Do you believe our christian views are unreasonable?

[Master~Plan]

Second, you have not shared ANY bit of evidence with me. Your "evidence" is viable for only one person: you.

not really sure where your getting this from. I have shared my experiences with many people. I can't imagine someone seeing a man miraculously healed of cancer and not sharing it with anyone... No one over the internet because of obvious reasons, but its relevant to a lot more people than me

...but you aren't able to share that evidence with anyone other than yourself,

^thats wrong, see above comment

...Again I say that if you can't share your evidence, proof or reason for belief in God with anyone else...

^again, above comment

When and where have I determined there is no God?

Is it really so hard for you to accept that there is a middle position?

Please stop putting words in my mouth. You are saying things that are untrue in order to fortify your position.

?I was responding to Eon... not sure how that is possible, I didn't say anything to/about you

Your analogy is horrible. I too, have seen people make wine, but I have yet to see someone turn water miraculously into wine.

thats probly because you came in on the tail end of me and Eons conversation, and are reading the analogy wrong. I think if you go back and read the dialogue between me and Eon, you will get it...

Oh, is that how it works? You have to be in the club to see the miracle? What's the point then?

thats correct, the point does not lie in miracles...

Pharoah didn't believe, but you can bet he saw the plagues AND the sea rushing in.

little irony, you think Pharoah seeng all those signs qualifies him as a witness of miracles? Pharoah, did not believe he saw anything special at all. He had already seen his magicians do what Moses did. He blew off Moses warning as some cheap magic trick. "thats no miraculous sign, Ive seen other people do that"

Many of those who saw Jesus's miracles were either non-believers or on the fence at the time.

Like who? There were some people in his home town who did not believe he could do any miracles, and he didn't. There was the town that asked for miracles to prove he was indeed God, and he simply gave them the sign of Jonah. I read about how people believed he was God, and he confirmed/rewarded thier faith. There are a few that saw miraculous signs out of the blue, but definately not the majority, and definatly not people who were trying to make up thier minds...

That's what miracles are FOR to convince the unconvinced..

what? convenience?
heh, well anyway I'm glad you have it all figured out

 

[Dark Virtue]

MP, I think you misread the portions of my post concerning your "evidence".

Saying that you witnessed someone completely cured of cancer is not evidence to anyone other than yourself. If this is true, why aren't there records that show that this cancer was cured? Don't you think this would be in every scientific journal?

Listen, if I told you that I had rock solid evidence to prove that the Loch Ness monster existed, would saying that be enough for you to consider my statement as hard evidence? Enough for you to believe in Nessie? Of course not.

Yet you are expecting me to believe in something that you supposedly saw just on your word alone? Let's say that I have no doubt in your honesty and sincerity...that still leaves a HUGE window of error open. You have given me no facts, no charts, no samples, NOTHING.

If you tell me that you looked out your window this morning and saw a red sports car go down your street, I would believe you without hesitation.

BUT, if you start telling me outrageous things, I will need outrageous amounts of evidence to believe you.

 

[Master~Plan]

Saying that you witnessed someone completely cured of cancer is not evidence to anyone other than yourself. If this is true, why aren't there records that show that this cancer was cured? Don't you think this would be in every scientific journal?

There are records that show that the cancer was cured... So that pretty much means its evidence to a lot more people than myself, like I mentioned earlier
You think it should be in every scientific journal? Before I remember you were pushing the idea of 'freethinker'. A miracle is not possible to a 'freethinker' because it involves God. Anyway it wasn't in any journal or magazine. Society at a whole isn't interested in God I guess.

Listen, if I told you that I had rock solid evidence to prove that the Loch Ness monster existed, would saying that be enough for you to consider my statement as hard evidence? Enough for you to believe in Nessie? Of course not.

Start a thread 'Do you believe my loch ness monster faith unreasonable?'
If you have rock solid evidence of a loch ness monster, I would say your perfectly reasonable....

Yet you are expecting me to believe in something that you supposedly saw just on your word alone? Let's say that I have no doubt in your honesty and sincerity...that still leaves a HUGE window of error open. You have given me no facts, no charts, no samples, NOTHING.

Call me a liar/ whatever, like I said earlier, the point of the whole thread eludes you. This thread is about my beliefs. Doesn't really matter if your convinced or not

If you tell me that you looked out your window this morning and saw a red sports car go down your street, I would believe you without hesitation.

BUT, if you start telling me outrageous things, I will need outrageous amounts of evidence to believe you.

I know your trying to be reasonable, but in all actuality we all believe what we choose
You don't have outlandish amounts of evidence supporting anything. So call yourself a nhilist and tell me if it works for you. I have been given outlandish amounts of evidence of God. take it for what its worth

 

[Dark Virtue]

There are records that show that the cancer was cured... So that pretty much means its evidence to a lot more people than myself, like I mentioned earlier
You think it should be in every scientific journal? Before I remember you were pushing the idea of 'freethinker'. A miracle is not possible to a 'freethinker' because it involves God. Anyway it wasn't in any journal or magazine. Society at a whole isn't interested in God I guess.

Where are these records? I, for one, would love to see them, let alone MILLIONS of Christians that would use it as proof.

You can't tell me this is the ONLY person God has miraculously healed. Surely someone, somewhere has hard, factual evidence.

Let's see it.

Start a thread 'Do you believe my loch ness monster faith unreasonable?'
If you have rock solid evidence of a loch ness monster, I would say your perfectly reasonable....

I DO have rock solid evidence.

But shucks, I can't share it with you, you will just have to take my word for it.

Yes, this thread is about YOUR beliefs. What about your beliefs? Whether or not we find them reasonable. What's the title of this thread? Do you believe our christian views are unreasonable?

I could understand your discourteous attitude if you had started this thread, but you didn't.

I know your trying to be reasonable, but in all actuality we all believe what we choose

Again, you mistake is that this discussion isn't about what you choose to believe, it's about whether or not thoese beliefs are reasonable.

Reasonable meaning being in accordance with reason; having a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense.

You don't have outlandish amounts of evidence supporting anything.

FINALLY we agree on something. THAT is why I am an atheist, remember?

So call yourself a nhilist and tell me if it works for you.

What the heck does this have to do with anything?

I have been given outlandish amounts of evidence of God. take it for what its worth

GREAT! LOVELY! And that helps me how? Evidence is defined as something that furnishes proof. Proof is defined as the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact. If you can't share this evidence or proof with anyone other than yourself, it can not be considered REASONABLE. Hence, the title of this thread.

 

[Shyfroggy]

proof

As a Christian, here is the proof/evidence that I go on...

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:10, 23). Sin separates man from God and leads him to death. (James 1:15; Rom.8:6, 7) God the Father because His love sent His Son Jesus to save us from the power of sin (John 3:16, 1 Peter 2:24). God forgives sin through Jesus' blood by His grace and through faith (Eph. 1:7; 2:7, 8). Our sin nature is buried with Christ and we are made alive to God in the resurrection of a new creation in Christ Jesus. (Acts 2:38, 39; Rom. 6:3-11; 10:9-13; Titus 3:5-7) As we walk in the light of God's word and the Holy Spirit we are continually cleansed by the blood, the Word and the Spirit. (1 John 1:7-9; Rom. 8:12) We need to grow in maturity (1 Peter 2:1, 2; Col. 1:28,29). We fight in God's power against temptation, endure persecution, and add moral excellence (2 Peter 1:3-11). We develop in humility and love. (Phil. 2:5-16) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:23). We shall live in the city of gold. (Rev. 21:18-21)

 

[Master~Plan]

DV-
If you have rock solid evidence for the belief in the loch ness monster, then you are reasonable in believeing so. I don't have to believe in the loch ness monster, but I can still understand the concept of a belief based on rock solid evidence.

(just as a pointless sidenote, a nhilist is someone who says we can know nothing, not sure why you missed the corrilation)

for obvious reasons, no, I will not spew my friends personal information over the internet. the whole point of me sharing was not to convince you of anything the whole point was to show you why my faith is reasonable.

Anyway this whole discussion has digressed, and your latest post is over the top. we are parting ways

 

[Dark Virtue]

As a Christian, here is the proof/evidence that I go on...

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:10, 23). Sin separates man from God and leads him to death. (James 1:15; Rom.8:6, 7) God the Father because His love sent His Son Jesus to save us from the power of sin (John 3:16, 1 Peter 2:24). God forgives sin through Jesus' blood by His grace and through faith (Eph. 1:7; 2:7, 8). Our sin nature is buried with Christ and we are made alive to God in the resurrection of a new creation in Christ Jesus. (Acts 2:38, 39; Rom. 6:3-11; 10:9-13; Titus 3:5-7) As we walk in the light of God's word and the Holy Spirit we are continually cleansed by the blood, the Word and the Spirit. (1 John 1:7-9; Rom. 8:12) We need to grow in maturity (1 Peter 2:1, 2; Col. 1:28,29). We fight in God's power against temptation, endure persecution, and add moral excellence (2 Peter 1:3-11). We develop in humility and love. (Phil. 2:5-16) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:23). We shall live in the city of gold. (Rev. 21:18-21)

How is that proof or evidence?

If you use the bible as proof, then you have made every other religious text proof for other religions as well.

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV-
If you have rock solid evidence for the belief in the loch ness monster, then you are reasonable in believeing so. I don't have to believe in the loch ness monster, but I can still understand the concept of a belief based on rock solid evidence.

My point has been that if I had "rock solid evidence" then I could use that evidence to convince someone else of Nessie's existence. If I couldn't do that, then it's not proof or evidence.

(just as a pointless sidenote, a nhilist is someone who says we can know nothing, not sure why you missed the corrilation)

I missed the correlation because that is NOT the definition of what a nihilist is.

From Wikipedia: Nihilism as a philosophical position argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally believe all of the following: God doesn't exist, traditional morality is false, and secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has no meaning, and no action is preferable to any other.

Again from Wikipedia: Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth or falsity of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God or gods—is unknown, unknowable, or incoherent. Some agnostics infer from this that these claims are irrelevant to life

So once again, you have been proven wrong. Now...are you willing to admit to it?

This has been your problem all along, you are missusing terms and associating incorrect definitions to them.

[quoe]for obvious reasons, no, I will not spew my friends personal information over the internet. the whole point of me sharing was not to convince you of anything the whole point was to show you why my faith is reasonable.[/quote]

You missed the part about other people being miraculously cured and no one coming forward with proof of those healings either.

I understand your point, but it does nothing to prove why your faith is reasonable because you haven't proved what you said you saw. Now...if you were a doctor, someone trained in the medical field and had access to all his records and actually studied them, that would be a different thing entirely. But that's not the case, is it?

Anyway this whole discussion has digressed, and your latest post is over the top. we are parting ways

I'll take that to mean that I'm right and you have no wish to admit you are wrong

 

[Eon]

Froggy, I'm not being snippy - but quotes from the bible aren't proof of anything other than the inclusion of said verses and concepts in Christian Doctrine.

I'm not going to get argumentative (even though I've just watched Dogma again and that film always makes me fighting mad) but a book is too easily changed for me to put much stock in it.

 

[Avesther]

Probably OT by now:

I think the Christian Religion and Christian world view is unreasonable to those who haven't, don't or won't accept it. Its completely foreign and backwards to the human condition.

 

[Grand Master]

I wanted to comment on what I would consider a miracle. A miracle would be something like having your arm amputated and then growing a new one in a day. The examples that Christians like to talk about are weak and unsubstantiated. A miracle has to be something amazing that cannot be explained and defies present knowledge and experience.

 

[Grand Master]

test

 

[Dark Virtue]

Probably OT by now:

I think the Christian Religion and Christian world view is unreasonable to those who haven't, don't or won't accept it. Its completely foreign and backwards to the human condition.

Can't you say that about ANY religion though?

I'm pretty sure you feel the same way about any other religion, don't you? Otherwise, you would be a part of that religion.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I wanted to comment on what I would consider a miracle. A miracle would be something like having your arm amputated and then growing a new one in a day. The examples that Christians like to talk about are weak and unsubstantiated. A miracle has to be something amazing that cannot be explained and defies present knowledge and experience.

You may want to check out this webpage:

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

 

[freon]

You may want to check out this webpage:

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

DV, that is an interesting link.

Understanding delusion was one article I found that is making me think.

The Challenge is quite provokative. How do Christians respond to something like that?

Why won't God heal amputees if he is answering all these other prayers? It seems like a good question.

 

[ChickenSoup]

I wanted to comment on what I would consider a miracle. A miracle would be something like having your arm amputated and then growing a new one in a day. The examples that Christians like to talk about are weak and unsubstantiated. A miracle has to be something amazing that cannot be explained and defies present knowledge and experience.

Ok, a man that visited my church can speak *very very well* with NO vocal chords, can sing, etc., etc., and he brought proof (xrays and such).

care to explain?

 

[Avesther]

Can't you say that about ANY religion though?

I'm pretty sure you feel the same way about any other religion, don't you? Otherwise, you would be a part of that religion.

I'm sure you could, but who cares when we aren't talking about other religions.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ok, a man that visited my church can speak *very very well* with NO vocal chords, can sing, etc., etc., and he brought proof (xrays and such).

care to explain?

How do we KNOW he has no vocal chords?

Did you personally look at the xrays? Are you medically trained enough to understand them. How do you know they were his?

CS, if this was, indeed, a miracle, why isn't his story in any medical journals?

Until you can supply us with SOME sort of proof, it's all hearsay, anecdotal evidence.

You see the problem we are dealing with?

I would also like your thoughts on the whole amputee thing.

Why does God not heal amputees or cleft pallettes of children? Why does God not perform any physical healings that have obvious, physical affects?

 

[ChickenSoup]

Why does God not heal amputees or cleft pallettes of children? Why does God not perform any physical healings that have obvious, physical affects?

I don't know, see, I'm 14

Yes I did see the medical xrays and there was a doctor there to explain it.

CS, if this was, indeed, a miracle, why isn't his story in any medical journals?

Because most doctors wouldn't record a man who claims to have been healed by God, I suppose. And how do you know it WASN'T? It was quite a while ago. I will try to find that site for you.



And besides, half the stuff with evolution is anecdotal, so don't say that. So many assumings and probablys and such.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I'm sure you could, but who cares when we aren't talking about other religions.

There's no need to be narrowminded.

If you take religion as a whole, you would see that Christianity is no different than any other religion.

But then again, you don't want to hear that, do you?