Dear DV,

M

Marcylene

New Member
I have asked you in several threads and I would truly like to know...do you see a difference in Christians? If not, there are things that we need to change. He tells us not to hide our light under a bushel...I am in hopes that we show that light. I am in hopes that when non-Christian looks at any Christian he would see something that would be desirable in us. I think I can see what Bill Gothard spoke of as a light that shines through the eyes. I believe that I see a difference in my brothers and sisters in Christ when their fruit is apparent.
In addition, I wanted to share something with you that I have been pondering for some time. You oftentimes speak of the things that God has done that you feel shows no love. I have been thinking of His greatest Love being that on the Cross carrying the sins of every person that has/will ever be created. Such pain I can never imagine! It was then, if we were to question, that He could have unleashed His Great Power and destroyed them all. He could have come down from the Cross and decided not to pay for our sins. He could have testified to His not being guilty and thought that we were simply not worth it. Yet, He was as a Lamb for the slaughter. I feel He knew this from the beginning, and in order to give us our free will, He knew He would have to make that Sacrifice for us. It was the way that it had to be.
I also think of Him wooing you, for I know in His Love, Grace and Faithfulness, He is bound to do just that. I think of the many who have witnessed to you, and the many prayers that are prayed on you behalf. I see this to God's wooing in your life. This makes me ponder something that I think everyone has gone through in their lives and that is possibly for a lesson in Love. Who has not had their love shunned at some point in time? The one who loves is simply desiring to spend a lifetime showing that love, yet they are rejected. This is what we do to Christ in a much more dramatic way seeing that we can never fully comprehend His Great Love.
You have been a blessing to us for you get us to think of why we believe what we believe and obey God in learning to give a reason for the hope that lies within us, and for that, I want to thank you.
 
What do you mean by a difference?

Do I see a difference between Christians and other followers of various theologies? No.

Do I see a difference between Christians and nontheists, a light shining in the eyes? No.

Being a Christian doesn't make you better than anyone else. It doesn't mean your morals are better than nontheists. It doesn't mean you live a better life on this earth than anyone else.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by your question, but no, I don't see any difference between your theology and someone else's. Find me a Christian of high moral standing and I can find you an equally moral infidel. Find me a degenerate nontheist and I can find you an equally perverse Christian.

We are ALL THE SAME. The difference is that the theist believes they are better.
 
hescominsoon said:
Interesting. I never thought i was better than anyone else. Far from it. The difference is we are forgiven through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Not everyone takes kindly to being threatened with eternal damnation and hellfire.

Remember, we're talking in generalties, not about YOU specifically.

If you've never encountered a "holier than thou" attitude, count yourself lucky.
 
Dark Virtue said:
We are ALL THE SAME. The difference is that the theist believes they are better.
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Umm, that really isn't fair, DV. For there are those in all walks of life that deal with feelings of superiority, or that treat different men differently, both are wrong! I assure you, the Christian is no better, that is correct, and may have to deal with the same feelings...only, they get a Spiritual whippin' and lesson for how to handle their pride!!!

I knew in asking you there would be no mincing of words! I ask for several reasons. Honestly, first and foremost that you could take note and be helped in your search! I think there was a time before I was a Christian that I could see a difference in Christians in general, and knew that they had something inside that I could not put my finger on. Peace, joy, hope, love,...still not certain. While I feel that I see this in Christian's now, I know that now my opinion is of course, biased. In addition, I am at times disappointed by the actions of others and I realize that there are very moral people that outshine me. That is dangerous ground, for those morally upright may have a more difficult time seeing the need for Jesus. I think it is those that see that Christians are not perfect, forget that the Church is a "hospital" if you will. If the church were perfect, they would not allow me in! In addition, in times of disappointment, I have to take an inner look at myself, am I like the man who beat upon his breast proclaiming that he is not like other men? It is at that moment I realize by the Light of the life of Jesus and His Love, I am far removed from what I should be in Christ. Looking at the saints of the Bible, they were not perfect, either. Still, I struggle with Paul in the lines that he penned that bring out the empathy in me, they are confusing, yet I perfectly understand! Preacher once said that we have a good dog and bad dog warring within us. It is the one that we feed the most that will win. I feel Paul's pain here and understand:
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: For what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is not more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 8:14-25
 
hescominsoon said:
The difference is..it's not a threat but a promise. Wether you believe it or not..it's the truth. That's just the way it is.
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Thanks for proving my point.

EVERY religion believes that THEY are the ones that are right, the ones with the CORRECT answer.

So yes, there's a holier than thou attitude, not only from Christians, but theists in general.

Whether YOU believe it or not, you are not following a truth, you are following a BELIEF, and they are two very different things.
 
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Marcylene said:
Umm, that really isn't fair, DV. For there are those in all walks of life that deal with feelings of superiority, or that treat different men differently, both are wrong! I assure you, the Christian is no better, that is correct, and may have to deal with the same feelings...only, they get a Spiritual whippin' and lesson for how to handle their pride!!!
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Hey, you asked, I answered.

As I said, we are all equal, but it has been my experience that the majority of Christians carry a certain haughtiness that they try to conceal with false humility. It's hard to be humble when you count yourself in the minority as God's chosen. Not only against nonChristians, but also amongst their fellow Christians. Just look at our threads on "true" Christians. It all comes down to an "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. Note that I am not saying that ALL Christians are like this, but a great many that I have met in my life fit this mold.

I knew in asking you there would be no mincing of words! I ask for several reasons. Honestly, first and foremost that you could take note and be helped in your search! I think there was a time before I was a Christian that I could see a difference in Christians in general, and knew that they had something inside that I could not put my finger on. Peace, joy, hope, love,...still not certain. While I feel that I see this in Christian's now, I know that now my opinion is of course, biased. In addition, I am at times disappointed by the actions of others and I realize that there are very moral people that outshine me. That is dangerous ground, for those morally upright may have a more difficult time seeing the need for Jesus. I think it is those that see that Christians are not perfect, forget that the Church is a "hospital" if you will. If the church were perfect, they would not allow me in! In addition, in times of disappointment, I have to take an inner look at myself, am I like the man who beat upon his breast proclaiming that he is not like other men? It is at that moment I realize by the Light of the life of Jesus and His Love, I am far removed from what I should be in Christ. Looking at the saints of the Bible, they were not perfect, either. Still, I struggle with Paul in the lines that he penned that bring out the empathy in me, they are confusing, yet I perfectly understand! Preacher once said that we have a good dog and bad dog warring within us. It is the one that we feed the most that will win. I feel Paul's pain here and understand:
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: For what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is not more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 8:14-25
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Dont misunderstand me, I'm not holding Christians to a Christ level of perfection. I am merely pointing out an observation that I have noticed during and after my time as a Christian. It's an unavoidable truth that is rampant and clearly evident to those that don't mind looking the truth straight in the eyes.

I could go on to list several examples of what I mean, but I know you aren't dumb. I know you see it yourselves. Maybe not in yourself, but in those around you, those in your church and those in other churches and other denominations.
 
In the interest of being open and honest...and with the knowledge that you have of Christianity is there anything that we could do to better show Christ's love to you and others?
 
Genesis1315 said:
In the interest of being open and honest...and with the knowledge that you have of Christianity is there anything that we could do to better show Christ's love to you and others?
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Easier said than done, but the ONE thing that would make a huge difference is for Christianity to clean up its own backyard before it starts pointing fingers.

If Christians stopped infighting and showed a unified front, it would go a long way to improve its image to nonChristians.
 
By here I assume you mean the board.

There's such a small portion of Christianity represented here, I don't think it's fair to call the members here an accurate representation of Christianity in general.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Easier said than done, but the ONE thing that would make a huge difference is for Christianity to clean up its own backyard before it starts pointing fingers.

If Christians stopped infighting and showed a unified front, it would go a long way to improve its image to nonChristians.
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Agreed!
 
"I don't think it's fair to call the members here an accurate representation of Christianity in general." how so? i know that we have almost every denomination here, myself would have decent knowlege on baptists and pentacostal beliefs and we have others who can vouch for the others.
 
Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that most of the atheists I have met have a "smarter than thou" attitude as well, as if I haven't fully considered both sides of the coin? ;)

Easier said than done, but the ONE thing that would make a huge difference is for Christianity to clean up its own backyard before it starts pointing fingers.
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100% agreement.

One other thing to add-- the truth, no matter how absolute, is repulsive if it is not presented in a spirit of love. Too often Christians either present the truth harshly (street evangelism?), driving folks away, or we are too worried about being considered offensive (workplace maybe?), and the message is avoided. There is a very fine line there that is easy to miss.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Not everyone takes kindly to being threatened with eternal damnation and hellfire.

Remember, we're talking in generalties, not about YOU specifically.

If you've never encountered a "holier than thou" attitude, count yourself lucky.
Click to expand...
It's not really a threat. He made you and He wants to have a relationship with you. If you choose to ignore Him and live your life as if you had somehow created yourself then you will spend eternity without Him. He isn't threatning anyone, DV. God doesn't want you to be scared into loving Him.
 
Atown said:
"I don't think it's fair to call the members here an accurate representation of Christianity in general." how so? i know that we have almost every denomination here, myself would have decent knowlege on baptists and pentacostal beliefs and we have others who can vouch for the others.
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While there may be a wide range of Christians as members, there isn't a wide range of Christians actively represented in the Religious Discussion forum.

Catholics make up the largest percentage of Christians, yet I don't know of an active poster in this forum.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that most of the atheists I have met have a "smarter than thou" attitude as well, as if I haven't fully considered both sides of the coin? ;)



100% agreement.

One other thing to add-- the truth, no matter how absolute, is repulsive if it is not presented in a spirit of love. Too often Christians either present the truth harshly (street evangelism?), driving folks away, or we are too worried about being considered offensive (workplace maybe?), and the message is avoided. There is a very fine line there that is easy to miss.
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I don't believe that truth can be repulsive. The problem is that Christians believe they have the truth, when in reality, they do not. They may BELIEVE they do, but that is not the same as actually having it. It's with that stance that makes things even more offensive to those with a dissenting opinion.

BTW, I'd be interested to know if those atheists with bad attitudes were strong atheists (those that firmly believe there is no god).
 
Mr_Slice said:
It's not really a threat. He made you and He wants to have a relationship with you. If you choose to ignore Him and live your life as if you had somehow created yourself then you will spend eternity without Him. He isn't threatning anyone, DV. God doesn't want you to be scared into loving Him.
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Then why doesn't God just show himself to me and all those nonbelievers?

My point, however, was not about God making threats, but his FOLLOWERS that threaten nonChristians with threats of hellfire and damnation.

Although I'd be more than happy to participate in a thread regarding God's threats :)
 
Dark Virtue said:
I don't believe that truth can be repulsive. The problem is that Christians believe they have the truth, when in reality, they do not. They may BELIEVE they do, but that is not the same as actually having it. It's with that stance that makes things even more offensive to those with a dissenting opinion.

BTW, I'd be interested to know if those atheists with bad attitudes were strong atheists (those that firmly believe there is no god).
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I disagree. If some random joker walks up to me and tells me, "Is that your picture on the 'save the whales' bumper sticker? Lose some weight, tubby!", I'm going to be repulsed by the truth that I do need to lose some weight, and I'm going to be that much more likely to marginalize what was said because of the tone. But, if someone I cared about came to me and said, "Listen, I'm concerned about your health. Here's the number of a free weight loss clinic. All you have to do is call, and if you don't, I won't hold it against you," I will be a lot more likely to respond to that genuine caring.

Too often Christians accuse (while having a plank in their own eye, no less) rather than exhort their neighbors.

As far as the weak vs. strong atheists, well, frankly, I should ask that question more often.
 
Dark Virtue said:
BTW, I'd be interested to know if those atheists with bad attitudes were strong atheists (those that firmly believe there is no god).
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Ok, you need to clear something up here. You have stated before that you are a weak atheist, as opposed to a strong atheist.
The definition of atheist is :
one who believes that there is no deity
There has to be some black and white here and no gray. You either believe there is or believe there isnt a higher power. There are no such things as strong or weak believers, although some may say otherwise. You either do or dont believe that Jesus died for your sins. There are people who are strong in there faith and others weak, but both still believe that Christ is there saviour. Since you have been around these boards for as long as you have we have had many discussions some agreements, some disagreements. You like to call poeple out on thier beliefs, so im gonna call you out on yours. Which is it DV? Do you believe 100% that there is no God, or 100% that there is a God? As for the "Holier than thou" crowd, that same thing goes for atheists BIG time. That is why the ACLU is either loved or hated. I have had discussions with atheist's about there beliefs only to have them laugh in my face! I have never seen a christian do that to anyone else, not to say its not happened, but I would have to say that the shoe fits much better on the atheists foot. You have been seeking answers to many questions, or perhaps you havent and have just wanted to get inside the head of a believer. Either way you have been presented with many facets of the Truth. The Bible is the only self authenticating scripture. God made it that way for a reason so it would stand the test of time and be relevant for ALL generations. No other religion can claim forknowledge of future events with 100% certainty, that is why Jesus gave us prophecy. Sure Nostradamus sounds kinda close, but is open to WIDE interpretation. Im know you will say the same about the Bible, but all of the prophecies have been 100% accurate. Seek and you shall find, we have been told. God is not that hard to find, but you have to WANT to find him. Sure it can be nice to go through life with no higher power to answer too for your transgressions, but that is not the way things are. Thankfully we have a God who is willing to forgive our screw-ups and put them behind us to give us a fresh start.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
I disagree. If some random joker walks up to me and tells me, "Is that your picture on the 'save the whales' bumper sticker? Lose some weight, tubby!", I'm going to be repulsed by the truth that I do need to lose some weight, and I'm going to be that much more likely to marginalize what was said because of the tone. But, if someone I cared about came to me and said, "Listen, I'm concerned about your health. Here's the number of a free weight loss clinic. All you have to do is call, and if you don't, I won't hold it against you," I will be a lot more likely to respond to that genuine caring.

Too often Christians accuse (while having a plank in their own eye, no less) rather than exhort their neighbors.

As far as the weak vs. strong atheists, well, frankly, I should ask that question more often.
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Good point :)

The main problem I have is with the misuse of the term TRUTH.
 
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