Did the Biblical Jesus exist?

[mpty]

Quote[/b] ] But it's not the only way, and it's not the only guide book around.

The Bible is the only book that shows you the true way to become saved... Not the Koran, or anything else.

 

[mrwitch]

mpty: That's a pretty short sighted view on life. How do you know the bible is true?

You know most of the bible, as I mentioned before, come from earlier religions, and made to conform into monotheist thought.

So, I guess you can say, based on your statement, that earlier religions are based in truth.

The Koran, is a mirror image of the bible. All the characters in the bible are in the Koran. With the exception of mohammed. So if you're knocking the Koran, you're more or less knocking the bible as well.

 

[Medjai]

Actually Mr. Witch, good old Dyrwin at the AN seems to have this to say about Josephus:
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Josephus has not only nothing to do with the Bible, but is blatantly false

James-site info

Quote[/b] ]In this passage Josephus is talking about machinations to secure the high priesthood. Ananus comes from a dynasty of high priests. We have a passing, almost blasé, reference to someone called James, whom Joseph obviously considers a minor character:

"... when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."

Some translations, to preserve a more 'authentic' tone, have Josephus write "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ".

But if we read on, in the same paragraph, Josephus tells us that there were appeals to the new procurator (not over the stoning of James but because of the calling of the Sanhedrin by Ananus!) and:

"... Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest."

Josephus tells us precisely who James is the brother of – Jesus bar Damneus!

If you drop the spurious clause about "being called the Christ", doubtless inserted by a Christian editor, then this James would have been the brother of the guy who eventually made high priest because of James' execution! Moreover, the reference to "Christ" here relies on the thoroughly discredited "explanation" of the term inserted in chapter 18! (Testimonium Flavianum)

(emphasis added)
I do believe it was because of "James" that Jesus is supposedly credited with being in the Josephus text's, if I am mistaken, poor me. Looks good enough though.
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All of the writing within the "----------" is that of Dyrwyn's.

 

[CCGR]

Quote[/b] (mrwitch @ Sep. 19 2003,12:42)]The Koran, is a mirror image of the bible.  All the characters in the bible are in the Koran.  With the exception of mohammed.  So if you're knocking the Koran, you're more or less knocking the bible as well.

The Koran is inspired by the Bible and has as imilar Old Testament but there are some big changes. It's not a mirror image.

 

[mrwitch]

You have a few subtle changes, such as moses striking the rock, rather than speaking to it.

That's all you've got? You have nothing else to address, with what I've said?

Facinating....

 

[mrwitch]

Medjai: Good point about Josehpus. In any event, his writings are highly questionable.

 

[major]

There are very few people out there that know their stuff that would say Jesus never existed.  Muslims and Jews will admit that he did exist and how could so many millions or possibly billions of people get to know him if he never existed, that would be one big madeup man.  Also, if you are a Christian you can feel him, you know He's there.  There's nothing that can disprove that in my mind.

And a little side note, the Koran says the name Jesus more than it says Mohammad, isn't that interesting, I dont' know if that's completely true, it's just what I have heard.

 

[mrwitch]

major: If jesus existed, he existed 2,000 years ago. And it was those people who knew him. If he existed.

In all my years as a christian, I have never felt the presence or the spirit of Jesus. I was surrounded by people who told me I should. But, I never did.

I always get a kick out of christians who say they are "witnessing" to christ. And then speak of events in the bible, as if they were there. As if they know it was true.

Hey look, if you want to live by this leap of faith, fine. But that's all it is, a leap of faith. You're not really a witness to anything other here-say.

And the feelings you have within you, are one of 2 things:
either a result of mind conditioning, or a bad case of indigestion.

I'm always amazed how some people can break beyond the bonds of mythology, while others remain in their chains, even when the key to unlock them stares them in the face.

I guess you can say there is such a thing as gargoyles, or trolls. Because threre are so many books written on them, with testiments on what gargoyles and trolls can do.

I guess you can feel the presence of gargoyles and trolls, if you wanted to.

But... why?

 

[major]

lol gargoyles do exist, i have been to europe and many cathedials have them, now do they come alive, no, thats just an urban legend.  And you know, just because you haven't felt God doesn't mean others haven't felt God.  Every major religion agrees that Jesus was alive at one time, its just if they believe he rose the from the dead or not.

And how would a man that never existed make so much change in the world? You might say well, theres a lot of Buddist and muslims and my response to that is because Muhhammad and Buddah really did exist just as Jesus did.

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (mrwitch @ Sep. 19 2003,5:38)]In all my years as a christian, I have never felt the presence or the spirit of Jesus.  I was surrounded by people who told me I should.  But, I never did.

That first sentence is a nice little oxymoron.

We're told in Scripture that anyone who accepts Christ and is baptized in His name recieves the Spirit of God. Plain and simple. So the only conclusion I can draw is that you aren't really a Christian and/or you haven't put your faith in Him...

 

[CCGR]

Here is a link showing the differences between the Bible and the Qur'an.
http://www.carm.org/islam/Bible_koran_diff.htm

they belive in 1 God, Jesus was not his son, they believe he did not rise from the dead, no miracles performaed, salvation is through works, their version also excludes prophesies.

now if this was a mirror image wouldn't the theology coincide? apparently there is more than just added characters, they are changing the characteristics of God and dissing what Christianity stands for----->Jesus!

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Actually mrwitch, I can knock the Koran and easily avoid knocking the Bible. Why? Because they are far from one and the same. Here are some passages of the Koran I want you to read, and then you tell me if the Bible and the Koran are one and the same...
1. Qur'an 4:48 "Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin."
2. Qur'an 6:141 "He it is Who produceth gardens trellised and untrellised, and the date-palm, and crops of divers flavour, and the olive and the pomegranate, like and unlike. Eat ye of the fruit thereof when it fruiteth, and pay the due thereof upon the harvest day, and be not prodigal. Lo! Allah loveth not the prodigals."

Qur'an 7:31 "O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment at every place of worship, and eat and drink, but be not prodigal. Lo! He loveth not the prodigals."

3. Qur'an 1:6-7 "Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray."

4. Qur'an 4:107 "And do not plead on behalf of those who act unfaithfully to their souls; surely Allah does not love him who is treacherous, sinful;"

5. Qur'an 4:110 "And whoever does evil or acts unjustly to his soul, then asks forgiveness of Allah, he shall find Allah Forgiving, Merciful." (I love that)

6. Qur'an 4:168-169 "Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way--except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy."
Qur'an 7:180 "The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names: for what they do, they will soon be requited."

7. Qur'an 7:8-9 "And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful; And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our communications."

Qur'an 21:47 "And We will set up a just balance on the day of resurrection, so no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least; and though there be the weight of a grain of mustard seed, (yet) will We bring it, and sufficient are We to take account."

Allah God? Ashcroft good.

 

[timor]

lol

I once clicked a link to a Muslim board where a fellow infidel (infidelguy.com), a prior Muslim, had posted a very long and researched essay demolishing the Koran as the Word of God. I wasn't too interesting, but I did peek around a bit at some of the real Muslims' responses, and it's funny to see how Muslims and Christians respond in almost the exact same ways to attacks at their faiths, be in on the existance of their God, the validity of their holy book, etc. BTW guys, those Muslims feel Allah's presence, too.

And ancient Greeks often claimed to have seen their gods come down from Mt. Olympus.

*shrug*

 

[mrwitch]

Quote[/b] (major @ Sep. 20 2003,8:49)]lol gargoyles do exist, i have been to europe and many cathedials have them, now do they come alive, no, thats just an urban legend.  And you know, just because you haven't felt God doesn't mean others haven't felt God.  Every major religion agrees that Jesus was alive at one time, its just if they believe he rose the from the dead or not.

And how would a man that never existed make so much change in the world?  You might say well, theres a lot of Buddist and muslims and my response to that is because Muhhammad and Buddah really did exist just as Jesus did.

That's not what I meant about gargoyles and you it. My point is, you rely on the bible as proof to the existence of a god, or as to be the truth.

Yet, you deny other possibilities. In a sense, you atheistic to other gods, and beliefs. I do not know how you can conclude that your bible is right and every other religious scripture and religion is wrong.

That is a very arrogant point of view, and is not arrogance a deadly sin?

 

[major]

I personally have never talked to or heard of a Muslim that said they felt God's presence, but I have talked to converted muslims that say they now feel God and didn't before.

LOL U MAKE ME SICK!!!
You say my religion is wrong, and that i should worship other religions, then you say my view is arrogant and that is a sin.  You must not know the Bible at all,  "Thou shalt have no other God before me."  It is not called stuborness or arogance, its called finding the truth and stickin with it.
Lets say you were the first to find out that the earth is round and no one else believed you.  Should you believe others that say the earth is flat even though you know for a fact its round.  No, that's foolishness.

P.S. All sin is deadly, its kinda like saying, that is a big, large building. Theirs no reason to say it twice.

 

[mrwitch]

Quote[/b] (TastyWheat @ Sep. 20 2003,9:20)]

Quote[/b] (mrwitch @ Sep. 19 2003,5:38)]In all my years as a christian, I have never felt the presence or the spirit of Jesus.  I was surrounded by people who told me I should.  But, I never did.

That first sentence is a nice little oxymoron.

We're told in Scripture that anyone who accepts Christ and is baptized in His name recieves the Spirit of God.  Plain and simple.  So the only conclusion I can draw is that you aren't really a Christian and/or you haven't put your faith in Him...

I'm always amused by christians who write off other christians. It's so funny how you all read the same book, yet draw different conclusions, and end up at each others throats. To me, that's moronic, without the oxy.

Hey look you can go by the bible all you want for all I care, it's your life. But just because it's written down, and you and millions of others believe in it, does not mean that it is true.

Maybe Jesus existed, maybe he didn't. To me that's apples and oranges. The problem is with christians, is there has to be that magic, that spirituality. Which in a way is a shame.

Because there are many parts of the bible which teaches a great deal about life, and how to go about life. But you can't accpet it for just the teachings. There has to be that... magical spirituality, otherwise it's no good.

See, I can agree with many of the bible's lessons, without the spiritual aspect. And I was baptized a christian, and raised as one.

But, that was in the past. I have come to realize that all religions are basically the same, in nature. I have more or less written it all off.

Now, religion to me, nothing more than make believe for adults. And I'm too old, for make believe.

You grow up to realize there is no santa clause, there is no tooth fairy, or boogy man. But we hang on to the god belief, for one reason, and one reason only. Because we want to live... forever. And you'll do what you feel is needed to be done, in order to accomplish that finally goal.

But, that doesn't mean it's actually going to happen.

 

[mrwitch]

CCGR: My point, has always been there are other ways to live one's life other than that of the bible's teachings.

And dispite the differences between Yaweh, Jahovah and Allah, you are basically dealing with the god which sprang from the mind of Abraham.

And believe it or not, you can live a decent life without any gods... at all.

 

[mrwitch]

Ultima Avatar: I'm impressed that you are so well verse in the Koran.

However, I'm still waiting for you to explain to me, how you studied, that, which can't be seen.

 

[mrwitch]

major:  I don't know where you come off with that? My points have been simple:

There are other ways to live one's life other than yours.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, and you can say the same for me.

However, christianity has had 2,000 years to prove their bold claims. And in the end all one can say, is I don't know, and neither do you.

Plain and simple.

 

[CCGR]

Quote[/b] ]And believe it or not, you can live a decent life without any gods... at all.

I have no doubt of that. You don't have to be Christian to be a good person. I know real nice non-Christians and some real nasty people that say they are Christian. There are no guarantees in life.

Becoming Christian or beliving in a faith helps people fill in a void of wondering where they come from, why they exist and what happens after you die. Some people aren't satisfied with you take a dirt nap, lights out, game over.