clearer?
Dark Virtue
New Member
Much
But you still haven't made your point for claiming that Man is inherantly evil.
But you still haven't made your point for claiming that Man is inherantly evil.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
holy cow!!! marcylene stuck in a post before me! i was coming here to look at your post dv, then i scroll.... HEY HOW"D THAT GET THERE??? oh. lol. that's what i htought. he is. i have a song for you. i forgot what it's called.
-we are listenign for whispers, but we cannot hear the screams...
anyway.... that IS important for you, since ur so scientific. SCIENCE CANNOT DEFINE GOD! ok. blunt point now. ALL people have sinned. Guaranteed. Except Jesus. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLL L L L LL LL get it in ur head. that is plenty of truth. do you think man is good?
if you think so, then we SHOULD be able to get through society, while still maintaining morals.
IF NOT, then why?
-we are listenign for whispers, but we cannot hear the screams...
anyway.... that IS important for you, since ur so scientific. SCIENCE CANNOT DEFINE GOD! ok. blunt point now. ALL people have sinned. Guaranteed. Except Jesus. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLL L L L LL LL get it in ur head. that is plenty of truth. do you think man is good?
if you think so, then we SHOULD be able to get through society, while still maintaining morals.
IF NOT, then why?
Dark Virtue
New Member
Why can't science define God?
You say that ALL people have sinned. Doesn't society determine what is a sin and what isn't? You missed the question also...why is man INHERANTLY evil? In other words, why do you think man is BORN evil? I say he is not, that he is a product of his environment.
You say that ALL people have sinned. Doesn't society determine what is a sin and what isn't? You missed the question also...why is man INHERANTLY evil? In other words, why do you think man is BORN evil? I say he is not, that he is a product of his environment.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
when he is a baby he is not. then when it gets older the human get knowledge of good and evil. it is tempted and inevitably sins. and why can't science define god? cause god made science. reverse doesn't work. he is born evil, but gets evil later on. probably earliest sin for most ppl is 3. lying. i guess.
btw, what do u mean by INHERANTLY? i don't understand. my vocab fails me for once.
btw, what do u mean by INHERANTLY? i don't understand. my vocab fails me for once.
Dark Virtue
New Member
So you're saying that babies are born evil?
Inherently: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit
Inherently: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51: 5
I baby-sat recently for the most precious child you could ever know. After a morning of fun, I made certain that all his creature comforts were fulfilled. I laid him down for a nap at the instructed time. Minutes later, I heard a blood curdling scream coming from his crib. I truly was terrified. I prayed, then prepared myself for what I would see. I reasoned that there was no possible way for this little tike to be hurt in the safety of his crib. The screams were escalating...when I opened the door, he let out a coo, smiled, then held his arms out for me to pick him up! He can't even talk yet, and he, in effect had lied to me that something was terribly wrong!
Yes, we are born sinners and we have the sins of our fathers passed down through the generations.
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18 (see also Exodus 20:5)
God was willing to come to earth and be sin for me, and all those who chose not to obey Him.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. II Corinthians 5:21
The very act of questioning Him and the way in which He created me would be rebellion against Him, just as Lucifer did. Despite Him knowing that I would sin, I am joyful that I was created. He has given me such happiness! What a privilege to be given the opportunity to know the King of Kings and LORD of LORD's. Any bad comes from the hand of the enemy, the one cast down! Nevertheless, despite this fact, I am blessed and I have been blessed with promises of more to come...
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. II Corinthians 2:9
I baby-sat recently for the most precious child you could ever know. After a morning of fun, I made certain that all his creature comforts were fulfilled. I laid him down for a nap at the instructed time. Minutes later, I heard a blood curdling scream coming from his crib. I truly was terrified. I prayed, then prepared myself for what I would see. I reasoned that there was no possible way for this little tike to be hurt in the safety of his crib. The screams were escalating...when I opened the door, he let out a coo, smiled, then held his arms out for me to pick him up! He can't even talk yet, and he, in effect had lied to me that something was terribly wrong!
Yes, we are born sinners and we have the sins of our fathers passed down through the generations.
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18 (see also Exodus 20:5)
God was willing to come to earth and be sin for me, and all those who chose not to obey Him.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. II Corinthians 5:21
The very act of questioning Him and the way in which He created me would be rebellion against Him, just as Lucifer did. Despite Him knowing that I would sin, I am joyful that I was created. He has given me such happiness! What a privilege to be given the opportunity to know the King of Kings and LORD of LORD's. Any bad comes from the hand of the enemy, the one cast down! Nevertheless, despite this fact, I am blessed and I have been blessed with promises of more to come...
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. II Corinthians 2:9
Dark Virtue
New Member
Let's look at some of these verses, shall we?
Isn't this GOD'S fault? He's the one that designed procreation and slapped a label of SIN on it. How else can man procreate? Why is procreation SINFUL?
So...if your grandmother or greatgrandmother committed a crime, YOU should be the one paying for it? Oh yeah, that's fair...NOT!
Again, isn't this placing the blame squarely at God's feet? He creates sin in us and then punishes us for it?
This is a familiar theme, God sets certain things in motion and then blames US!
[b said:
Isn't this GOD'S fault? He's the one that designed procreation and slapped a label of SIN on it. How else can man procreate? Why is procreation SINFUL?
[b said:
So...if your grandmother or greatgrandmother committed a crime, YOU should be the one paying for it? Oh yeah, that's fair...NOT!
[b said:
Again, isn't this placing the blame squarely at God's feet? He creates sin in us and then punishes us for it?
This is a familiar theme, God sets certain things in motion and then blames US!
God is God. You know such is life, we don't always get multiple choices. Sheesh! Bet you voted for that other guy, Mr. Multiple choice! He did not create sin!
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13
Man, he had it all! Get the pipes? Think of the most beautiful orchestra that you have ever heard. He could literally play every not, in sync, in harmony! Fair? I would hate to think that I could not be created because an entity that had it all, chose to be god. He only took 1/3 of the angels, and while they did not have all that Lucifer had, Michael and Gabriel were there, too! They did fine, they did not rebel.
Spiritual realm, remember?
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Colossians 1:9
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. I Corinthians 2:12
You only have two distinct choices, light/dark, good/evil! In all His fairness He came to earth to save us from sin. He was beaten beyond recognition. He could have called ten thousand angels to defend Him, He could have defended Himself in a great and mighty way. We will never understand the agony. We will never understand the heartbreak of the Father's need to turn His back on Him because He could not look upon sin.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psalm 22:1
Fair? More than fair! You are echoing a group of believer's who choose to disbelieve! It is a shame! He did not have to die for those who would reject Him. It would not have been fair for him to cater to those who would reject Him not giving me the opportunity to experience life and my home in Heaven.
Yes, we sin as children, born into sin. We must come to Him humbly, as little children. He is fair.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deuteronomy 32:4
We were born under law. FAIR? Above and beyond. He came with grace and mercy as my sin.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:25
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. I John 4:10
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44
That deceiver is the one that is not fair. Yet, anyone not serving God is in his camp. Spiritual, remember? It is one or the other.
And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. Deuteronomy 8:19
Before anyone can be saved, they must realize they are sinners in need of salvation. He made it easy enough for a little child.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13
Man, he had it all! Get the pipes? Think of the most beautiful orchestra that you have ever heard. He could literally play every not, in sync, in harmony! Fair? I would hate to think that I could not be created because an entity that had it all, chose to be god. He only took 1/3 of the angels, and while they did not have all that Lucifer had, Michael and Gabriel were there, too! They did fine, they did not rebel.
Spiritual realm, remember?
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Colossians 1:9
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. I Corinthians 2:12
You only have two distinct choices, light/dark, good/evil! In all His fairness He came to earth to save us from sin. He was beaten beyond recognition. He could have called ten thousand angels to defend Him, He could have defended Himself in a great and mighty way. We will never understand the agony. We will never understand the heartbreak of the Father's need to turn His back on Him because He could not look upon sin.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psalm 22:1
Fair? More than fair! You are echoing a group of believer's who choose to disbelieve! It is a shame! He did not have to die for those who would reject Him. It would not have been fair for him to cater to those who would reject Him not giving me the opportunity to experience life and my home in Heaven.
Yes, we sin as children, born into sin. We must come to Him humbly, as little children. He is fair.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deuteronomy 32:4
We were born under law. FAIR? Above and beyond. He came with grace and mercy as my sin.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:25
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. I John 4:10
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44
That deceiver is the one that is not fair. Yet, anyone not serving God is in his camp. Spiritual, remember? It is one or the other.
And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. Deuteronomy 8:19
Before anyone can be saved, they must realize they are sinners in need of salvation. He made it easy enough for a little child.
We had a choice. I know, you do not understand that. Nevertheless, it is truth. A choice.[b said:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. Job 9:20
I do not believe that man is born evil, for I am of the belief that humans are inherently good creatures. They can be made evil of course, but only through outside influence. But to fully discuss this topic, we have to have workable definitions of both 'good' and 'evil,' and where they both come from. This was gone over in my 'What is the nature of good and evil' thread if you wanna backtrack a read a bit.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
well... lemme put it this way. humans HAVE to be evil. according to YOUR persepctive, if there are no "outside influences" then we should be good? but it is (still from your view point) IMPOSSIBLE to have NO outside influences in your life. it's like appearing in a room. you can't get out. food just appears. you live your life like that. yea, you will eventually start cursing whatever... elaborate on this.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Marcy: Fair? How can you call God's ultimatum fair? He hides in the shadows and expects us to believe in the unbelievable. If He wants us to follow Him, then why hide? Come out into the open, say this is who I am, follow me or die. End of story. THAT is fair.
SA: Why do humans HAVE to be evil?
SA: Why do humans HAVE to be evil?